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  #21  
Old 02-20-2009, 07:16 AM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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I agree with you John that you can find jobs. Of course you can find tons of jobs that pay peanuts. You know like me that young people living in house's dad and mom can accept any low salary and foreign families living with 10+ people can also accept any rates.

There is 10% of Americans living with food stamps and I don't think all are working cash jobs. I know some people in bad situation, they cannot find jobs and are not eligible for food stamps.

I am talking about middle class people educated with degrees, having a decent job before, homeowners, and small business people losing everything in this economic mess.
 
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  #22  
Old 02-20-2009, 07:48 AM
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I'm sorry, but this still comes back to the individual. This is the result or personal irresponsibility. If you're living a lifestyle that's eating up such a large portion of your income that you can't stand to take a lower wage for a while, then you were speculating that you'd never hit a bump and life would be rosy forever.

So you've got a guy earning 40K a year. He buys a house and a car that eats up 65% of his gross income. That was a choice. He didn't plan on worst case scenario.

Had he purchased a house and car that put him at 20% of his gross income, he'd have savings enough to weather the storm for awhile and would be able to get by on a lower wage til things got better.

So if you're living a lifestyle above what minimum wage will support if needed, and you don't outright own everything you have, then you're speculating just as surely as a stock trader. You're betting that your situation stays stable or goes up. If you make the wrong bet, you may lose.

Government welfare was designed to help people in dire straits through no fault of their own, not to keep people in the lifestyle they're accustomed to when they live on the financial edge and hard times hit.


So now we're going to spend billions paying mortgages for people who are going to default as soon as the relief is eaten up. Since they got it once they'll be screaming that they're now entitled to it. A free market economy just can't stand this. Obama has in one swoop undone all the good that was accomplished by welfare reform.
 
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  #23  
Old 02-20-2009, 08:46 AM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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I will tell you that's easy to say South.

"This is the result or personal irresponsibility". Well irresponsability is everywhere.

For example: A few employers here in Nevada are hiring graphic designer at $10 per hour and that is disrespecful to young people paying thousands dollars for their education. Can you live with $10, pay a rent, pay for food, etc...

I don't think you can say lifestyle when a family make 40K, of course it depends where you live with this money.

Here is my personal opinion if I follow your thinking, I can say: "why helping the homeowners" after all it is a choice. What about people that need help and cannot afford to rent? I mean we can go on and on like this.

Why should I pay taxes to help bankers/wall street because they screw up with their greed?

Why should I pay taxes to help automakers that put a price tag higher than anybody else made with cheap parts from different countries and pay coporation jets ?

Why should I pay taxes to help others and not me?

A free market unregulated sooner or later will fall down, that's why we are in deep recession. I don't mean socialism regulations, I mean something acceptable to avoid crazyness.

Last edited by Franc Tireur; 02-20-2009 at 08:50 AM.
 
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  #24  
Old 02-20-2009, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post
I agree with you John that you can find jobs. Of course you can find tons of jobs that pay peanuts. You know like me that young people living in house's dad and mom can accept any low salary and foreign families living with 10+ people can also accept any rates.

There is 10% of Americans living with food stamps and I don't think all are working cash jobs. I know some people in bad situation, they cannot find jobs and are not eligible for food stamps.

I am talking about middle class people educated with degrees, having a decent job before, homeowners, and small business people losing everything in this economic mess.
Let's see. First off, the proposition that there are some who cannot find jobs. That is probably true. Some people that are on life support at hospitals, I doubt they would find steady work. But able bodied people - yes, 100% of them can find work if they were willing to.

And no, not all jobs pay peanuts. I hired people off the street for $10 an hour, and that was a decade ago when that was good money. Of course, people have to be willing to pay their dues. You can't just live in a vegetative state and expect people to give you their hard earned money. Take a job, exercise your free will to create a plan whereby you have something more valuable to trade. Brain surgeons will always make a ton of money because they have something valuable to trade. Gas station attendants, no so much. It's your life. It's your responsibility to equip yourself with skills. If you don't like capitalism, you can always retire to the woods and live a life of hunter-gatherer.

And, the people who are losing everything need to take responsibility for their loses. I've lost over $300,000 in the last year, and it was my choices that made me vulnerable to those loses. Why should other, hard working people be forced by the government to subsidize my risk taking?

And, it was concern for the poor that got us in this situation. When the Liberals put pressure on banks to make subprime loans, they signed the death warrant on the economy.
 
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  #25  
Old 02-20-2009, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post

A free market unregulated sooner or later will fall down, that's why we are in deep recession. I don't mean socialism regulations, I mean something acceptable to avoid crazyness.
I have yet to see a free market fail. The US wasn't a free market. It was pounded into the ground by the government regulation demanding that the banks lend to subprime applicants who would not repay the money. Now we all get to pay for it.
 
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  #26  
Old 02-20-2009, 09:27 AM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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"And, the people who are losing everything need to take responsibility for their loses."

I do not agree with you on that John. If you are losing everything because you are laid off, and cannot find a job that pays enough to keep your home just because some other people played a game that you never played yourself is unacceptable.

Supporting consequences of other's actions and taking responsibility for that makes no sense to me.

Last edited by Franc Tireur; 02-20-2009 at 09:32 AM.
 
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  #27  
Old 02-20-2009, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post

I do not agree with you on that John. If you are losing everything because you are lay off, and cannot find a job that pay enough to keep you home just because some other people played a game that you never played yourself is unacceptable.
People do not lose their homes due to the choices of others. If people lose their jobs, whose fault is that? They were aware of that risk and agreed to it when they signed the employment contract.

If they don't want to lose their homes, then don't put your home at risk. If they don't want to lose their jobs, then sign a contract to that effect.

And, yes, a lot of people are suffering because Democrats forced their bankrupt-a-nation welfare policies on the nation. And Republicans have spent their share of the nation's wealth as well. But in the long run, it will be a good thing. The faster this nation goes broke, the faster it will learn that you can't go giving away trillions of dollars and expect to be able to feed yourself too.
 
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  #28  
Old 02-20-2009, 11:02 AM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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"People do not lose their homes due to the choices of others."

Again John I do not agree with you on that. The market was inflated superficially with mass risk borrowers because some genius wanted to make more money from people that couldn't afford payments. It was the first step, when the house market started to collapse then the next step is a chain reaction affecting regular mortgage, then the core of the economy. Yes people are losing their houses due to choices of others destroying jobs, careers and else. BTW Nevada is a right to work state, basically their can kick you off when they want and leave you a miserable life. They don't have to have a reason to fire you. Long ago a casino fired a woman because she did not wear lip stick. Contracts? not for us.

This mess has no end, wait for all arm's mortgages that will reset soon, the second wave of mortgage defaults will continue to destroy the economy, put pressure on bankers, etc... Bankers will ask the gov more money...

A stupid vicious circle.

Last edited by Franc Tireur; 02-20-2009 at 11:10 AM.
 
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  #29  
Old 02-20-2009, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post
"People do not lose their homes due to the choices of others."

Again John I do not agree with you on that. The market was inflated superficially with mass risk borrowers because some genius wanted to make more money from people that couldn't afford payments.
Some genius who wanted to make money? No. Banks do not enjoy lending money to people with No Jobs, No Credit, No Assets ("NINJA"). Banks do it because the Carter and Clinton administrations forced them to. Mainly, it was Clinton with his rewrite of the Community Reinvestment Act. Banks had to make ninja loans.

Although I am not a fan of Bush, you got to give him credit. He warned about the dangers of it. Did they listen? No. Will they listen now? No. If banks were allowed to stop making NINJA loans, the Democrats would get an earful from people like you - "oh, the poor, employed crack dealers!? Don't they deserve to own their own homes??"

So, yeah, your government is going to continue to force banks to make NINJA loans, the government is probably going to underwrite them 100%, and it's going to further decimate the US economy and devalue the dollar.

Furthermore, nobody made anybody sign an ARM loan. If you signed an ARM loan, either you did so understanding the risk involved, and you are at accountable for accepting that risk; or you did so not understanding the risk involved, and it's your fault for not understanding the risk involved before signing a contract. Either way, it's on you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post
BTW Nevada is a right to work state, basically their can kick you off when they want and leave you a miserable life. They don't have to have a reason to fire you. Long ago a casino fired a woman because she did not wear lip stick. Contracts? not for us.
LOL! Being a little deceptive there, aren't you? Right to work simply means that employers cannot require you to be a member of a union.

I lived in Nevada, and yes, I had an employment contract. If you don't have one, it's your choice. Of course, you don't have to work for anybody if you don't want to. Just remind yourself that you aren't a victim of anybody but yourself, and go into business for yourself.
 
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  #30  
Old 02-20-2009, 01:49 PM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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LOL John I think we can argue for a long time each other but I like you

"Some genius who wanted to make money? No. Banks do not enjoy lending money to people with No Jobs"

Well I never saw a bank lending money to unemployed people in US or anywhere else lol

A safe mortgage is a maximum of 3 times the buyer's yearly income, tell me why bankers are lending more than that? It is like giving a pack of candy to a kid and ask him to take only one. Lenders who are lending money without checking revenus are responsible, then lack of regulations is responsible. Also lenders making calculations based on revenues and arm rates on first years, meaning that later the percentage of interest rate will be much higher than the inial calculation and none affordable for the borrower is a kind of crime/fraud.

Yes genius from third party professional companies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...housing_bubble

"Housing bubbles may occur in local or global real estate markets. In their late stages, they are typically characterized by rapid increases in the valuations of real property until unsustainable levels are reached relative to incomes, price-to-rent ratios, and other economic indicators of affordability. This may be followed by decreases in home prices that result in many owners finding themselves in a position of negative equity—a mortgage debt higher than the value of the property."

Another article on the bubble: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/20/op...20krugman.html

I am talking in general, if you want to know I never signed for arm mortgage and never will. All I can say is that our hard earned money was invested in our house like many Americans, then the house value is falling down. Is this our fault? I don't think so.

Why arm mortgages are still available right now when we all know that this mecanism is detroying the market. Who is responsible for this?

As I said in Nevada, employement laws are inexistent compared to California or other states. Why do you think companies move in Nevada? Ask yourself why.

As far as the employment contract I guess you can have one if you are working in construction but that's about it. I worked many times in print shop as worker and salesman and employers never offered me or to my co-workers a contract. So do I have a choice to get a contract? I will say not in our field in Nevada. There is no union in graphics or in print shop here.

Nevada was hit hard and yes all homeowners are victims
 
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  #31  
Old 02-20-2009, 03:05 PM
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John Scott John Scott is offline
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First, don't quote Krugman to me. He's a socialist propagandist. You'd do well not to quote him to anybody.
Quote:
Well I never saw a bank lending money to unemployed people in US or anywhere else lol
Then you shouldn't be talking about the current worldwide financial melt down, should you?

This crisis was caused by just this kind of loan.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...301733_pf.html

The people on the Right warned about it for decades. They told you that if you kept making loans that were never going to be repaid, we'd lose capital to the magnitude that would cause a financial meltdown.

Now it has happened, and the Liberals want to pretend that they didn't force it to happen.

Quote:
Why arm mortgages are still available right now when we all know that this mecanism is detroying the market. Who is responsible for this?
Liberals are saying that banks need to make loans to the poor and oppressed, no matter how bad their credit is. The loans will continue to be made. You will continue to foot the bill. Get it? Half of everything you earn will go to the government sooner or later. Don't complain, comrade, you owe it to the poor and oppressed.
Quote:
As I said in Nevada, employement laws are inexistent compared to California or other states. Why do you think companies move in Nevada? Ask yourself why.

As far as the employment contract I guess you can have one if you are working in construction but that's about it. I worked many times in print shop as worker and salesman and employers never offered me or to my co-workers a contract. So do I have a choice to get a contract? I will say not in our field in Nevada. There is no union in graphics or in print shop here.
Then why don't you open your own shop, and stop complaining about how somebody else runs their shop? You have no right whatsoever to force somebody to contract with you.
 
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  #32  
Old 02-20-2009, 03:39 PM
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Dustin07 Dustin07 is offline
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I "qualified" for a loan that would have been 100% of my income, about 75% of my combined household income with my wife.

I opted for a loan that was about 17% of my income and paid off my cars instead. My friends went out and bought new cars with big loans instead of paying off their existing cars, then lost them back to the bank when their unions went on strike and they had to chose between house payments and car payments..


but that's probably the governments fault.
 
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  #33  
Old 02-20-2009, 03:50 PM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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Where did you see that I am complaining about how somebody else runs their shop?

I own and run my small business. Yeah small businesses will not generate any employment, according to many economists, too bad and let them fail right?.

In life there are workers and capitalists right? Capitalists cannot make money without workers and vis versa so what is your point? Let people dying because capitalists cannot make money anymore, is what you are trying to say?

You are right on everything dear John you are the best, people unemployed are useless, and if they are scammed by the system too bad for them. At the end capitalists will find a way to get back their assets.

I am very dissapointed by your comments, you won dear friend. I see no point to continue participating here, sorry.

Chapeau bas.
 
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  #34  
Old 02-23-2009, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post
Where did you see that I am complaining about how somebody else runs their shop?

I own and run my small business. Yeah small businesses will not generate any employment, according to many economists, too bad and let them fail right?.

In life there are workers and capitalists right? Capitalists cannot make money without workers and vis versa so what is your point? Let people dying because capitalists cannot make money anymore, is what you are trying to say?

.
That's actually not true. A nation built of small businesses is a more secured and diversified nation, like a portfolio built of many smaller investments rather than putting all your pennies into Enron.
 
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  #35  
Old 02-24-2009, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post
Yeah small businesses will not generate any employment
Huh? You've got to pay attention beyond the reports Obamaites feed you to get you behind their plans.

Real statistics from the SBA Office of Advocacy.

Quote:
Small firms:
• Represent 99.7 percent of all employer firms.
• Employ about half of all private sector employees.
• Pay nearly 45 percent of total U.S. private payroll.
• Have generated 60 to 80 percent of net new jobs annually
over the last decade.
• Create more than half of nonfarm private gross domestic
product (GDP).
• Hire 40 percent of high tech workers (such as scientists,
engineers, and computer workers).
 
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  #36  
Old 02-24-2009, 11:29 AM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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Hey guys I was being sarcastic

Last edited by Franc Tireur; 02-24-2009 at 11:37 AM.
 
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  #37  
Old 02-26-2009, 03:46 AM
junction4seo junction4seo is offline
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The Obama administration is very nice,right now all the countries are facing the financial problem mostly countries are depending to US. I think he will justified that financial problem.this is my opinion
 
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  #38  
Old 03-02-2009, 03:21 PM
riternity riternity is offline
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hi

let us wait and see
 
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  #39  
Old 03-05-2009, 10:16 AM
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I hated bush.. hated clinton... and i didnt care for obama either... they are all representing the same side and were just going to have to rebuild once it collapses...

Thats o-k by me... maybe america wont vote for those jokers anymore.
 
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  #40  
Old 03-22-2009, 11:04 PM
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we must not defend on prediction or in the person who rule it we must make our country improve the economy its on to us we must help our country to move forward.
 
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