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  #1  
Old 11-27-2008, 11:38 AM
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xentech xentech is offline
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Angry Christianity Is RACIST

I thought of this quite awhile ago. I am online using Christianity as an example, this applies to almost all religions.

If you are a Christian that means you believe that people who are not Christians are going to hell. Well, you have to accept that it is only by sheer CHANCE that you were born in a western culture whereby Christianity is the main religion.

That means you also have to accept that by chance you could have been born in Iraq, and would therefore be a Muslim. According to Christianity this means you would go to hell, end of, no questions asked!

A Christian may argue "everyone has equal opportunity to discover the true God". Well no, they don't actually. People born in Muslim countries are generally indoctrinated from age 1 to believe in Allah. They have NO choice in the matter. They are not allowed to be a non Muslim, plain and simple.

So according to Christianity, by the sheer chance that they were born in a non-western country that means they are going to hell.

I also think that this is quite a good example of why religions are absolute BS. Most people only believe in *for example* Christianity because their parents do, so they must also accept that if they were born into a non Christian family and are unlikely to be Christian in that scenario that they would be GOING TO HELL. This goes against the very nature of their religion.

Either God is picking and choosing the people who go to hell or the world is damned unfair place.

Discuss.

Last edited by xentech; 11-27-2008 at 11:41 AM.
 
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  #2  
Old 11-27-2008, 01:53 PM
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Not all Christians believe that those of other faiths are going to hell.

Why in the world would Heaven be compared to a mansion with many rooms.
 
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Old 11-27-2008, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by ScriptMan View Post
Not all Christians believe that those of other faiths are going to hell.

Why in the world would Heaven be compared to a mansion with many rooms.
Christians who take what they want from the Bible aren't even Christians in my opinion. You can't say 'the bible is the word of god', but only THESE parts of the Bible, the parts I like! That's absolutely ridiculous. You either believe it is God's word or you don't, and if you don't you're not a Christian - and that means you're going to hell

And I have no idea what relevance the second part of your comment has.
 
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Old 11-27-2008, 02:08 PM
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what do religion and ethnic groups have to do with each others>? This is plain dumb!
 
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Old 11-27-2008, 02:17 PM
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Scriptman is correct, not all christian faiths believe that one goes to hell.

And secondly, you mention a lot about this people going to hell thing. What one must remember, is that it is not up to Christians to decide who goes to heaven or hell (that is if people even go there) as this would mean that they are making Gods decisions for him and nobody has that power, not even Christians.

So if one tells you that you will go to hell, you can ask him "When did God step aside, give you the power to read ones heart and allow you to make his decisions for him?"

Also, Christians do not believe that people that have never had the chance to understand their faith will go to hell as how can one go to hell if one has never been given the chance?
 
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Old 11-27-2008, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by sitetutor View Post
what do religion and ethnic groups have to do with each others>? This is plain dumb!
Hehe, I'm not being literal that Christianity is racist, it was a joke. I'm just trying to point out the fact that there belief is stupid, since it is not a persons fault whether he believes in Christianity or not.

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Originally Posted by G10 View Post
Scriptman is correct, not all christian faiths believe that one goes to hell.

And secondly, you mention a lot about this people going to hell thing. What one must remember, is that it is not up to Christians to decide who goes to heaven or hell (that is if people even go there) as this would mean that they are making Gods decisions for him and nobody has that power, not even Christians.

So if one tells you that you will go to hell, you can ask him "When did God step aside, give you the power to read ones heart and allow you to make his decisions for him?"
Read my second post. You cannot be a Christian and just take what you want from the religion. Christians these days only 'believe' the good parts of the Bible, you cannot do that - part of Christianity is that the Bible is the word of God, the whole religion is centered around the Bible. By picking and choosing parts of the Bible to believe based on what THEY think is right or wrong is going against there own God, like you say it is God's choice of what is right or wrong and he clearly states that in the Bible.

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Originally Posted by G10 View Post
Also, Christians do not believe that people that have never had the chance to understand their faith will go to hell as how can one go to hell if one has never been given the chance?
It says in the Bible that if you are not a Christian you will go to hell, simple as that.
 
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  #7  
Old 11-27-2008, 03:45 PM
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You do make a good point in that people pick and choose and I agree with you on that.
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Originally Posted by xentech View Post
It says in the Bible that if you are not a Christian you will go to hell, simple as that.
I am not saying I know it all as I don't and am not religious but where does it say this?
 
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Old 11-27-2008, 06:03 PM
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Bible.org (I'm not sure what their affiliation is), has this page on hell in the Bible.

Though it seems a little indeterminate when taken as a whole, it does quote these passages:

(2) Hell will also punish the sin of those who reject Christ (Matthew 13:41,50; Revelation 20:11-15; 21:8 ).

Under "Erroneous views of Hell": (2) Universalism – All are eternally saved. Answer: It denies the truth of salvation through Christ which means that a person decides to either trust in Christ or else he/she rejects Christ and goes to hell (John 3:16;3:36).

Interesting page, but again I'm not sure about it's affiliations.
 
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  #9  
Old 11-27-2008, 09:29 PM
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Thanks for taking the time and helping me out there Ed, much appreciated

Though I must admit, some of those scriptures dont even mention hell as in going there etc.

Quote:
John 3:16 (New International Version)

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Quote:
Revelation 20:11-15 (New International Version)

The Dead Are Judged

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Here a number of people are already dead and in Hades, obviously as it says, they have not been judged yet and it is figuratively speaking as it says that even death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire.
Quote:
Revelation 21:8 (New International Version)
8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Though again it talks about the second death, it is figuratively speaking as one can tell by reading the verses before and after.

This said, the original point made was that all non-christians etc will go to hell and again, it does not say this.
Quote:
Matthew 13:41 (New International Version)
41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
Basically saying that all wickedness is going to be wiped out.

I am not denying that there isn't a hell/hades/sheol but what I am saying is that Christians have no ground to stand on so as to decide who goes to one place or another because as some of those scriptures say, this decision is made later on anyway and NOT by them.

That is just my basic take on what I read up there.
 
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  #10  
Old 11-28-2008, 02:02 AM
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Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by xentech View Post
Read my second post. You cannot be a Christian and just take what you want from the religion. Christians these days only 'believe' the good parts of the Bible, you cannot do that - part of Christianity is that the Bible is the word of God, the whole religion is centered around the Bible. By picking and choosing parts of the Bible to believe based on what THEY think is right or wrong is going against there own God, like you say it is God's choice of what is right or wrong and he clearly states that in the Bible.
I think that this whole thing about religion is not about 'racism' or being a 'racist' -far from it. Religion is not being taught right, that is where all the confusion and conflict is coming in. Real religion is and always will be pure, based on our inner ability to distinguish between right and wrong -then how we choose to use that ability. Available to be practiced by anyone from any part of the world, from which ever sect they were born. Most religions all have the same underlining principles that helped to define them. Like the first Holy Covenant. Some people saw them as the Ten Commandments. They were a simple set of rules, made by God and were part of one religion, before say Islam or Christianity ever began. Those religions came latter.

But the actual Covenant was the first three commandments actually. They say that it was the first two, or even the first, because the ways people listed the commandments differed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Com...e_Commandments

But like I said, it's the way man is teaching this is how religion gets flawed or misunderstood. The greatest law and most holy commandment that existed then and even in the Christian's new covenant, and even in Islam's Al'-Faitha doctrine have the same law. Maybe not in the same words, buy with the same meaning.

"I am the Lord your God (there is only One God)." "Thou shall not worship any other gods or any graven images." "Thou shall not take thy Holy name in vain (love thy Father will all thy heart and soul above all other things of this physical earth)."

That's the actual law of the father. But when we think that another religion doesn't have that same law, well then in our error we think that religion wasn't written by the same Father. Or that the people will go to hell. Then threw out history, we lose what was really meant to be remembered by the children of Abraham (Us -all religions). And that becomes our new sin we must bare (pass along to our children) -along with the many other sin as we fight amongst ourselves.

You are right, live is very unfair. But that is why we all possess the gift to know deep down within if something is right or not. Then if we find it not to be right, then it is our responsibility to stand against it. Even if it's our own religions, or the people who 'accidentally' taught it to us in their error (because they were also taught wrong, but never had enough courage to rise above the lies).
 
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  #11  
Old 11-28-2008, 03:46 AM
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Originally Posted by G10 View Post
Thanks for taking the time and helping me out there Ed, much appreciated

Though I must admit, some of those scriptures dont even mention hell as in going there etc.

Here a number of people are already dead and in Hades, obviously as it says, they have not been judged yet and it is figuratively speaking as it says that even death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire.
Though again it talks about the second death, it is figuratively speaking as one can tell by reading the verses before and after.

This said, the original point made was that all non-christians etc will go to hell and again, it does not say this.
Basically saying that all wickedness is going to be wiped out.

I am not denying that there isn't a hell/hades/sheol but what I am saying is that Christians have no ground to stand on so as to decide who goes to one place or another because as some of those scriptures say, this decision is made later on anyway and NOT by them.

That is just my basic take on what I read up there.
I admit I am not 100% certain the Bible says this, but if it doesn't I have been heavily misinformed by certain Christian people I have asked about this. Even if they don't believe that, many religions do and I am just trying to make the point that religion is contradictory and hypocritical in so many ways so I don't see how anyone could accept it as the word of God.

Some Christians these days do actually admit that not everything in the Bible is true and that it is not the word of God, but that is part of Christianity and I think if you think like that you are simply somebody who believes in God and just uses Christianity as a way of life taking from it what you want kidding yourself that you believe in those things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krahmaan View Post
I think that this whole thing about religion is not about 'racism' or being a 'racist' -far from it. Religion is not being taught right, that is where all the confusion and conflict is coming in. Real religion is and always will be pure, based on our inner ability to distinguish between right and wrong -then how we choose to use that ability. Available to be practiced by anyone from any part of the world, from which ever sect they were born. Most religions all have the same underlining principles that helped to define them. Like the first Holy Covenant. Some people saw them as the Ten Commandments. They were a simple set of rules, made by God and were part of one religion, before say Islam or Christianity ever began. Those religions came latter.

But the actual Covenant was the first three commandments actually. They say that it was the first two, or even the first, because the ways people listed the commandments differed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Com...e_Commandments

But like I said, it's the way man is teaching this is how religion gets flawed or misunderstood. The greatest law and most holy commandment that existed then and even in the Christian's new covenant, and even in Islam's Al'-Faitha doctrine have the same law. Maybe not in the same words, buy with the same meaning.

"I am the Lord your God (there is only One God)." "Thou shall not worship any other gods or any graven images." "Thou shall not take thy Holy name in vain (love thy Father will all thy heart and soul above all other things of this physical earth)."

That's the actual law of the father. But when we think that another religion doesn't have that same law, well then in our error we think that religion wasn't written by the same Father. Or that the people will go to hell. Then threw out history, we lose what was really meant to be remembered by the children of Abraham (Us -all religions). And that becomes our new sin we must bare (pass along to our children) -along with the many other sin as we fight amongst ourselves.

You are right, live is very unfair. But that is why we all possess the gift to know deep down within if something is right or not. Then if we find it not to be right, then it is our responsibility to stand against it. Even if it's our own religions, or the people who 'accidentally' taught it to us in their error (because they were also taught wrong, but never had enough courage to rise above the lies).
I disagree. I think the whole point of religion is that people do not decide what is wrong (except of course throughout history people have misused that to try to control people). Humans as a specie require authority, that is why government and religion have naturally occurred.

After all, no one really has authority to say what is right or wrong, objective morality does not exist. Christians believe that objective morality does exist and the one who decides it is God, but even that concept is subjective because hundreds of religions all around the world believe that their God accepts and doesn't accept different things.

If you're a modern Christian and you believe that God is the one who knows true morality, then why do so many of you now accept homosexuality? Because according to the Bible God certainly doesn't condone that.
 
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Old 11-28-2008, 03:46 AM
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xentech I don't believe that if you are not Christian then you'll go to hell how about our muslim, buddhist brothers and sisters. Where they'll go?

Whatever his religion might be who are we to judge if he is going to hell or not? We didn't even know his/her relationship with God. Our relationship with God is personal, it's up to us on how we recognize the presence of God in our lives.
 
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Old 11-28-2008, 03:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Dina312 View Post
xentech I don't believe that if you are not Christian then you'll go to hell how about our muslim, buddhist brothers and sisters. Where they'll go?

Whatever his religion might be who are we to judge if he is going to hell or not? We didn't even know his/her relationship with God. Our relationship with God is personal, it's up to us on how we recognize the presence of God in our lives.
If you're relationship with God is personal and everyone has a different relationship with him, then why do you need religion?
 
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  #14  
Old 11-28-2008, 04:35 AM
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G10:

Quote:
Revelation 21:8 (New International Version)
8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
So you are saying Paul Daniels is going to hell?

What about Sooty, he does magic too you know!
 
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Old 11-28-2008, 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by xentech View Post
I disagree. I think the whole point of religion is that people do not decide what is wrong (except of course throughout history people have misused that to try to control people). Humans as a specie require authority, that is why government and religion have naturally occurred.

After all, no one really has authority to say what is right or wrong, objective morality does not exist. Christians believe that objective morality does exist and the one who decides it is God, but even that concept is subjective because hundreds of religions all around the world believe that their God accepts and doesn't accept different things.

If you're a modern Christian and you believe that God is the one who knows true morality, then why do so many of you now accept homosexuality? Because according to the Bible God certainly doesn't condone that.
OK, so you disagree with men formating their own ideas of what is to be called 'right or wrong' on others? But that doesn't even touch what was in my last post. I said that you, just like I within our own individual selves have the ability to discern that which is 'right and wrong' to us. Without any help, you can't disagree with reason -the hight of all sciences? Because 'reason' IS that ability to discern. We all possess this.
 
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Old 11-28-2008, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by krahmaan View Post
OK, so you disagree with men formating their own ideas of what is to be called 'right or wrong' on others? But that doesn't even touch what was in my last post. I said that you, just like I within our own individual selves have the ability to discern that which is 'right and wrong' to us. Without any help, you can't disagree with reason -the hight of all sciences? Because 'reason' IS that ability to discern. We all possess this.
That is not what I'm saying. Of course we can decide within ourselves what is right or wrong, but that doesn't make it correct it is just your SUBJECTIVE view on morality.

We cannot freely let people decide for themselves what is right or wrong because then the world would be full of rape and murder, that is why government and religion have naturally formed because people in society need an authority to tell them what is right or wrong - means of control.

You can fight against the government's authority by either acting how you want to anyway or petitioning. However, when you become a member of a religion out of your own will you must fully adapt that line of morality.

I never said once in my post that people don't have the ability to decide what is right or wrong, of course they do - I am saying that religious people have to take into account what 'God' is saying is right or wrong.

Obviously the Bible is not the word of God, it is a man-made scripture and the people who have contributed to it have put there own morality in it. I can see this because I am not part of that religion, if I was part of that religion and truly believed it then I would HAVE to adhere to the morality of the Bible, or else I would not be a Christian. And this is the contradiction I am trying to point out.

Even you are saying 'religion is not taught right', this is a subjective claim, you have your own subjective opinion about how religion SHOULD be taught. The fact is that if Christianity (for example) was 100% correct then there would be few people going to heaven...
 
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Old 11-28-2008, 07:39 AM
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G10:
So you are saying Paul Daniels is going to hell?

What about Sooty, he does magic too you know!
I bloody well hope so

The lake of fire and burning sulphar is at it says, the second death meaning that there is no return.

Yes it is hell.sheol or hades but not the kind the christians (well some) imagine where souls go and get tormented. It just means that there is no chance of resurection from there.
 
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Old 11-28-2008, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by xentech View Post
That is not what I'm saying. Of course we can decide within ourselves what is right or wrong, but that doesn't make it correct it is just your SUBJECTIVE view on morality.

We cannot freely let people decide for themselves what is right or wrong because then the world would be full of rape and murder, that is why government and religion have naturally formed because people in society need an authority to tell them what is right or wrong - means of control.

You can fight against the government's authority by either acting how you want to anyway or petitioning. However, when you become a member of a religion out of your own will you must fully adapt that line of morality.

I never said once in my post that people don't have the ability to decide what is right or wrong, of course they do - I am saying that religious people have to take into account what 'God' is saying is right or wrong.

Obviously the Bible is not the word of God, it is a man-made scripture and the people who have contributed to it have put there own morality in it. I can see this because I am not part of that religion, if I was part of that religion and truly believed it then I would HAVE to adhere to the morality of the Bible, or else I would not be a Christian. And this is the contradiction I am trying to point out.

Even you are saying 'religion is not taught right', this is a subjective claim, you have your own subjective opinion about how religion SHOULD be taught. The fact is that if Christianity (for example) was 100% correct then there would be few people going to heaven...
Hey, I'm not a Christian myself. I'm one of those 'other guys' who's supposed to be going to hell. I was born a Muslim in fact, but I've studied many different religions. Even took the liberty to inquire about Agnostics, Atheists and Nihilists.

I respect everyone's beliefs, but it sometimes gets shocking when some beliefs go beyond the boundaries of 'clear thinking' and 'science'. Because I know that me myself given the free choice to decide what's right and wrong, I know for a fact I wouldn't choose to murder or to rape. But I guess that's only me -huh?

Wrong, for you to say that others wouldn't be able to make the same (right) inner choice not to do things like murder or rape on their own is almost like saying that only 'you' couldn't really make that choice for yourself. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that you couldn't, but from what you said that's how it sounds. It almost sounds like 'objective morality' just doesn't exist for you. Because you couldn't say it doesn't exist for me, you don't even know me. We can only speak for ourselves, & not for others. Basically the theme of your thread.
 
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Old 11-29-2008, 05:37 AM
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I sometimes wonder,...when "morality" is something that comes with religion (and according to their own words it comes only with the abrahamic brands of religion), why it is that statistics show higher crime, murder, divorce and teen pregnancy rates in "mainly christian" nations compared to mainly secular societies?


Makes you wonder about their self-proclaimed "morals" eh?

The research is existing btw...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...icle571206.ece

Last edited by Ferre; 11-29-2008 at 05:42 AM. Reason: added source link
 
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Old 11-29-2008, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by krahmaan View Post
Hey, I'm not a Christian myself. I'm one of those 'other guys' who's supposed to be going to hell. I was born a Muslim in fact, but I've studied many different religions. Even took the liberty to inquire about Agnostics, Atheists and Nihilists.

I respect everyone's beliefs, but it sometimes gets shocking when some beliefs go beyond the boundaries of 'clear thinking' and 'science'. Because I know that me myself given the free choice to decide what's right and wrong, I know for a fact I wouldn't choose to murder or to rape. But I guess that's only me -huh?

Wrong, for you to say that others wouldn't be able to make the same (right) inner choice not to do things like murder or rape on their own is almost like saying that only 'you' couldn't really make that choice for yourself. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that you couldn't, but from what you said that's how it sounds. It almost sounds like 'objective morality' just doesn't exist for you. Because you couldn't say it doesn't exist for me, you don't even know me. We can only speak for ourselves, & not for others. Basically the theme of your thread.
Objective morality does not exist.

You can make moral choices for yourself of course, every body can do this. What I'm trying to say is almost everyone has a different set of morals, none of them are right or wrong, just what that person THINKS is right or wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krahmaan View Post
It almost sounds like 'objective morality' just doesn't exist for you. Because you couldn't say it doesn't exist for me, you don't even know me. We can only speak for ourselves, & not for others. Basically the theme of your thread.
That doesn't make sense... I don't think you understand what objective morality means.

"Because you couldn't say it doesn't exist for me, you don't even know me."

The whole point of objective morality is that it can't exist for someone on a personal level. It means there is a complete morality which applies to all people. It's quite hard to explain because it doesn't exist or cannot be seen to exist, but to put it simply if there was a God who made a set of morals for people to live by - then this would be an objective morality which applies to everyone.

But the world isn't like that. All culture's and even people have different views and what is and isn't moral. To me and hopefully you having sex with a minor is immoral, however some groups around the world would disagree.

Objective morality can't not exist for me but exist for you, it either exists or it doesn't.
 
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