Obama

[thegamerslink]

I'm sorry,

I'm not racist, but I can not support a repayment to blacks for slavery that happened over a hundred years ago. I have never had slaves, my father and grandfathers never had slaves, and the ones asking for the restitution have never known slavery. If someone was actually a slave, and it was allowed by the government then that person should get restitution, no one else.

My lineage is English and Irish, the English enslaved and tortured the Irish many centuries ago, I do not expect restitution from U.K. nor do I expect or demand restitution from Spain, or from Rome for the slavery and persecution against my English side. I just find that to be ridiculous, and I find it a reason this country is prevented moving beyond racism, because people won't let it go and move on and work on making everyone truly equal and allow them to truly be judged on their actions and achievements not looked over because of the color of their skin or their lineage. Continue to live in the past and never grow beyond yesterday.

[krahmaan]

Originally Posted by South

As confident as you seem about your figures, I'm sure it's safe to figure that you've arrived at a method of determining precisely which African Americans have slave descendants as opposed to those who arrived here afterward or lived here as freemen.

And of those with slave descendants, surely you've established how many years / generations of servitude each served. Some endured generations while others endured a much shorter time. Fairness would require this information.

And of those who do have slave family history, once you established years served you calculated the difference allotting for any compensation between 1865 and now in the way of post war programs and modern government compensation programs.

And, since you seem so devoted to the idea of fairness, you certainly did your research to subtract payment amounts for the number of years any African American's ancestor held slaves themselves, right?

And finally, you forgot to add in the figures of non-Africans who endured forced servitude in America, so that's going to change your figures some as well.

When you get all of that worked out come back here with your new figures. Otherwise you "estimates" are pretty useless.

Finally, a very intelligent post on this! 2kudos.

South, it was very important that you brought this up! I did account for the amount of people there were enslaved, and not the free men. I also accounted for the amount of time spent in slavery. But there was also interest that could not be accounted for. Yes interest! As you know the value of the all mighty dollar could buy far more back in those times. Now a day you can't a loaf a bread, milk and butter with only a dollar. So that was also not accounted for to be 'fair'.

According to wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanes...can_internment, the 'heirs' of those reimbursed were handed down the funds so they did indeed profit just as many do from wealthy families. Accounting for all that would have been a far greater amount (#). So that's why I first stated 40+ million per household. But I went back for a different and more conventional approach.

Since the Japanese only spent 2 years without freedom and were awarded 1.6 billion total. I divided that number by the amount of people who were seized. The amount came out to around 10.5 million per Japanese American household. That's a lot of money especially in those times.

So what I did was to the simplify the equation. Since it probably would be 'fair' to just award each household of the enslaved African American descendants 10.5 million also, I noticed that since the cost of living has risen that even wouldn't be the proper amount. So I thought to even further simplify the equation (of course that's what we do in math -simplify).

So, what I did was to simply look up how much '2 acres' is roughly worth now. I found out that it's worth roughly 1.2 million. "40 acres and a mule" was the promise so I multiplied 1.2 million by 20 not 40 (going by '2 acres' mind you), giving me 24 million per household. Then I subtracted 4 million for federal taxes. Thus, giving you my calculation.
+1

[South]

Originally Posted by krahmaan

I did account for the amount of people there were enslaved, and not the free men.

You can't account for the amount of people, you have to account for the specific people and the amount of time per specific person. If you've done that, not only are you one of the centuries most remarkable minds, but you need to contact the US census department, because they've claimed it can't be done. Poor records, lost records, no records and such.

[krahmaan]

Originally Posted by South

You can't account for the amount of people, you have to account for the specific people and the amount of time per specific person. If you've done that, not only are you one of the centuries most remarkable minds, but you need to contact the US census department, because they've claimed it can't be done. Poor records, lost records, no records and such.

Well as you know it took 44 years for Japanese Americans to receive reparations. It's been over 140 years and African Americans still never received any. So with time things decompose and deteriorate. Files, records and the such also get misplaced or even destroyed. But what we have from history still is evident. So from this a compromise could be made.

I'm not saying that my calculations are perfect, for no one even in history could claim to be so perfect. So my attempt was kept simple just for others to consider or go by. I would even say 1 million or 500,000 -just enough to buy one (good) home to invest with could be considered something. But even this has never been done.

Hopefully Mr. South, you can see my point in my calculations. Most African Americans have a lineage from enslaved ancestors. Lots of them if they were handed down funds like many of the rich today wouldn't recklessly blow them. But would still be passing down those wages and investing helping the economy. With those inherited funds that were indeed earned over many years in the passed without payment or later compensation. So the word 'fair' doesn't enter the area.

This wouldn't be about "sharing the wealth". But about stolen wages that were profited by 100,000 times over. Just think about it -I'm sure you'd understand. The Japanese never lost wages, and only spent 2 years without freedom to be awarded so much. There goes the word 'fair' out the window again.

[South]

Originally Posted by krahmaan

Hopefully Mr. South, you can see my point in my calculations. Most African Americans have a lineage from enslaved ancestors. Lots of them if they were handed down funds like many of the rich today wouldn't recklessly blow them. But would still be passing down those wages and investing helping the economy. With those inherited funds that were indeed earned over many years in the passed without payment or later compensation. So the word 'fair' doesn't enter the area.

I'm not saying anyone is reckless. I'm only saying that there's no way to do it without just drawing assumptions out of thin air. You say most African Americans. Are you counting Tahitian Americans? Many of them have slave ancestors, many don't. Are they included or not? What about first generation African Americans? Second? Included just like someone with slave ancestors or not? Who pays? Every white person? Every white and Mexican? Whites, Mexicans and blacks? What about white, mexicans and blacks who just got here...you gonna charge them for something they had nobody around for?

If it's fairness we're after, are we going to take care of the Indians first? How could anything less than simply returning the country to them repay for what they lost? They were damaged first, and can be much more easily identified as having ancestors who suffered directly.

Whether you want to think it or not, every American has the exact same opportunities as every other American.

[dWhite]

Originally Posted by South

Whether you want to think it or not, every American has the exact same opportunities as every other American.

Not so true if you look at it from a different standpoint.

[susanqy]

When the president who are the same, even though he is black, but I think that he is not the color of his heart

[South]

Originally Posted by dWhite

Not so true if you look at it from a different standpoint.

A negative "victim" standpoint, you mean?

[Zap]

As nice as the gesture would be, it would be impossible to make reparations to African Americans for slavery.
With the Japanese, a guy could go to the government and say "You owe me money because I was in a camp.". He was directly involved.
We don't hold people responsible for the crimes of their relatives, especially dead ones. Nobody alive today owned slaves or was owned. Period.
As long as people keep trying to beat this dead horse, you'll never move forward.
If there are still injustices today, as a result of slavery, then take care of that injustice today and leave history out of it.
History can not be changed.

[kristeejo]

You are correct, Zap. It should've been done long ago - but it wasn't and now it's over. What we can do - is PROGRESS and afford all Americans the same opportunities .... and I think last night proved we are finally ready to do just that.

[Zap]

Originally Posted by kristeejo

You are correct, Zap. It should've been done long ago - but it wasn't and now it's over. What we can do - is PROGRESS and afford all Americans the same opportunities .... and I think last night proved we are finally ready to do just that.

I hope so. I hope this new President will aim for a less turbulent term in office.
It would seem as though the majority of you are ready to move forward, indeed.
But, if not, when an injustice in the here and now is discovered, correct it and move on. Blame the singular white supremecist idiot who lives in the stone ages and not the entire white race when racism is discovered. When a black man rapes a white girl, blame the evil idiot who committed the crime and not the entire black race.
Working together is going to be the only way to get racism behind you.

[StrongInTheArm]

Damn, that reminds me, I owe South an apology. I once suggested that the US will not elect a Black President, do I feel stupid

Sorry South! I was wrong, enjoy

[dWhite]

Originally Posted by South

A negative "victim" standpoint, you mean?

Well since this was referring to the Caucasian and African-American views, it isn't equal opportunity if I am turned down a job because a black person applied for the same job even though I have more experience and knowledge in a respective field.

[krahmaan]

Originally Posted by South

I'm not saying anyone is reckless. I'm only saying that there's no way to do it without just drawing assumptions out of thin air. You say most African Americans. Are you counting Tahitian Americans? Many of them have slave ancestors, many don't. Are they included or not? What about first generation African Americans? Second? Included just like someone with slave ancestors or not? Who pays? Every white person? Every white and Mexican? Whites, Mexicans and blacks? What about white, mexicans and blacks who just got here...you gonna charge them for something they had nobody around for?

If it's fairness we're after, are we going to take care of the Indians first? How could anything less than simply returning the country to them repay for what they lost? They were damaged first, and can be much more easily identified as having ancestors who suffered directly.

Whether you want to think it or not, every American has the exact same opportunities as every other American.

But not everyone's struggles are the same. History has proven this South. Cops don't racially profile whites, so I guess you just wouldn't understand this. Or do you propose that you do understand...

Anyone else care stab at this one?

[Atom]

I've always been anti-reparations. It just has never made sense to me either, for reasons South and others have pointed out.

[South]

Originally Posted by krahmaan

But not everyone's struggles are the same. History has proven this South. Cops don't racially profile whites, so I guess you just wouldn't understand this. Or do you propose that you do understand...

Anyone else care stab at this one?

I didn't imply that everyone has the same experiences. Some are born rich, some poor. Some are born brilliant, some have to struggle mentally to keep up in school and life. Some may be pulled over for being black in a white neighborhood after dark, I may get stabbed for being white in a black neighborhood after dark (that one's actually been tried). Some have stable, loving family environments to grow up in and some grow up in broken and abusive homes.

That doesn't change the truth of what I said. Everyone has their own obstacles, advantages, and personal goals.

[krahmaan]

Originally Posted by South

I didn't imply that everyone has the same experiences. Some are born rich, some poor. Some are born brilliant, some have to struggle mentally to keep up in school and life. Some may be pulled over for being black in a white neighborhood after dark, I may get stabbed for being white in a black neighborhood after dark (that one's actually been tried). Some have stable, loving family environments to grow up in and some grow up in broken and abusive homes.

That doesn't change the truth of what I said. Everyone has their own obstacles, advantages, and personal goals.

But that's not what you stated before now is it South? You stated:

Originally Posted by South

Whether you want to think it or not, every American has the exact same opportunities as every other American.

Now it seems like you're stating what I stated for your own argument. When that's my argument.

Originally Posted by krahmaan

But not everyone's struggles are the same. History has proven this South. Cops don't racially profile whites, so I guess you just wouldn't understand this. Or do you propose that you do understand...

So does that mean that you really do agree with me? Or do you concede your original argument? Don't use a one time event to justify what happens to African Americans almost every day. The struggle is very different. I see your weak attempt to understand is very flawed. Blacks will beat up anybody in their ghettos no matter what color. So again, your point is very flawed. Tell me Mr. South, how many times have you looked down the barrel of a loaded weapon?

[FocalPoint]

Originally Posted by Atom

I've always been anti-reparations. It just has never made sense to me either, for reasons South and others have pointed out.

I don't think at this time anyone is seriously considering actual monetary reparations..correct me if I'm wrong...

I believe this election has elevated the status of America to where even the Presidency is open to all (who can raise the money!) Obama is the Jackie Robinson of politics....

[Atom]

Originally Posted by FocalPoint

I don't think at this time anyone is seriously considering actual monetary reparations..correct me if I'm wrong... (...)

I think you're right. I haven't heard anything about it being seriously considered either.

[dWhite]

Reparations for slavery against black people long ago has pretty much no logic to it, since even around the world today black people are still enslaving their own peoples in various countries.

Don't know why people can't just look at it as human enslaving humans, rather than always white people enslaving black people.