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Controversial Social Issues Discussions concerning controversial social issues. Topics include politics, religion, culture, social and economic issues, etc. Respect required at all times.


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  #81 (permalink)  
Old 12-18-2008, 02:57 AM
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I just finished reading this article on scienceblogs and apparently it's a habit of anti abortionists to display graphic pictures to create an emotional response in order to circumvent reason and science...

Quote:
Something struck me when I saw the photograph of this particular surgery. Here it is, a photo of a fetal foot flopping out of a bloody baby's brain (don't click if you're squeamish). As I'm sure you've noticed, anti-choice people love to parade about with gory photos of aborted fetuses, and they love to dwell on little details like a recognizable hand or face. This picture is exactly like those, yet realize this: there was no human being behind those little baby toes. The existence of these fragments of non-sentient tissue endangered the life of a child, and there was no question that they needed to be extracted.

This is also how we should view abortion. It's ugly and messy, and there's something disquietingly resonant of humanity in the pieces of the embryo or fetus, but we shouldn't be fooled. Those are beautifully patterned collections of differentiated cells, but there is no person there.
 

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  #82 (permalink)  
Old 12-18-2008, 03:09 AM
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Quote:
Those are beautifully patterned collections of differentiated cells, but there is no person there.
I respectfully and adamantly disagree. I promised myself that I was going to stay out of this debate, but after the above quoted comment, I felt I had to respond. I am 100% pro life.

My mother was involved in a very serious wreck when she was nearly seven months pregnant and was hemorrhaging badly. During the process of saving her life the doctors began demanding permission to abort the "fetus" to help stabilize her.

Following multiple tests, they assured my parents repeatedly that the "fetus" would never live and was likely already brain dead. If by some miracle the "fetus" survived it there would be no hope that the "fetus" would have anything close to a normal life.

My parent truly felt that it was not their choice (or the doctors choice to make) and they refused to sign for the procedure. My father said that he had faith that what was supposed to happen would. If the "baby" should die, then so be it, but not by their signature.

That fetus that would never live, that was likely already brain dead, was born a screaming and loudly hiccuping healthy baby girl with absolutely no effects from the wreck beyond being a full month late coming into the world.

They gave that miracle baby the middle name of Faith.

Since that "fetus" was me, I am pretty happy they felt it wasn't their decision to make.
 
  #83 (permalink)  
Old 12-18-2008, 03:37 AM
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Thanks for telling us this story and your viewpoint Cricket and I must say that I agree with you that at 7 months a baby in development isn't a foetus any more. If I'm not wrong there are babies born too early who survive and grow up to have a normal life. In the Netherlands, where Abortion is legal it is only legal within 3 months of a pregnancy and there is a very good and scientifically based reasoning behind this (this discussion has been long time over with and settled in the Dutch political and social environment)). I'm not a biologist but I understand that it has to do with the stages of development of the cells, at a certain point the brain and other senses start to develop in such a way that the foetus becomes a "person", 7 months passed that stage long time.

Apparently, from a scientific biological point of view, a compilation and merger of cells in development will only develop features which makes it a "person" after it has developed into a certain stage and apparently that's after 3 months.


Oh, btw,... my mother died in a car crash at my 11th birthday, does that give my stance on abortion some "emotional value" too?

Last edited by Ferre; 12-18-2008 at 03:42 AM.
 
  #84 (permalink)  
Old 12-18-2008, 12:18 PM
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I shouldnt feed the troll.. but

Suicide, abortion, and butchering animals should all be legal... BUT you should do everything possible to try to prevent the need for it.
 
  #85 (permalink)  
Old 12-19-2008, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by antirem View Post
I shouldnt feed the troll.. but

Suicide, abortion, and butchering animals should all be legal... BUT you should do everything possible to try to prevent the need for it.
Like what? Microwaving cats Beavis and Butthead style?
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old 12-19-2008, 06:18 PM
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This is a debate that will never end, no one will be convinced otherwise, and so on. When the largest factor involved is religious belief or conditioning (for those who do not practice), the outcome will never be "resolved". So wee all can continue to hammer our heads against the wall, or come to the conclusion that the laws will only change when those in power have a strong personal belief beyond popular vote...and even then you have to convince lawmakers...a lot like reading this thread.
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  #87 (permalink)  
Old 12-19-2008, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antirem View Post
I shouldnt feed the troll.. but

Suicide, abortion, and butchering animals should all be legal... BUT you should do everything possible to try to prevent the need for it.
Why would anyone want to prevent the need to butcher animals? You lost me there.
 
  #88 (permalink)  
Old 12-19-2008, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antirem View Post
Suicide, abortion, and butchering animals should all be legal... BUT you should do everything possible to try to prevent the need for it.
It seems that a multi-faceted approach towards prevention would include such areas as nutrition, sex education, early diagnosis, medication, and more would have a beneficial effect.

Anyway, it would have more of a positive effect than ranting and raving....
 
  #89 (permalink)  
Old 12-19-2008, 11:08 PM
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Though I think murder is bad, I suppose that Abortion is necessary. What if the woman just cant afford a lid, because of her age, or some other reasons. The children of such women may have awful life, with no education, no adequate upbringing. The more so because stem cells researches could save life of heavily sick people...

About suicide - I should not be allowed. The only exclusion is euthanasia. When person doesn't want to live anymore, because of desease like cancer, or aids, or other factors making life only on impossible.

Since I suppose that the meaning of life, the function of Human is to gather and transfer information, I think impossibility of operating with information stops the life in fact. The death itself means complete informational isolation, nothing is to be seen by your eyes anymore, nothing is smelled by your nose anymore, nothing is felt with your skin, nothing is tasted by the tongue anymore. Complete nothing! Could you imagine this?
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Last edited by Pacman; 12-19-2008 at 11:25 PM.
 
  #90 (permalink)  
Old 12-19-2008, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacman View Post
Though I think murder is bad, I suppose that Abortion is necessary. What if the woman just cant afford a lid, because of her age, or some other reasons. The children of such women may have awful life, with no education, no adequate upbringing. The more so because stem cells researches could save life of heavily sick people...

About suicide - I should not be allowed. The only exclusion is euthanasia. When person doesn't want to live anymore, because of desease like cancer, or aids, or other factors making life only on impossible.

Since I suppose that the meaning of life, the function of Human is to gather and transfer information, I think impossibility of operating with information stops the life in fact. The death itself means complete informational isolation, nothing is to be seen by your eyes anymore, nothing is smelled by your nose anymore, nothing is felt with your skin, nothing is tasted by the tongue anymore. Complete nothing! Could you imagine this?
I know a lot of people from bad upbringins who turned out great, and others who had everything going for them go down the drain. You cannot determine a child's future based on the parent's state of mind. Period!
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  #91 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2008, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacman View Post
(...) Since I suppose that the meaning of life, the function of Human is to gather and transfer information, (...)
Is this to say, then, that the function is the meaning?
 
  #92 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2008, 01:38 PM
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Uh oh, Atom's stropping his blade.

OK, I'll stay out now.
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  #93 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2008, 05:53 PM
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Guards, seize him!
 
  #94 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2008, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
You cannot determine a child's future based on the parent's state of mind. Period!
You cannot presume upon the mother's state of mind...
 
  #95 (permalink)  
Old 12-23-2008, 06:26 PM
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wow this is seriously a good debate with a couple of off the wall comments. Here is my question though. One member stated that they were against abortion but with limits. I am confused. Why is it alright to kill when let's say the sexual encounter was an "ooppss" as opposed to the sexual encounter being a rape? You are still killing the same fetus right? Now please don't get me wrong, I do understand that in the latter of the instances the woman is not asking to be involved in a sexual encounter, but still the question remains, isn't that just being hypocritical to an extent. furthermore, how can anyone (myself included) determine what the value of a lifeform is? Is the accidental consensual pregnancy worth more/less than the encounter that was not consensual?

As for suicide, honestly, who are we to judge if someone feels that their own personal life is not important to them. That is just a way of decreasing the population. As long as it doesn't interfere physically with others (by this I mean that the form of suicide was not getting into a head on collision with another vehicle, other examples like that) then hey let them do it in the privacy of their own homes/dwellings. Who are we really to judge?
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  #96 (permalink)  
Old 12-23-2008, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Is the accidental consensual pregnancy worth more/less than the encounter that was not consensual?
No, the pregnancy itself, or the fetus, is not any different in value. (although you would be forced to admit that the actual life involved cannot be the same) But you need to keep in mind that any pregnency is the confluence of two lives. This brings up the issue of conditions in addition to the pregnency itself. Which life is more important?

What is the difference between murder (cold blodded) and killing in war? The life value is equal in the eyes of 'God'....Is it possible to murder innocent people in war?...yes, of course...

Some people feel execution is justified. Is that killing justified? What if later the person is found innocent?

My point is that conditions enter every life/death decision.
 
  #97 (permalink)  
Old 01-15-2009, 06:20 PM
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Religious beliefs or disbeliefs can but do not necessarily have anything to do with this topic.
 
  #98 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2009, 10:20 AM
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Wow, awful pictures. I think abortion should be up to the mother if she is within say 8 or 12 weeks of pregnancy - no later unless lack of termination would cause a danger to the mother. Legal suicide sounds crazy. More place for people to get help would be required. Assisted suicide is a reasonable solution for people who are dying in pain, and that should be balance on the strength of the closest relative, and a majority of doctors, lets say refer it to 10 specialist to see if the pain / life can be improved.
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