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  #1  
Old 06-04-2010, 03:05 AM
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meek meek is offline
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HTML vs DW

I have been working a lot with notepad++ and my imaging with photoshop. Here lately I have had several people insist that I am wasting my time with learning code and that it is outdated. Instead they say that I should just be using Dreamweaver to create my websites because that's what everyone else does... or "no job is going to expect you to ever use any of that" -regarding html, css, etc.

They are kidding right? Every job that I have found requires the knowledge of CSS, PHP, Javascript and so on.

Why on earth am I getting hounded so much for this? and I have so argument to use against them.

Or has dreamweaver really taken over and I am just not in the know?

I haven't taken any classes since last year so I have been teaching myself. This is probably a really stupid question but I appreciate any input because I feel I am so lost.
 
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  #2  
Old 06-04-2010, 03:31 AM
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Dreamweaver is an adobe product
It's a WYSIWYG based template or web page designer
Lets say you're going to create a page from scratch
If you use notepad++ you need to start with the head and move so on
And tough part in it is css styling
If you use dreamweaver
It's template driven just select the basic layout you wish and customize as per your wish
Even you no need to come css
Just click and drag and enter css values you wish for every thing a.k.b attributes
That's it
Instead of coding manually just use it reduce job and time
I am using DW CS5
I use it for designing and modifying also note that you need the basic knowledge on the language even to work with
Have a try of demo with it!
 
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  #3  
Old 06-04-2010, 10:57 AM
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I do want to learn how to use it and I have been contemplating just downloading the demo. I just can't believe that it just "replaces" the need to know the important stuff. But as you said you need to know the basic on the language to even work with it.

Thanks for your help. I will give it a try.
 
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  #4  
Old 06-04-2010, 11:39 AM
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HTMLBasicTutor HTMLBasicTutor is offline
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Hi meek!
Quote:
Originally Posted by meek View Post
I have been working a lot with notepad++ and my imaging with photoshop.
Fabulous! You can code when ever you want on what ever machine you are on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by meek View Post
Here lately I have had several people insist that I am wasting my time with learning code and that it is outdated.
You are not wasting your time. As I just pointed out above, you can do your work on any machine you are sitting at.
Quote:
Originally Posted by meek View Post
Instead they say that I should just be using Dreamweaver to create my websites because that's what everyone else does...
And.. if everyone else jumped off a bridge, you should too?

Seriously though, they don't really know what they are talking about. Not everyone uses Dreamweaver. Just look at the thread: What software do you use to build your site?
Quote:
Originally Posted by meek View Post
or "no job is going to expect you to ever use any of that" -regarding html, css, etc.

They are kidding right? Every job that I have found requires the knowledge of CSS, PHP, Javascript and so on.
You are quite right meek. Jobs are listing that specific hand coding skills are required.

The industry goes through phases of what's cool to use. At one time it was GoLive (which was Adobe's competing WYSWYG product with Dreamweaver before they bought Dreamweaver).

Now, an office with multiple people working on sites might have a system in place for coordinating creating and/or updating sites which could be product/suite specific and in that case knowing how their chosen system works would be advantageous but if you are a quick learning, that shouldn't be a problem if you have all the other credentials they are looking for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by meek View Post
Why on earth am I getting hounded so much for this? and I have so argument to use against them.

Or has dreamweaver really taken over and I am just not in the know?
Your arguement against them is to challenge them to design a page without pushing any of those buttons in Dreamweaver or any other WYSWYG editor. You'll win hands down if you know your coding.

Or, can they go to a client's office and make minor tweaks without their chosen software on the machine at the client's office? Where as, if it's basic HTML site and you brought it on a USB drive you can just plug it into the available computer, make the tweaks and show them right in their own browser without uploading to the web server. <-- Done this and it was a few tweaks before it was "right" because the client was a visual person and had to see what their idea looked like. More time efficient than making notes, fixing the site at the office and having them reject the tweak but could you do this... and repeating the process.

The only reason Dreamweaver is popular is because it's an old program and people buy the Adobe Suites c/w other things they need like Photoshop, Adobe Acrobat, etc.

The same thing happened when Macromedia was around. Everyone used Dreamweaver, Fireworks, Flash and Freehand (all came in a suite like Adobe does).

Quote:
Originally Posted by meek View Post
I do want to learn how to use it and I have been contemplating just downloading the demo. I just can't believe that it just "replaces" the need to know the important stuff. But as you said you need to know the basic on the language to even work with it.
I think you have done this the right way around. Knowing how to code without the help of an editor is good because you know how things work and have the knowledge where to start looking when things don't work out the way planned.

Complementing your hand coding skills by learning Dreamweaver or what ever else the market uses in the area you are in is good.

Good luck with your job search.
 
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  #5  
Old 06-04-2010, 11:49 AM
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HTMLBasicTutor HTMLBasicTutor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Googler View Post
Dreamweaver is an adobe product
It's a WYSIWYG based template or web page designer
Lets say you're going to create a page from scratch
If you use notepad++ you need to start with the head and move so on
And tough part in it is css styling
If you use dreamweaver
It's template driven just select the basic layout you wish and customize as per your wish
Even you no need to come css
Just click and drag and enter css values you wish for every thing a.k.b attributes
That's it
Instead of coding manually just use it reduce job and time
I am using DW CS5
I use it for designing and modifying also note that you need the basic knowledge on the language even to work with
Have a try of demo with it!
And how do you think the templates were created in the first place? From scratch of course!

You can't "just" push a button or drag and drop to make changes to a page. You need to know what's happening so if it goes sour you know how to fix it.

Yes, using a WYSWYG editor can reduce production time but only if it produces coding you don't have to fix.

e.g. I see questions on Expression Web forums about people having problems with their layout in the browsers. They have created their layout with absolute positioned containers (which wasn't necessary to start with) and they don't get that the layout in the Design view of EW isn't necessarily what it's going to look like in each of the browsers. They have no idea how to fix it.

Ok, EW wouldn't be in the type of office meek was asking about but the point of the example is that people who use WYSWYG editors still need to learn (X)HTML and CSS to be able to fix their problems with the minimal amount of coding.
 
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  #6  
Old 06-04-2010, 02:16 PM
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optimus203 optimus203 is offline
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I find Dreamweaver useful for finding issues with the structure of my site. Notepad++ is good, but doesn't have verification tools that can tell you if you've used an element improperly, or whether certain browsers will render your code improperly. For me, these verification tools are the best part of Dreamweaver.

I know many people use Dreamweaver for the button-click approach to programming, but I always hand code in Dreamweavers source window. Adding all those out-of-the-box gadgets just adds way too much unnecessary code to your sites.

Dreamweaver will never replace the old way of doing things (hand coded in a text application). But like I mentioned before, you can do the same hand-coding in Dreamweaver, see your errors, and fix them more quickly. Its a very efficient tool.
 
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  #7  
Old 06-04-2010, 02:44 PM
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Using Notepad is awesome. Knowing the code is important. But using Dreamweaver does not mean that you don't need to know code. I use dreamweaver, but I haven't once used
WYSIWYG function. Dreamweaver is great with helping clean up the code and detecting errors as I make them, but it doesn't make coding much faster
 
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  #8  
Old 06-04-2010, 02:47 PM
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Agreed. TextWrangler is also another good alternative for anyone running on a Mac.
 
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  #9  
Old 06-04-2010, 02:49 PM
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Hi Meek!

Learning dreamweaver looks good on a resume, yes. The more things you put, the better!

But don't ever, ever believe anyone who tells you that it replaces ANYTHING! If you went to a job and said, "Hi, I know how to use XHTML 1.0, 1.1, HTML5, CSS2 and learning 3, Javascript, PHP, ASP, XML, XLST" etc., they will just hear a bunch of letters, and so when they hear dreamweaver they're happy.

At least, that's how I perceive it. HTMLBasicTutor is completely right though, supposing they ask you if you know dreamweaver, you can say, "sir/ma'am, I know HTML and CSS; I could make you a website from notepad if you asked me to!" that will impress them.

Another good thing is to have a portfolio. If someone ever questions your abilities, you can shut them up fast if you have examples of good work.

On a side note, older versions of dreamweaver will create pretty badly written code (or at least from my experience), not sure about newer versions.
 
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  #10  
Old 06-04-2010, 08:32 PM
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Yeah you need to know the coding
DW just reduces the job by picking up using options instead of typing!

@Meek: DW Just reduces the coding job does not replaces still!
You have manually type in some parts!
 
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  #11  
Old 06-05-2010, 01:08 AM
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You guys have all been EXTREMELY helpful with your advice. I am a lot more confident now. I was caught working on my portfolio in notepad++ and was harassed a bit for doing it "old school" But after they saw my work so far, they didn't believe it.

I agree that the more I can put under my belt the better so I am trying to learn everything I can.

I used GoLive back in high school, and when I tried to figure out the code it had concocted I almost pulled my hair out. I Decided that I liked my stuff organized from that day on.

And think I will give Dreamweaver a try because as much as I love detecting errors, I wont refuse the extra help.

Thank you all for your help and opinions!
 
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  #12  
Old 06-05-2010, 11:10 AM
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Honestly I haven't seen one good site (good code + good functionality + good compatibility) made with Dreamweaver. It is a very ambitious program that tries to cater for too many developer profiles: newbies, intermediates and pros without really doing a satisfying job for any of them.

Newbies can use it and get a site done with it but it will be a really crappy and unprofessional site. Intermediates and Pros can use the DW code editor but the program has hundreds of other options that they won't need and in the end it will be very annoying to code with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meek
And think I will give Dreamweaver a try because as much as I love detecting errors, I wont refuse the extra help.
If you're a coder used to Notepad++ I don't think you'll like Dreamweaver, but if you need tools to validate, debug, etc. I recommend you some better alternatives:

Eclipse: it was originally used for Java but now it works with any language and platform through its many plugins and branches, try out the web development releases: Eclipse Web Tools or Eclipse PHP Development Tools

Style Master: a code editor for CSS development. It is a paid program but its functionality does justify the price. It helps you easily write and test your CSS code, and it also detects possible compatibility problems. Link: http://www.westciv.com/style_master/

For debugging and finding problems with HTML/JS, you have some good plugins for Firefox such as Firebug or Web Developer.
 
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  #13  
Old 06-05-2010, 11:49 AM
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I'd have to disagree with You Hades.
I do know for a fact that dreamweaver helps a lot with compatibility and the CS4 and CS5 versions have pretty good and clean code. I don't know about functionality, since I don't do much aside from CSS and xhtml.
But I do have to agree that it's value is well overestimated. In it's original form (without plugins) it is very basic.
As for how good a site is depends more on the builder rather than the app he/she uses.
 
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  #14  
Old 06-05-2010, 12:57 PM
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For debugging your HTML and CSS coding I would recommend using the validators provided by the W3C. Why? Because programs and plugins take time to program/produce where as the W3C is the organization that develops the specs therefore their validators are up to date and based on first hand knowledge of the specifications.

HTML validator
CSS Validator

For script errors you can turn on the script debugger in IE. Using Javascript on Websites (there are instructions part way down this article on how to turn it on). Also in the bottom right of your browser a yellow warning sign will show up whether you have scritpt error turned on or not.

The Web Developer toolbar I have found:
-it shows a page as validated but when run through the W3C validator it fails
-the CSS error part you have to clear the error report and refresh the page to get the errors specific to the page
-the script error report you have to do the same as the CSS report.

The toolbar I prefer to use is the AIS Web Accessibility Toolbar. Don't be fooled by it's name, it has lots of features that are not specific to accessibility.
 
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  #15  
Old 06-05-2010, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HTMLBasicTutor View Post
The Web Developer toolbar I have found:
-it shows a page as validated but when run through the W3C validator it fails
I usually hit "Ctrl + Shift + A" with the Web Developer Plugin installed, which sends the current page to the W3C validator and shows you the official report. I use it merely as a shortcut to the real thing. Never used the internal validator option but I guess you're right on the fact that it's not as good as the official.

I did find some very useful features in that plugin:
-It allows me to disable several browser features to help testing pages (cache, images, css, js, cookies), I know you can disable them from the browser options too but with WebDeveloper they're just one click away. For instance I use a shortcut key to disable CSS and check if a page has good semantics.
-The ruler option is a great tool when coding CSS.
-Allows me to resize the browser window to several pre defined screen sizes and decide if some content is taking too much space.
-Form auto population helps testing forms.

Last edited by Hades; 06-05-2010 at 03:20 PM.
 
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  #16  
Old 06-06-2010, 07:45 PM
WebshoppeSolutions WebshoppeSolutions is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meek View Post
I have been working a lot with notepad++ and my imaging with photoshop. Here lately I have had several people insist that I am wasting my time with learning code and that it is outdated. Instead they say that I should just be using Dreamweaver to create my websites because that's what everyone else does... or "no job is going to expect you to ever use any of that" -regarding html, css, etc.

They are kidding right? Every job that I have found requires the knowledge of CSS, PHP, Javascript and so on.

Why on earth am I getting hounded so much for this? and I have so argument to use against them.

Or has dreamweaver really taken over and I am just not in the know?

I haven't taken any classes since last year so I have been teaching myself. This is probably a really stupid question but I appreciate any input because I feel I am so lost.
No .. Dreamweaver hasn't taken over anything. Dreamweaver can be a template based editor if you want it to be, but, surprise, surprise, Dreamweaver doesn't come with any (real) templates out of the box.

I've used Dreamweaver since before Adobe bought Macromedia, and as an html text editor, it rates right up there .. Dreamweaver can only be a WYSIWYG page builder if you want it to be.

Not too unlike Notepad, you can open a blank in Dreamweaver, switch to code view, and proceed to hammer out any kind of coding that you want to.

I'll suggest that you stay on your current course .. learn and grow, and continue to write by hand and from scratch. Your skills will be much more refined as a result, IMO.

Chances might be that in the end, you'll be the one working with and for the major developers, making all of the big bucks, while those others are still fiddling around with their predesigned and free web templates in Dreamweaver.

Happy Coding ..

Last edited by WebshoppeSolutions; 06-06-2010 at 07:48 PM.
 
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