[LazyJim]

Discussion following another thread: Do you validate your markup?

Review the relevant quotes from there below and please submit your opinions and experiences.

Originally Posted by GeorgeB

Here's my conspiracy theory, read if you care...
Not to knock people who design for a living but... I think a huge reason and source of a lot of the money behind pushing web standards is that once you make it so valid code becomes important to all webmasters and SEOs (which i'm sorry but right now, it's not) you eliminate a HUGE chunk of competition for you as a designer.

Think about it... designers lose thousands (millions?) per year to high school kids with a little creative juice who can code well enough to make a site look good in most browsers. If you make it so they have to use valid code a lot of smalltime designers or designers that build sites for a hobby won't be able to do it themselves anymore. Then who will they turn to? You got it... pro designers with experience and training in valid code.

This will also generate new business because people like me who can't code valid anything but PHP would literally be at the mercy of design snobs with their "new" price scale since valid code became a necessity.

Originally Posted by jjmac

I'm all for high school kids getting a design initiative and finding some work -- that's how I got started too. But as with any profession, there's a lot more that goes on behind the scenes than someone who's not involved will see on the surface.

Another (and bigger) problem in my opinion is not the high school kids who are doing design business, it's the people who caim they are a professional and still do not know the details about what they're doing. These people charge outrageous fees and the customers get little more than what they would get from a high school student...

Originally Posted by GeorgeB

I agree, but that's capitalism for you. If there is a market out there and the customer is willing to pay more for inferior products, people are going to take advantage of that.

Originally Posted by jjmac

...-- in my opinion this is what is driving people to ask the question "What am I getting for all this extra money", similar to the questions you've posed here.

Originally Posted by GeorgeB

So what's wrong with that? If the problem is that people are charging to much for inferior work and it's causing clients to ask why, then it appears to me the problem is fixing itself without web standards.

I'll be the first to admit I have my fields of expertise and web standards isn't one of them so there are probably a few underlying points I'm totally missing. But from my perspective, things are working fine now and (on the webmaster side) web standards will only help designers. Not the rest of us.

Originally Posted by Colleen

GeorgeB, you didn't mean to offend but calling those of us who care about standards and accessiblity, snobs, is offensive.

I don't care for the sake of design, I care for the disabled, I care to make their lives a little damn easier. Snob? I think not. We have to consider everyone, not just ourselves, should the day come you lose your eyesight or anything else that makes your life a little harder, I should hope someone cares enough to help.

It doesn't matter so much to me if my site looks good on some "snobs" PDA... it matters to me that a disabled person can at least get around to the best of their ability, I will do what I can to make their lives easier, at least then I can sleep better at night knowing I did my share.

"web standards will only help designers" you really need to read up what standards are all about, it's to be sure a website is functional cross-platform, cross-browser, for special devices such a screen readers. We're making sure a website is accessible for everyone.

That's such a bad thing?

I know as far as I am concerned, it doesn't help me at all, except that I did the right thing.

Originally Posted by GeorgeB

Word... You are right. I take that back.

If accessibility for disabled folks is your primary concern I can't find a single argument against that in my tiny brain.

But admit with me... "some" designers are snobs? I mean you should go over to sitepoint and just follow a few of the highly regarded members over there around. Their asses get kissed so much and there are so many people over there who think their designs are touched by the one above. I guess that's really where I get the snob impression from. My bad for stereotyping...

But I know there are some designers out there who are not only extremely talented but cool people as well. In fact you are just a nice person all around.

Originally Posted by JohnScott

*Group hug*

Originally Posted by Colleen

Yes, some are. As with any profession, you'll find snobs, I am sure one of the guys who cleans up elephant shit at the zoo could be a snob.

I just care to better the lives of people if/when I can.

Thanks, George.

Originally Posted by GeorgeB

If you make it so they have to use valid code a lot of smalltime designers or designers that build sites for a hobby won't be able to do it themselves anymore.

Originally Posted by LazyJim

I've had enough of this "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" arguments!
Firstly: with that attitude how is the web ever going to evolve?
Secondly: it is broke!

GeorgeB - your comments about elitism and shunning out the little new people ("high school web designers")... are simply uneducated! Sorry but this is how I feel. Please don't take this personally because I value your participation in these discussions and have for a long time been interested in rectifying the current situation of uneducated "web designers" and other web related people.




Why should such people be unable to compete in a web standards environment?
Once web standards are more evolved and supported by browsers, budding young web designers/developers will not have to learn all the quirks of individual browsers, and just learn the one "correct" way to code.

If anything web standards strive to level the playing field and make everyones' lives easier. At the same time a professional quality standard is available as a target for web designers and as a gauge from the customer's perspective - every industry has "best practises" and professional standards so why should "web design" be any different (really talking about paid jobs here).

Furthermore, self-built hobby sites made by non- "web designers" will eventually come to be better coded and easier to produce. Not just because of the reduced learning difficulty as mentioned above, but think how many "hobby sites" are built with Microsoft Frontpage (and other similar products)... Now imagine if Frontpage produced quality clean standards compliant code! - Web standards makes it far easier to make visual web page editors that work. It's all about interoperability / portability and efficiency of software and work-flows.

The proof is out there! Although as of right now, I think we have a long way to go till many of these "dreams" become reality, but we are already making great progress - just look at blogging and the tools available. Now the average web user can have a well coded standards based web site (blog) and apply a range of ready made styles / "skins". They can integrate their photo albums (for example) from other web sites and always have the option of "getting their hands dirty" if they are interested in taking it further or need more power/control over their web site - and all with the support of their peers (and those that have already gained new skills in the area) who all help each other and share information online.

That's just one example of success by web standards, now here's one of failure by lack thereof. Variable opacity PNG images. Work like a dream come true for web designers and would be ubiquitous now but for one thing holding them back: Microsoft Internet Explorer does not support the PNG standard. MSIE turns our sexy variable transparency special-FX (whether subtle or flamboyant) into ugly grey lumps! Not only that but IE has the technology, it is capable of displaying these variable opacity PNG's correctly but only when you use MSIE propriety code that is awkward and less powerful / flexible than the standard methods.

Hope for the future!
IE7 supports variable opacity PNG images right now, assuming the final release will keep proper support, then consider the PNG flood-gates open!

Just to finish off, imagine what standards could do for typography (font faces and their many technical bits) on the web. Ask any designer involved with print design industry how frustrating web design can be with a crippling lack of control over web site typography. There are two things stopping better control: standardisation both of the code and technology; and legal issues. Both will (hopefully) be resolved only by communication between organisations (stakeholders, software developers and industry regulators) and eventual agreement on standards.

I know this is stretching the thread topic of validators to the underlying principles of standardisation, but hopefully I have helped you and others to see that standards are good not evil!


P.S. Sorry for the long essay!

P.P.S. Don't try and validate my company web page!

Originally Posted by GeorgeB

OK I read through it and I have to tell you, you make some interesting and compelling arguments. Because as you say I'm "uneducated" on this matter I can't really pose a viable argument against any of your points.... save one.

(Note: I didn't take it personally, when you're right you're right. I'm no designer )

The "reducing learning difficulty" point. How can you proclaim that making a system more complex will make it easier to learn? I gotta tell ya... right now... it's pretty darn easy

You see I know standards. Not the type of standards we're discussing here but telecommunications networks protocols and standards. It's my job and the reason they pay me so much is because it's complicated as hell! Constantly new ones coming out damn near monthly. Because telecommunications standards are so complex it is far beyond the average hobbyist tinkerer to fully grasp and understand to be able to build a truly scalable and secure neighborhood network for example. Hence they have to pay telco providers to provide this service for them. Im going off on a tangent but hopefully you get my analogy.

This is what I feel will happen with web standards. We'll move to making them mandatory then once the net is at the mercy of the W3C they'll start releasing newer and more complex standards and protocols and the war will begin.

Now about elitists and shunning being uneducated. What's funny is that's the only part of my statement that wasn't! There IS a sense of elitism and so much better than thou attitude among PRO web designers. In fact as Coleen put it you'll find that in ANY profession, so claiming there isn't is simply absurd. Now you may be just in your position but I assure you for every designer out there with a truly good intentioned vision for the future of the web there are hundreds, nay, likely thousands who are just out there to make as much money as they can. If that means getting behind standards that will cut out the low level competition so be it.

In other words... maybe not you... but the point of my conspiracy theory post was that a lot of people pushing the standards wagon have motives other than the better good of the web.