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  #101  
Old 10-10-2008, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Barr View Post
Yes, those are the ones.

The photo of William Ayers shows him standing on an American flag in 2001. Wouldn't you agree that standing on one's country's flag constitutes a level of disrespect toward that flag?
Yes. I agree. Not very respectful of the flag.

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In Obama's photo, his failing to place his hand over his heart during the pledge of allegiance (contrary to common and expected practice in this country) constitutes, to me at least, a similar disrespect toward the flag. Do you disagree with that assessment?
I would disagree with that assessment. I have seen this photo a few times now but have not heard of any incidents where Obama has stepped on, burned or otherwise disrespected the flag (if you discount the act of not putting one's hand over heart as a sign of disrespect). Perhaps it has happened. I just have no knowledge of such an event.
I would offer this... In Canada, such an action (to not place hand over heart) means nothing. Some do it, some don't. The ones who don't are generally not looked upon as disrespecting anything by that action.
If that's the only "evidence" of disrespecting the flag, then I think it's weak. He's standing at attention. He's not stuffing donuts in his mouth or talking on his cell phone or watching TV. He looks respectful enough to me, even if he isn't following every single point of protocol that you deem necessary. He still appears (to me, at least) to be respectful of the flag. I also think it's quite a leap to jump from that to saying he doesn't respect his country. Some would argue that he has the right to disrespect the flag if he wants to. It's one of the things the USA stands for... the freedom to do things like disrespect the flag. So, given that, if he even was disrespecting the flag, wouldn't that mean he actually has respect for his country?
 
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  #102  
Old 10-10-2008, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Barr View Post
I do? That's news to me. I've never claimed to have "all the answers", nor do I think that I do.
I said: it looks like’ which is not the same as: I know you do. But I have to give you credit for being honest “nor do I think that I do” because (again I repeat) it looks like you don’t know basics.

Debating an issue using facts provide to you by your own “friendly” sources (in your case right wing radical Republicans) is like dressing clown in tuxedo and then expect him to be taken serious. Repeating “your truth” based on opinions of people who share the same views as you do doesn’t make your arguments factual just because another Bozo said so.

If you want to destroy your opponent arguments then use sources presented by the other side (that side would be left wing liberal Democrats) that would contradict your opponent point of view and obliterate the value of what he said.

Other than that, you are, and almost all of you in this forum hardly debating anything but simply repeating what somebody else said even if their truth has nothing to do with reality.
 
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  #103  
Old 10-10-2008, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Ferre View Post
I agree with you that voters should be informed about who they vote for. However, I do not agree with you when you spread rumours as facts, as you did when you started this tread.

Sure, Obama has some serious issues which make him not-the-ideal-president, I agree with anyone who points that out, but you are spreading rumours which are not based on anything but your will to slander him and spread (for all we know) false rumours, which doesn't make you any better. In fact by doing this you could loose your own credibility.
not the ideal president is an understatement. If you have friendly ties with terrorists and groups which believe that creating fake voters and take matters into their own hands trying to over-write a democratic process makes you wonder what else that man is capable of doing if he cannot get his way legally.
 
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  #104  
Old 10-10-2008, 01:32 PM
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not the ideal president is an understatement. If you have friendly ties with terrorists and groups which believe that creating fake voters and take matters into their own hands trying to over-write a democratic process makes you wonder what else that man is capable of doing if he cannot get his way legally.
Well, apparently some of that worked for the current president very well.
 
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  #105  
Old 10-10-2008, 01:39 PM
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From Audacity of Hope: 'I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.'
This is an example of just how much conviction he has in his own beliefs, or rather the ones he claims to have.
 
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  #106  
Old 10-10-2008, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferre View Post
Dude, first off, this tread started out with a lie/rumour. I asked for a source, which is one of the forum rules btw, and did not get one, then to distract from the actual subject, which was a false rumour to begin with, all sort of other accusations have been given in order to discredit Obama, fine by me, but I pointed out that even republicans do not all agree with the viewpoints presented about the Obama/Ayers connection and provided links to back this up.
It is a fact, not a lie, that associations with known terrorists present a major impediment to getting and holding a security clearance.

It is a fact, not a lie, that Bill Ayers is a self-admitted and unrepentant domestic terrorist.

It is a fact, not a lie, that Barack Obama has had a long-term, close relationship with Bill Ayers.

Combining these three facts leads to the reasonable conclusion that, if Obama were applying for a job at a military facility or other government operation rather than running for president, he would be unable to obtain the necessary security clearance to get hired.

You found one Republican (who happens to have worked with both Obama and Ayers) who defends and minimizes the Ayers/Obama relationship. Big whoop. The news media here can always count on finding one or two in either party to support the other side on any controversy. The mistake is in extrapolating from that as if there were some huge defense of Obama going on among Republicans. There's not. She's just one Republican (out of millions who would disagree with her) who fits the media's needs in defending Obama.

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Originally Posted by Ferre View Post
You keep spreading the LIE that I would be supportive to Obama, which I am not and have stated earlier, I'm supportive to backing up slander with sources, whether those facts are about you, Obama, McCain or anyone else for that matter.

Sure, you can keep on telling me that I'm a "Obama supporter" but that is just as ridiculous as telling me that I'm a McCain supporter. I just don't see why people should be slandered with rumours and I would ask for sources if you were the guy being slandered just as well, although, judging your posts, I wouldn't be supportive of you either when you were running for president.
I should have more clearly stated that it's my opinion, based on your posts, that you are an Obama supporter. Simply put, I just don't believe your claim of not being an Obama supporter. That lack of belief is based on your own words posted here and elsewhere on the forum.
 
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  #107  
Old 10-10-2008, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by sitetutor View Post
From Audacity of Hope: 'I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.'
This is an example of just how much conviction he has in his own beliefs, or rather the ones he claims to have.
Just in case some do not know, Obama wrote the book:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Audacity_of_Hope
 
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  #108  
Old 10-10-2008, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Barr View Post
She's just one Republican (out of millions who would disagree with her) who fits the media's needs in defending Obama.
One? I would say many but this is not the issue in here

Ferre followed the rules of debate and that is why Ferre won the argument and you lost the debate

Remember golden rule of any debate?
If you want to destroy your opponent arguments then use sources presented by the other side

BTW
It is a fact, not a lie, that Bush was drinking like a fish
 
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  #109  
Old 10-10-2008, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Mia View Post
Just in case some do not know, Obama wrote the book:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Audacity_of_Hope
From Dreams of My Father: 'I ceased to advertise my mother's race at the age of 12 or 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites.'
From Dreams o f My Father : 'I found a solace in nursing a pervasive sense of grievance and animosity against my mother's race.'
From Dreams of My Father: 'There was something about him that made me wary, a little too sure of himself, maybe. And white.'
From Dreams of My Father: 'It remained necessary to prove which side you were on, to show your loyalty to the black masses, to strike out and name names.'
From Dreams of My Father: 'I never emulate white men and brown men whose fates didn't speak to my own. It was into my father's image, the black man, son of Africa , that I'd packed all the attributes I sought in myself , the attributes of Martin and Malcolm, DuBois and Mandela.'
There is a lot more that he wrote and said as well.

And oh yeah, he wrote that book as well.

Last edited by sitetutor; 10-10-2008 at 02:22 PM.
 
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  #110  
Old 10-10-2008, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zap View Post
Yes. I agree. Not very respectful of the flag.

[Regarding the Obama photo]
I would disagree with that assessment. I have seen this photo a few times now but have not heard of any incidents where Obama has stepped on, burned or otherwise disrespected the flag (if you discount the act of not putting one's hand over heart as a sign of disrespect). Perhaps it has happened. I just have no knowledge of such an event.
While I certainly don't believe that Obama has stepped on, burned, or otherwise disrepected the flag, I do respectfully [pun fully intended] disagree with your view that not placing one's hand over the heart is not a disrespectful act. (more on this below)

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I would offer this... In Canada, such an action (to not place hand over heart) means nothing. Some do it, some don't. The ones who don't are generally not looked upon as disrespecting anything by that action.
If that's the only "evidence" of disrespecting the flag, then I think it's weak. He's standing at attention. He's not stuffing donuts in his mouth or talking on his cell phone or watching TV. He looks respectful enough to me, even if he isn't following every single point of protocol that you deem necessary. He still appears (to me, at least) to be respectful of the flag. I also think it's quite a leap to jump from that to saying he doesn't respect his country. Some would argue that he has the right to disrespect the flag if he wants to. It's one of the things the USA stands for... the freedom to do things like disrespect the flag. So, given that, if he even was disrespecting the flag, wouldn't that mean he actually has respect for his country?
The differences across borders is why I specified "in this country" in my post. Recalling that you are from Canada, I wanted to acknowledge that common practices might vary between our two countries.

In the US, it's commonly expected that a person will place his hand over his heart during the pledge of allegiance. Doing anything less would be viewed as very unusual for a private citizen, let alone for a high-profile political figure.

From Obama's long-term membership in Reverend Jeremiah (G-d D--n America, the US of KKK) Wright's church, to his wife's statement of being proud of America for the first time, and on to his relationship with Ayers, Obama's chosen associations have given me plenty of reasons to think that he holds this country in very low regard.

Protestors here have every right to disrepect the flag; that right has been upheld by court decisions. I expect that sort of thing, though, from protestors and not from presidential candidates.
 
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  #111  
Old 10-10-2008, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sitetutor View Post
From Dreams of My Father: 'I ceased to advertise my mother's race at the age of 12 or 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites.'
From Dreams o f My Father : 'I found a solace in nursing a pervasive sense of grievance and animosity against my mother's race.'
From Dreams of My Father: 'There was something about him that made me wary, a little too sure of himself, maybe. And white.'
From Dreams of My Father: 'It remained necessary to prove which side you were on, to show your loyalty to the black masses, to strike out and name names.'
From Dreams of My Father: 'I never emulate white men and brown men whose fates didn't speak to my own. It was into my father's image, the black man, son of Africa , that I'd packed all the attributes I sought in myself , the attributes of Martin and Malcolm, DuBois and Mandela.'
There is a lot more that he wrote and said as well.

And oh yeah, he wrote that book as well.
This is why I recommend anyone that supports Obama or does not support Obama reads both those books, then "Obamanation". It's quite revealing, and the contradictions brought to light are beyond all comprehension at times.

Then I suggest researching Saul Alinksy and reading "Rules for Radicals" last.

Regardless of what everyone seems to believe are falsehoods and attacks, the reality revealed in simply reading from the source, is eye opening and mind blowing.

Ask yourself this one question about a man that claims to have not known who Ayers was.

Wasn't Obama like President of the Harvard Law Review?
 
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  #112  
Old 10-10-2008, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by sitetutor View Post
From Audacity of Hope: 'I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.'
This is an example of just how much conviction he has in his own beliefs, or rather the ones he claims to have.
Mike,

That's a particularly bad quote to use. While the words themselves are literally accurate, they're taken horribly (and deceptively, IMHO) out of context. If you read the entire passage, or even just the paragraph, from which those words were taken, you'll get a completely different perspective on what he was saying.
 
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  #113  
Old 10-10-2008, 02:52 PM
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Ask yourself this one question about a man that claims to have not known who Ayers was.
You're not keeping up.

Last week, Obama's claim was that he didn't know who Ayers was.

This week, he's claiming that he had assumed that Ayers had been rehabilitated.

My question: If Obama didn't know about Ayers last week, just what was Ayers supposed to have been rehabilitated from?
 
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  #114  
Old 10-10-2008, 03:09 PM
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FULL Quote from Audacity of Hope:

“Of course, not all my conversations in immigrant communities follow this easy pattern. In the wake of 9/11, my meetings with Arab and Pakistani Americans, for example, have a more urgent quality, for the stories of detentions and FBI questioning and hard stares from neighbors have shaken their sense of security and belonging. They have been reminded that the history of immigration in this country has a dark underbelly; they need specific reassurances that their citizenship really means something, that America has learned the right lessons from the Japanese internments during World War II, and that I will stand with them should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.”
 
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  #115  
Old 10-10-2008, 03:12 PM
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The differences across borders is why I specified "in this country" in my post.
That was obvious to me before you stated it.
By your moral compass, then, logically, Canadians are disrespectful of their flag.
I would also take issue with that.

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Ask yourself this one question about a man that claims to have not known who Ayers was.
There you go. Now that's something real to hold against a man, rather than what he does with his hands.
 
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  #116  
Old 10-10-2008, 03:29 PM
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New video: http://www.johnmccain.com/videolanding/acorn1.htm
 
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  #117  
Old 10-10-2008, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Zap View Post
That was obvious to me before you stated it.
By your moral compass, then, logically, Canadians are disrespectful of their flag.
No, not at all. Behaving differently in regard to your flag from what we do here is nothing more than a difference in our respective customs. I don't consider either country's particular customs and traditions to be any more 'correct' than the other's; they're just different. Mine are more familiar to me, of course, just as I'm sure that yours are to you.

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I would also take issue with that.
You certainly should. Since I didn't say (nor mean to imply) that there was anything wrong with how you do things north of the border, I don't really think that there's anything to take issue with.
 
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  #118  
Old 10-10-2008, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by sitetutor View Post
FULL Quote from Audacity of Hope:

“Of course, not all my conversations in immigrant communities follow this easy pattern. In the wake of 9/11, my meetings with Arab and Pakistani Americans, for example, have a more urgent quality, for the stories of detentions and FBI questioning and hard stares from neighbors have shaken their sense of security and belonging. They have been reminded that the history of immigration in this country has a dark underbelly; they need specific reassurances that their citizenship really means something, that America has learned the right lessons from the Japanese internments during World War II, and that I will stand with them should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.”
That's what I meant by the context of the quote -- He's specifically relating the phrase "in an ugly direction" to the internment of Japanese-American citizens carried out during WWII. He's sayng that he would stand with Muslims against such a course of government action. Without that context, the words come across as being very sinister.
 
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  #119  
Old 10-10-2008, 04:18 PM
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No, not at all. Behaving differently in regard to your flag from what we do here is nothing more than a difference in our respective customs. I don't consider either country's particular customs and traditions to be any more 'correct' than the other's; they're just different. Mine are more familiar to me, of course, just as I'm sure that yours are to you.
Why would you not apply that same logic to Obama, then?

Could it be that the absence of his hand over his heart is nothing more than a difference in customs?
Obama, having grown up in a different family than you (I'm making an assumption here), would naturally have different customs than you and, as far as he's concerned, he's showing respect for the flag. His traditions wouldn't be any more 'correct' than yours, just different. Perhaps his upbringing allows him to respectfully stand at attention without speaking on a cell phone or watching TV and still respect the flag without hand over heart.

Or, is your contention that every single American must show respect for the flag in exactly the same way with hand over heart or risk being labelled as "disrespectful"?
 
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  #120  
Old 10-10-2008, 05:07 PM
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Why would you not apply that same logic to Obama, then?
Because Obama is not a Canadian citizen running for office in Canada.

If he were, that logic would apply. Since he's an American running for office here, our customs apply, not yours.

Quote:
Could it be that the absence of his hand over his heart is nothing more than a difference in customs?
Obama, having grown up in a different family than you (I'm making an assumption here), would naturally have different customs than you and, as far as he's concerned, he's showing respect for the flag. His traditions wouldn't be any more 'correct' than yours, just different. Perhaps his upbringing allows him to respectfully stand at attention without speaking on a cell phone or watching TV and still respect the flag without hand over heart.
We're not talking about differences between one family's traditions and customs compared to those of another family. We're talking about an entire country's long-standing customs and traditions.

Is it a Canadian custom to stand when your national anthem is being played? (I'd assume that it is but I don't know that for a fact.) Does everyone stand? How do people view someone who doesn't? Is that person considered disrespectful, or is he just using his own set of customs?

Quote:
Or, is your contention that every single American must show respect for the flag in exactly the same way with hand over heart or risk being labelled as "disrespectful"?
My contention is that almost every American, with remarkably few exceptions, does show respect for the flag by placing their right hand over their heart during the pledge of allegiance. The picture that I posted depicts Obama as one of those remarkably few exceptions.
 
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