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  #1  
Old 11-25-2008, 03:51 AM
backgammonnn123 backgammonnn123 is offline
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True Republicans: who are they and what do they stand for:)

Can any neoconservative explain this to me lol?
 
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  #2  
Old 11-26-2008, 05:12 AM
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There is a lot of information about it here.
 
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  #3  
Old 11-26-2008, 09:43 PM
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There is a lot of information about it here.
That is a great link. It was an amusing response.

What is a true anything?
 
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Old 11-26-2008, 09:55 PM
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I would guess most people who call themselves Republican today have little idea of what conservativism actually means.

To be a conservative traditionally meant to limit the size of government, to balance the budget (live within our means) and to avoid any unnecessary involvements (including war) with other nations. It also meant holding traditional values and restraining social change...

Neo-conservative, or 'new-conservativism',seems to have little resemblance to those ideals...at least as practiced during the past dozen or so years.

According to the "Bush Doctrine" pre-emptive war is permissable...meaning attacking a country before it has a chance to attack us, once we have proof of the enemies capability and intent. The real "bush Doctrine" in practice is to attack a country if we think it might attack us...

Neo-conservativism also doesn't care how unbalanced the budget becomes, how much we borrow, how much we spend or the future of our economy.

This is why the Republican Party is on life-support today. They 'had it all' just four years ago and actually planned to have a 'permanent Republican Majority' as Karl Rove said.

Now Rove is lucky to have a job with Fox News....
 
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Old 11-27-2008, 06:38 AM
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A person can be a republican and not be conservative.
 
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  #6  
Old 11-27-2008, 07:20 AM
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Not only can be, but usually are....
 
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Old 11-27-2008, 07:46 AM
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Not only can be, but usually are....
McCain was moderate to left.
 
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Old 11-28-2008, 09:33 PM
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A person can be a republican and not be conservative.
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Not only can be, but usually are....
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Originally Posted by homebizseo View Post
McCain was moderate to left.
That's what I said....they can be, but usually are (not conservative)...maybe my meaning wasn't clear....
 
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Old 11-28-2008, 09:55 PM
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A true Republican believes in the values of free enterprise and family. He doesn't compromise certain values. He holds them in high regards and doesn't settle for less.
The Republican agenda is one that honors human nature and recognizes the need to intervene only as needed.
Republicans believe in their right to be the government alongside with the government.
Republicans also do not judge individuals' shortcomings, but refuse to give legal blessings to wrongdoings such as aborting unborn babies just because it doesn't schedule conveniently into the mother's personal timeline of when exactly she prefers to give birth.
 
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Old 11-29-2008, 02:42 AM
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A true Republican believes in the values of free enterprise and family. He doesn't compromise certain values. He holds them in high regards and doesn't settle for less.
The Republican agenda is one that honors human nature and recognizes the need to intervene only as needed.
Republicans believe in their right to be the government alongside with the government.
Republicans also do not judge individuals' shortcomings, but refuse to give legal blessings to wrongdoings such as aborting unborn babies just because it doesn't schedule conveniently into the mother's personal timeline of when exactly she prefers to give birth.
That's just your own personalized definiton Mike. There are lots of people who are both republican and pro abortion, just as there are people who are both democrat and anti abortions.


Also, there is a difference between neocons and republicans. Neocons hold Israeli interests above American interests while republicans hold American interests above anything else.


Here is a fairly accurate explanation of what (and who) neoconservatives actually are...


http://www.antiwar.com/orig/lind1.html

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The core group now in charge consists of neoconservative defense intellectuals. (They are called "neoconservatives" because many of them started off as anti-Stalinist leftists or liberals before moving to the far right.) Inside the government, the chief defense intellectuals include Paul Wolfowitz, the deputy secretary of defense. He is the defense mastermind of the Bush administration; Donald Rumsfeld is an elderly figurehead who holds the position of defense secretary only because Wolfowitz himself is too controversial. Others include Douglas Feith, No. 3 at the Pentagon; Lewis "Scooter" Libby, a Wolfowitz protégé who is Cheney's chief of staff; John R. Bolton, a right-winger assigned to the State Department to keep Colin Powell in check; and Elliott Abrams, recently appointed to head Middle East policy at the National Security Council. On the outside are James Woolsey, the former CIA director, who has tried repeatedly to link both 9/11 and the anthrax letters in the U.S. to Saddam Hussein, and Richard Perle, who has just resigned his unpaid chairmanship of a defense department advisory body after a lobbying scandal. Most of these "experts" never served in the military. But their headquarters is now the civilian defense secretary's office, where these Republican political appointees are despised and distrusted by the largely Republican career soldiers.
Most neoconservative defense intellectuals have their roots on the left, not the right. They are products of the influential Jewish-American sector of the Trotskyist movement of the 1930s and 1940s, which morphed into anti-communist liberalism between the 1950s and 1970s and finally into a kind of militaristic and imperial right with no precedents in American culture or political history. Their admiration for the Israeli Likud party's tactics, including preventive warfare such as Israel's 1981 raid on Iraq's Osirak nuclear reactor, is mixed with odd bursts of ideological enthusiasm for "democracy." They call their revolutionary ideology "Wilsonianism" (after President Woodrow Wilson), but it is really Trotsky's theory of the permanent revolution mingled with the far-right Likud strain of Zionism. Genuine American Wilsonians believe in self-determination for people such as the Palestinians.
The neocon defense intellectuals, as well as being in or around the actual Pentagon, are at the center of a metaphorical "pentagon" of the Israel lobby and the religious right, plus conservative think tanks, foundations and media empires. Think tanks such as the American Enterprise Institute (AEI) provide homes for neocon "in-and-outers" when they are out of government (Perle is a fellow at AEI). The money comes not so much from corporations as from decades-old conservative foundations, such as the Bradley and Olin foundations, which spend down the estates of long-dead tycoons. Neoconservative foreign policy does not reflect business interests in any direct way. The neocons are ideologues, not opportunists.
The major link between the conservative think tanks and the Israel lobby is the Washington-based and Likud-supporting Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (Jinsa), which co-opts many non-Jewish defense experts by sending them on trips to Israel. It flew out the retired general Jay Garner, now slated by Bush to be proconsul of occupied Iraq. In October 2000, he cosigned a Jinsa letter that began: "We ... believe that during the current upheavals in Israel, the Israel Defense Forces have exercised remarkable restraint in the face of lethal violence orchestrated by the leadership of [the] Palestinian Authority."
The Israel lobby itself is divided into Jewish and Christian wings. Wolfowitz and Feith have close ties to the Jewish-American Israel lobby. Wolfowitz, who has relatives in Israel, has served as the Bush administration's liaison to the American Israel Public Affairs Committee. Feith was given an award by the Zionist Organization of America, citing him as a "pro-Israel activist." While out of power in the Clinton years, Feith collaborated with Perle to coauthor a policy paper for Likud that advised the Israeli government to end the Oslo peace process, reoccupy the territories, and crush Yasser Arafat's government.
Such experts are not typical of Jewish-Americans, who mostly voted for Gore in 2000. The most fervent supporters of Likud in the Republican electorate are Southern Protestant fundamentalists. The religious right believes that God gave all of Palestine to the Jews, and fundamentalist congregations spend millions to subsidize Jewish settlements in the occupied territories.
The final corner of the neoconservative pentagon is occupied by several right-wing media empires, with roots – odd as it seems – in the British Commonwealth and South Korea. Rupert Murdoch disseminates propaganda through his Fox television network. His magazine, the Weekly Standard – edited by William Kristol, the former chief of staff of Dan Quayle (vice president, 1989-1993) – acts as a mouthpiece for defense intellectuals such as Perle, Wolfowitz, Feith and Woolsey as well as for Sharon's government. The National Interest (of which I was executive editor, 1991-1994) is now funded by Conrad Black, who owns the Jerusalem Post and the Hollinger empire in Britain and Canada.
 
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  #11  
Old 11-29-2008, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Ferre View Post
That's just your own personalized definiton Mike. There are lots of people who are both republican and pro abortion, just as there are people who are both democrat and anti abortions.


Also, there is a difference between neocons and republicans. Neocons hold Israeli interests above American interests while republicans hold American interests above anything else.


Here is a fairly accurate explanation of what (and who) neoconservatives actually are...


http://www.antiwar.com/orig/lind1.html
Very true, but part of the reason is also that many people join both parties for reasons other than convictions. Same with people joining religions. Some people join a party because of family tradition, others because they see a personal benefit in joining. So really, a lot of republicans are democrats at heart and vice versa. As for Israel, I do believe Israeli and American interests should go hand in hand and America is blessed for its support of Israel. You may say politics and religion should be seperate, but I do believe it is impossible to seperate both, even though it looks good on paper.
 
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  #12  
Old 11-29-2008, 01:03 PM
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You believe that Israeli and American interests go hand in hand? That's only partly true, the only part that's true in your statement is that this interests are Israel's interests. Not American interests at all. Americans pay for those "interests" and that's all there is to it. Everyting Israel has been doing the past 40 years has not been in American interests at all, it has caused the hatred of the Arab world towards the west (America and its allies), numerous wars and terrorist attacks and all for what? Israel does not have any oil or other resources, its major exports is spying technology, technology to spy on you and me by our governments, and it has a huge begging hand that pulls in $84,854,827,200 US taxpayers money/year and for that money the US taxpayers get even more wars to finance.

Nice deal.
 
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  #13  
Old 11-29-2008, 03:08 PM
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Dude, once Obama's sweettalk express hits the Middle East, everything will be great!
I am not going back into this with you, bro. I think you are giving one side a pass and blaming the other side for defending itself, but hey ... you're not the only one who believes your way and I am not the only one who believes my way.
So let me just state from a Christian point of view where many of us stand:
1) It is our duty to support Israel. It doesn't mean a blank check, but it means support the children of Israel.
2) It is not our job to do their job and not our job to judge what they do. It's God's job. We support, they act and God will judge us all accordingly.
3) Jews in the end days will get a chance to accept Jesus. Many will, many won't.
4) Americans overall WANT TO support Israel and consider Israel a friend in need, or a little brother so to speak. What good is money if your little brother gets beat up or worse?
5) This is all meant to happen as it happens. Atheist-driven solutions didn't work.
You may not believe as I do, but you need to realize that my belief has a strong presence, so saying "This is insane, Americans shouldn't think that way" is really pointless because like it or not, this is where America stands, has stood and will stand (God willing).
6) Most of Europe supports the other side. So we need America to stand up for the Jews in order to create a balance there. Look at what Iran is doing. And don't blame it on Israel, please, because the Quaran in itself calls its followers to act against Jews. That my friend is a FACT! Blaming Israel is like blaming the U.S. for many Europeans being anti American, when in fact you and I both know that in countries like France and Germany there has been hatred against America no matter who was in office.

On another note: I have read a few articles in Dutch newspapers when I was there, and a growing number of people in Holland do understand America's point of view more than any other nation in Europe.
I am saying this to make sure that readers realize that what you are saying is not what the average person in Holland believes.
 
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  #14  
Old 12-14-2008, 09:17 PM
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McCain was moderate to left.
Both McCain and Obama have to look over to the right just to see Chavez.
 
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  #15  
Old 12-15-2008, 05:27 AM
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Dude, once Obama's sweettalk express hits the Middle East, everything will be great!
Dude, you must be totally ignorant of the voting history of Obama and the staff he picked for his administration, everything indicates that Obama is no different than Bush in regard of the middle east, he populates his administration with zionist supporters for a war with Iran and people who brought America its current financial crisis. Do you really expect me to take you serious when you show this much ignorance of the subject you choose to critisize? As I have pointed out before, zionists like you should be praising Obama, he appointed nothing but representatives for you guys.


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Originally Posted by sitetutor View Post
I am not going back into this with you, bro. I think you are giving one side a pass and blaming the other side for defending itself, but hey ... you're not the only one who believes your way and I am not the only one who believes my way.
Not going back into this? In my part of the woods people who say they won't get back into something don't follow that up with going back into this, as with your list below. It shows how much you value your own words though.


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So let me just state from a Christian point of view where many of us stand:
Do you really think we didn't know already where many of you guys stand? Do you really believe that all the killings you guys do to support this stance goes unnoticed and people don't look into the motives?

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Originally Posted by sitetutor View Post
1) It is our duty to support Israel. It doesn't mean a blank check, but it means support the children of Israel.
Your "duty"? Because an outdated book says so?


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Originally Posted by sitetutor View Post
2) It is not our job to do their job and not our job to judge what they do. It's God's job. We support, they act and God will judge us all accordingly.
There you are wrong, MY tax money is being used to support those politics and the wars you guys start, as long as I pay for that crap I have the right to judge it.

Your "god" is a fable and used too many times as a scapegoat, wake up, this is the real world, your god isn't part of the international court and it will be the international court that will judge those actions at the end of the day.


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3) Jews in the end days will get a chance to accept Jesus. Many will, many won't.

More fables, please keep this conversation REAL, you know, as in "reality". truth is that the large majority of this world does not live in your fantasy world Mike, although the longing for those "end days" amongst a certain group of religious folks makes them do anything they can to speed up that process, they too are a minority and considered to be a bunch of dangerous wackaloons by most people in this world.


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Originally Posted by sitetutor View Post
4) Americans overall WANT TO support Israel and consider Israel a friend in need, or a little brother so to speak. What good is money if your little brother gets beat up or worse?
What makes Israel America's "little brother"? Their spying? The USS LIberty?

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Originally Posted by sitetutor View Post
5) This is all meant to happen as it happens. Atheist-driven solutions didn't work.
What a load of nonsense again. What Atheist-driven solutions are you talking about that didn't work?


Quote:
Originally Posted by sitetutor View Post
You may not believe as I do, but you need to realize that my belief has a strong presence, so saying "This is insane, Americans shouldn't think that way" is really pointless because like it or not, this is where America stands, has stood and will stand (God willing).
No, this is where you personally stand. Don't think that "Americans" agree with you, they don't, some do, others don't.

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6) Most of Europe supports the other side. So we need America to stand up for the Jews in order to create a balance there.
Load of nonsense again, if you were not as ignorant as you are you would know that Most European countries support Israel, although in most European countries the Palestinian voice is not censored as in America, the actual political support in Europe is overwhelmingly pro Israel.

If not censoring Palestinians is regarded as support for the "other side" by you, you should go back to school and learn about democratic processes and free speech in society because you clearly missed a couple of lessons somewhere.


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Originally Posted by sitetutor View Post
Look at what Iran is doing. And don't blame it on Israel, please, because the Quaran in itself calls its followers to act against Jews. That my friend is a FACT! Blaming Israel is like blaming the U.S. for many Europeans being anti American, when in fact you and I both know that in countries like France and Germany there has been hatred against America no matter who was in office.
Yeah, what is Iran doing? I'll tell you what it is doing, it is dealing with a threat from Israel and America, as they've been doing ever since those countries started to meddle in their country. The "hatred", as you call it, against America in Europe indeed is regardless who is in office but this has a reason and it's not "hatred", it's because regardless who is in office American foreign policies do not change, and American foreign policies stink, when people critisize those policies they are not "anti American", they criticize politics and rightfully so.

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Originally Posted by sitetutor View Post
On another note: I have read a few articles in Dutch newspapers when I was there, and a growing number of people in Holland do understand America's point of view more than any other nation in Europe.
I am saying this to make sure that readers realize that what you are saying is not what the average person in Holland believes.
That growing number of people you refer to is Geert Wilders and his supporters, this dude is considered to be an extreme right politician by the Anne Frank foundation in Amsterdam btw. Coinsidently, he was showing his film FITNA in Jerusalem this week, on invitation of Arieh Eldad, member of the Israely party "National Union" which advocates the etnic cleansing of all Arabs out of Israel.
 
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  #16  
Old 12-15-2008, 06:15 AM
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Btw, here's what those policies you defend so fiercefully actually are about in plain statistics...

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A study conducted by ORB -- a well-known British polling agency which has been tracking public opinion in Iraq since 2005 -- estimated in September 2007 that 1.2 million Iraqis had been killed in violence-related incidents following the March 2003 invasion of the country.

This is while Human Rights Watch estimates put the number of those killed during a period of twenty years of the reign of deposed Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein at 250,000 to 290,000.
What was the justification you guys used to defend that war again? Oh, now I remember, Saddam was a bad guy who killed and tortured Iraqis and the Iraqi people needed to be "liberated" from this evil man.

The above stats I quoted are from an article which, by coincidence, indicates how happy the Iraqi people are with those policies.
 
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