His legacy has come full circle....

[FocalPoint]

However you wish to measure George Bush as a world leader...he just comes up short. As recently as last year people were touting the economy as one (perhaps the only) area in which he has had some success....now even that has vanished.

(Don't say "what about the Iraq war?" unless you want an earful...)



http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...efer=worldwide

U.S. Stocks Slide to Five-Year Lows as Banks, Carmakers Tumble

By Eric Martin

Nov. 19 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. stocks sank and benchmark indexes slid to their lowest levels since 2003 on growing concern over the health of the financial system and survival of the nation's car industry.

Citigroup Inc. tumbled 23 percent to $6.40, a 13-year low, on a plan to buy $17.4 billion of troubled investment-fund assets. General Motors Corp. slid 9.7 percent to its lowest price since the 1940s, while Ford Motor Co. lost 25 percent. Fourteen companies in the Standard & Poor's 500 Index fell 20 percent or more as government data signaled the recession is deepening and expectations grew that insurers will post more investment losses.

``Hideous day,'' said Bill Stone, who oversees $56 billion as chief investment strategist at PNC Wealth Management in Philadelphia. ``It's hard to put a basement on this thing.''

The S&P 500 plunged 6.1 percent to 806.58 and extended its 2008 retreat to 45 percent, poised for its worst year since 1931. The Dow Jones Industrial Average lost 427.47 points, or 5.1 percent, to 7,997.28. The Nasdaq Composite Index decreased 6.5 percent to 1,386.42. Thirty stocks fell for each that rose on the New York Stock Exchange, where 1.6 billion shares changed hands, 8.6 percent more than the three-month average.

[krahmaan]

It's crazy, with all the talk about our financial situation lamborghini sales are still expected to do good. So how can all these people still afford such a car in this "financial crisis"? Yeah, I believe there's a crisis going on, but it's not affecting as many people as the media says.

http://www.eurocarblog.com/post/1303...-anno-positivo

[thegamerslink]

What about the Iraq War?

[homebizseo]

Originally Posted by FocalPoint

However you wish to measure George Bush as a world leader...he just comes up short. As recently as last year people were touting the economy as one (perhaps the only) area in which he has had some success....now even that has vanished.

(Don't say "what about the Iraq war?" unless you want an earful...)



http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...efer=worldwide

U.S. Stocks Slide to Five-Year Lows as Banks, Carmakers Tumble

By Eric Martin

Nov. 19 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. stocks sank and benchmark indexes slid to their lowest levels since 2003 on growing concern over the health of the financial system and survival of the nation's car industry.

Citigroup Inc. tumbled 23 percent to $6.40, a 13-year low, on a plan to buy $17.4 billion of troubled investment-fund assets. General Motors Corp. slid 9.7 percent to its lowest price since the 1940s, while Ford Motor Co. lost 25 percent. Fourteen companies in the Standard & Poor's 500 Index fell 20 percent or more as government data signaled the recession is deepening and expectations grew that insurers will post more investment losses.

``Hideous day,'' said Bill Stone, who oversees $56 billion as chief investment strategist at PNC Wealth Management in Philadelphia. ``It's hard to put a basement on this thing.''

The S&P 500 plunged 6.1 percent to 806.58 and extended its 2008 retreat to 45 percent, poised for its worst year since 1931. The Dow Jones Industrial Average lost 427.47 points, or 5.1 percent, to 7,997.28. The Nasdaq Composite Index decreased 6.5 percent to 1,386.42. Thirty stocks fell for each that rose on the New York Stock Exchange, where 1.6 billion shares changed hands, 8.6 percent more than the three-month average.

gas is $1.68 and interest rates are low and he defeated Saddam Hussein

[thegamerslink]

It really amazes me that some people are so quick to soak up every bit of propaganda they can when it comes to things such as the economy, or the Iraq War, or I should say, the War on Terror.

Answer to me these few things

When did the economy start taking it's hardest turn? When did the economy stop rebounding be it quickly or slowly from the negatives it faced?

Why did we go to Iraq?

When did we start losing in Iraq?

Who are/were we fighting in Iraq?

Who killed the Columbian Free Trade agreement how and why?

Why did the price of oil rise so much?

Was there a way to bring the prices down? Did we do it? Who did it, how and why? If we didn't who stopped it?

[Zap]

Originally Posted by homebizseo

gas is $1.68 and interest rates are low and he defeated Saddam Hussein

Are you referring to the same Saddam Hussein that the CIA helped put into power?
That Saddam Hussein?
Or a different Saddam Hussein?

[thegamerslink]

Zap, dude, get a real brain would you? I hire someone to start repairing computers, I even raise their pay because they do a good job, I teach them a lot of the things I know. Three years later I catch that same person skimming the till, or stealing information off of customers hard drives or a plethora of other things. Now I'm faced with a dilemma, I like this person, I hired them, spent time with them, trained them, and when needed defended and vouched for them. Do I ignore what they have done, ignore the fact that apparently they have changed or done wrong, or do I get rid of the person because they are dangerous to my business, they are a thief, they are dishonest?

It's not that hard of a choice really. Just because you put someone in a position does not make that person free to do whatever they want to do without fear of retribution. And it's not hypocritical to fix it after it reaches a level and you lose complete influence or control. If the situation becomes not only dangerous for those that are directly under them but for everyone else that is on the planet. So get off the subject, and until you get a security clearance and have access to all of the intel, just not the part that is conveniently leaked by one side or the other, it is probably better not to place such a fixed opinion on something don't you think?

[oo87]

I don't think Bush was qualified to have been in power for as long as he was. Several of the problems we are now facing would not have happened, because it was on the authority of Bush and his Administration that certain misinformation was released and actions were taken.

However, however much I dislike the man, whatever negativity I feel towards his abilities as a President, and whatever I do think is his fault, I don't feel it all necessarily is. For instance, the economy is not a Bush issue, and I don't think that the war has anything to do with it. The deficit, yes, the stock market, no.

We were headed this way a long time ago, and no one took steps to prevent it, and for whatever warnings certain politicians gave (Biden, Clinton, McCain, ect.), they never made a major push to fix things while there was still time. The housing market is a good example. More steps should have been taken during and after the Clinton administration to assure that multitude of houses that were built during that time would be filled, and on mortgages people could keep.

In any case, I don't think there is any reason to defend Bush. His greed has been apparent for years, and his reasons for entering Iraq were not about getting rid of Saddam Hussein for the sake of anyone else, US or Iraqi. After all, look at Cheney's continued involvement with foreign oil, and Bush's families relationship with prominent families in the same line. Not to mention his past positions working for oil companies.

I think we can all see the motivation, and pretending it was a good move for the sake of Democracy is turning into something noble when it clearly wasn't. He doesn't deserve the credit of "meaning well".

[Zap]

Originally Posted by thegamerslink

Zap, dude, get a real brain would you? I hire someone to start repairing computers, I even raise their pay because they do a good job, I teach them a lot of the things I know. Three years later I catch that same person skimming the till, or stealing information off of customers hard drives or a plethora of other things. Now I'm faced with a dilemma, I like this person, I hired them, spent time with them, trained them, and when needed defended and vouched for them. Do I ignore what they have done, ignore the fact that apparently they have changed or done wrong, or do I get rid of the person because they are dangerous to my business, they are a thief, they are dishonest?

It's not that hard of a choice really. Just because you put someone in a position does not make that person free to do whatever they want to do without fear of retribution. And it's not hypocritical to fix it after it reaches a level and you lose complete influence or control. If the situation becomes not only dangerous for those that are directly under them but for everyone else that is on the planet. So get off the subject, and until you get a security clearance and have access to all of the intel, just not the part that is conveniently leaked by one side or the other, it is probably better not to place such a fixed opinion on something don't you think?

Your analogy is way off. Iraq isn't some mom and pop store that sells computers, we're not talking about a thief and it's not in the United States, either.
Homebiz was touting the capture and murder of Saddam Hussein as some sort of triumph. The US created that monster and homebiz thinks some credit is due for putting an end to it. While the rest of us realize that he might not have been in the position to be a monster if it weren't for US meddling in the affairs of other countries to begin with. So, you'll have to excuse me if I don't jump for joy that GWB corrected one mistake by making another mistake, and a colossal one at that.

He also seems to forget the recent history of gas prices for some reason.
I guess he's not old enough to drive yet.

[FocalPoint]

Originally Posted by thegamerslink

Zap, dude, get a real brain would you? I hire someone to start repairing computers, I even raise their pay because they do a good job, I teach them a lot of the things I know. Three years later I catch that same person skimming the till, or stealing information off of customers hard drives or a plethora of other things. Now I'm faced with a dilemma, I like this person, I hired them, spent time with them, trained them, and when needed defended and vouched for them. Do I ignore what they have done, ignore the fact that apparently they have changed or done wrong, or do I get rid of the person because they are dangerous to my business, they are a thief, they are dishonest?

It's not that hard of a choice really. Just because you put someone in a position does not make that person free to do whatever they want to do without fear of retribution. And it's not hypocritical to fix it after it reaches a level and you lose complete influence or control. If the situation becomes not only dangerous for those that are directly under them but for everyone else that is on the planet. So get off the subject, and until you get a security clearance and have access to all of the intel, just not the part that is conveniently leaked by one side or the other, it is probably better not to place such a fixed opinion on something don't you think?

Tell me slink, are you this abusive at home?...or is this your way of being 'funny'? Just wondering....

I wonder, with your Mr tough guy attitude how you don't puke at the mention of Bush's name...

He was the king of overlooking the failures of his cronie appointments and even praising them when they did wrong. btw... far from firing any who leaked the identity of a CIA agent...he actually commuted the sentence of the one who was convicted...

Your analogy of the computer repair guy to Saddam is pretty silly. Of course the obvious difference is that Saddam was not guilty of possession of WMD.. nor did he have the ability to attack us or his neighbors...

Most people who make mistakes and find out later that they were wrong admit it and move on... it's really that simple...

[Zap]

Originally Posted by FocalPoint

Most people who make mistakes and find out later that they were wrong admit it and move on... it's really that simple...

Some just attack the other person with a stupid comment about their brain.
Some don't.

It takes all kinds to make a world.

[FocalPoint]

Originally Posted by oo87

I don't think Bush was qualified to have been in power for as long as he was. Several of the problems we are now facing would not have happened, because it was on the authority of Bush and his Administration that certain misinformation was released and actions were taken.

However, however much I dislike the man, whatever negativity I feel towards his abilities as a President, and whatever I do think is his fault, I don't feel it all necessarily is. For instance, the economy is not a Bush issue, and I don't think that the war has anything to do with it. The deficit, yes, the stock market, no.

We were headed this way a long time ago, and no one took steps to prevent it, and for whatever warnings certain politicians gave (Biden, Clinton, McCain, ect.), they never made a major push to fix things while there was still time. The housing market is a good example. More steps should have been taken during and after the Clinton administration to assure that multitude of houses that were built during that time would be filled, and on mortgages people could keep.

In any case, I don't think there is any reason to defend Bush. His greed has been apparent for years, and his reasons for entering Iraq were not about getting rid of Saddam Hussein for the sake of anyone else, US or Iraqi. After all, look at Cheney's continued involvement with foreign oil, and Bush's families relationship with prominent families in the same line. Not to mention his past positions working for oil companies.

I think we can all see the motivation, and pretending it was a good move for the sake of Democracy is turning into something noble when it clearly wasn't. He doesn't deserve the credit of "meaning well".

And you're from Utah? You make some very good points...

[Harveyj]

Originally Posted by thegamerslink

Why did we go to Iraq?

Good Question. Considering that Iraq was pretty much the only country in the region with no verified links to Al-Qaeda, why did the US go to Iraq?

Originally Posted by thegamerslink

When did we start losing in Iraq?

"Officially"? Never. The mission was accomplished.
With the people on the ground? Probably about the same time last year that the civilian body count surpasses what it had in nearly the three previous decades.

Originally Posted by thegamerslink

Who are/were we fighting in Iraq?

Supposedly Al-Qaeda... which had no presence in Iraq until after the war started, and Mujahideen moved in "to protect Islam"... which is ironic as Iraq was also the most secular country in the region with Islam being about as widely practiced as Christianity is in America.

Originally Posted by thegamerslink

Why did the price of oil rise so much?

Mostly instability in the Middle East and depletion of strategic reserves... which were caused by a war in one of the Middle East's most oil rich countries, funnily enough.
Scorched earth burn offs of the oil feel depleted Iraq's oil reserves substantially.
It also made other Middle Eastern nations, already wary of the US, substantially more hostile due to perceived antagonisms. Such hostility is reflected asymmetrically. They know the US will kick their arse militarily, so they fight back in a way that hurts the average US citizen more than blood... Increased CPI.

[Rankenstein]

Originally Posted by FocalPoint

Tell me slink, are you this abusive at home?...or is this your way of being 'funny'?...

This is the Politics forum, it's the way we roll in here. Imagine it's the Australian parliament. Only in this forum though, in the others you must respect your fellow posters and not call them a bunch of stunned mullets.

[homebizseo]

Originally Posted by Zap

Your analogy is way off. Iraq isn't some mom and pop store that sells computers, we're not talking about a thief and it's not in the United States, either.
Homebiz was touting the capture and murder of Saddam Hussein as some sort of triumph. The US created that monster and homebiz thinks some credit is due for putting an end to it. While the rest of us realize that he might not have been in the position to be a monster if it weren't for US meddling in the affairs of other countries to begin with. So, you'll have to excuse me if I don't jump for joy that GWB corrected one mistake by making another mistake, and a colossal one at that.

He also seems to forget the recent history of gas prices for some reason.
I guess he's not old enough to drive yet.

Zap are you OKAY? You really should see a doctor.

I'm not a fan of bush. We did a great job in the middle east and the world is a safer place due to Bush's orders since 9/11.

Throw eggs at the man and insults to me, it's all fine and dandy. I am actually glad to see him living soon. I guess the liberal left will have to find another scapegoat to blame everything on.

[Zap]

Originally Posted by homebizseo

Zap are you OKAY? You really should see a doctor.

When a valid point eludes you and words fail you, make a silly remark about the opponents health. It won't help your case, but maybe you can try to draw attention away from the fact that your point is indefensible.
Executed perfectly, homebiz.

Originally Posted by homebizseo

I'm not a fan of bush.

OK. I definitely have to call bull**** on that one. You're one of his biggest fans.
Anyone who agrees with the Iraq war is definitely a Bush fan. You would have to be. There simply is no other reason to think invading Iraq was a good idea.

Originally Posted by homebizseo

We did a great job in the middle east and the world is a safer place due to Bush's orders since 9/11.

Past tense??? Really? Is that anything like "Mission Accomplished"?
Dude, if you think the world is a safer place since the invasion of Iraq, then you have your head (appropriately enough) in the sand.
You've increased the number of enemy combatants that are hostile to the US by leaps and bounds and ensured that you'll have a continuous supply of fresh new enemies for years to come. Al Qeida is secretly praising the US invasion of Iraq because they have so many more disenfranchised youth to recruit now, not just in Iraq but throughout the Middle East. You are rapidly gaining enemies by the minute.
Yeah. The world is a safer place.

Originally Posted by homebizseo

Throw eggs at the man and insults to me, it's all fine and dandy. I am actually glad to see him living soon. I guess the liberal left will have to find another scapegoat to blame everything on.

Bush is not a scapegoat when he is blamed for the Iraq invasion. He is guilty as charged.
He made the decision to go in there, so he kinda has to accept responsibility for that decision.
That's how it works. No scapegoating required.
GWB is guilty of invading Iraq. It's pretty simple, really.

[David_ Bowie]

hmmm, I have to agree with Zap on this one. we have a history of putting people into power and then when they don`t act like the puppets we want, then we demolish them.

We step on the toes of our fellows and they retaliate. Sometimes they hurt us, seemingly without provocation, but we invariably find that sometime in the past we have made decisions based on self which later placed us in a position to be hurt.

[dWhite]

Originally Posted by homebizseo

Zap are you OKAY? You really should see a doctor.

I'm not a fan of bush. We did a great job in the middle east and the world is a safer place due to Bush's orders since 9/11.

Throw eggs at the man and insults to me, it's all fine and dandy. I am actually glad to see him living soon. I guess the liberal left will have to find another scapegoat to blame everything on.

I hardly classify our presence in the Middle East a success, if anything it has severed relations with middle eastern countries such as Saudi Arabia, Iran and Israel.

[oo87]

Originally Posted by FocalPoint

And you're from Utah? You make some very good points...

That's just the way we roll in Utah.