How can we stop this?

[StrongInTheArm]

OK, I know this is the politics forum, but let us not get carried away with the bad language and name calling please GENTLEMEN!

[rabble]

Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm

OK, I know this is the politics forum, but let us not get carried away with the bad language and name calling please GENTLEMEN!

Darn! and I was just starting to get a head of steam.

[andr97]

I'm strongly convinced that people just adore put blame on other shoulders, that's why the problems can't be solved so fast as we want them to stop

[herman333]

every tech companies are on retrenchment right now...it's too alarming...

[Harveyj]

SITA: We haven't resorted to name calling each other... I thought 3rd parties were ok

pgzan: Ok, for a start, Atlas Shrugged is every bit as fictional as The Matrix, written by a diagnosed monomaniac as a reaction to the Communists that she imagined where in the union movement because of her own childhood in which actual Communism took away everything her family had worked for. That the Rand Institute, one of the creepier right wing think tanks out there is named after her has even made her something of a joke in the Jewish community as "Aryan Rand".
Hell! People that live by Objectivism are generally about as objective as Scientologists are scientific...
If you're going to live by that same incomprehensible logic of living by a fictional work, you should at least do it by someone that lives in the current era, like Ben Elton. Or better yet, J K Rowling, because I assure you, it's about as realistic.

Obama is not a marxist, by any stretch of the imagination of the politically educated... which you clearly are not if you can't even distinguish a 50 year old fictional story from actual reality.

Seriously, why don't you go try living in a north western European country for a while. THEN you'll see what a socialist society is actually like. The Scandinavian countries work quite well in fact.
Oh, and if you want to know what a society is truly like when under the rule of a real marxist, stay for a spell in Cuba.

[pgzn]

A few points in rebuttal.
I'm aware that the book is fictional. Everyone is. Even so, it is quite influential:
http://www.englishcompanion.com/Read...s/loclist.html

Respondents to the Survey of Lifetime Reading Habits, conducted [fall 1991] for the Book-of-the-Month Club and the Library of Congress' Center for the Book, cited the following when asked to name a book that had made a difference in their lives:

1.) The Bible**
2.) Atlas Shrugged, by Ayn Rand

Point number two
Obama was born a marxist, raised a marxist. His supporters are marxists.

Point number three
Socialism doesn't work, has never worked, and never will work. And I cite back to Rand:

9. Can There Be A "Mixed" Social System?

There can be no social system which is a mixture of Individualism and Collectivism. Either individual rights are recognized in a society, or they are not recognized. They cannot be half-recognized.
What frequently happens, however, is that a society based on Individualism does not have the courage, integrity and intelligence to observe its own principle consistently in every practical application. Through ignorance, cowardice, or mental sloppiness, such a society passes laws and accepts regulations which contradict its basic principle and violate the rights of man. To the extent of such violations, society perpetrates injustices, evils, and abuses. If the breaches are not corrected, society collapses into the chaos of Collectivism.
When you see a society that recognizes man's rights in some of its laws but not in others, do not hail it as a "mixed " system and do not conclude that a compromise between basic principles, opposed in theory, can be made to work in practice. Such a society is not working; it is merely disintegrating. Disintegration takes time. Nothing falls to pieces immediately -- neither a human body nor a human society.

Or Reagan:
“You and I are told we must choose between a left or right, but I suggest there
is no such thing as a left or right. There is only an up or down. Up to man’s age-old
dream -- the maximum of individual freedom consistent with order – or down to the ant
heap of totalitarianism.

[rabble]

Originally Posted by pgzn

A few points in rebuttal.

I would submit your entire argument is nihilistic. Your embrace of false objectivism and laissez-fair capitalism are carefully chosen to sanctify beliefs and actions which are obviously unprofitable here at the dawn of the 21st century.

The world is a very small place. Resources are becoming scarce and time for those with elitist self-serving mentalities like your own to realize the error of their previous ways is growing short.

[pgzn]

Sorry, compared to socialism, objectivism was just born. Your efforts to portray it as out of date are as futile as socialism itself.

[babbelon]

I posted my views on this issue in another topic. Heres the quote.

Though I am all for extra $$$ to spend I want to be able to afford that extra spending $$$ again and again! That is why I believe we need to reduce and or eliminate our dependence on international consumer products such as gasoline/oil and we need to focus on the stimulation of our system of employment.

I think the best way to stimulate our economy from the employment or working class perspective is to selectively lower taxes on BOTH the business/employers side AND the workers/individuals side. My supporting reasons for this tactic are:

By cutting the cost of operations for business' and employers we enable said entities the resources and ability to offer additional employment opportunities, better incentives for said employment opportunities (higher pay, more frequent raises ect..) and thereby put more money into consumers pockets.

By cutting taxes on the individuals side we are complimenting the benefits offered by the above mentioned idea. This in turn increases consumer spending and further reinforces our economy through a steady flow of extra spending $$$!

Furthermore, the above tactic will provide a fertile market for new and small business' (which are started by consumers and working class citizens) to start re emerging. This is important because as of right now small and medium sized business' account for approximately 1/3-2/3 of all jobs within the US economy. That's a BIG chunk!

In conclusion I would like to state that while it is difficult to see one man/woman who has built his/her business from the ground up driving around in a BMW while others can't even afford a roll of Tissue Paper, that man/woman has worked damn hard to get that BMW and he/she has also done a considerable favor to his/her community by providing it with additional employment opportunities to strengthen it's economy. The consumers and working class are only 1/3-1/4 of the whole pie. The big business' need a break too and if we ever hope to survive this economic crisis we need to encourage the creation/expansion of small/medium sized business'.

[Natural Elements]

Well it is not exactly the same topic Babbelon, but it is related.

How can we stop this mess? Was the original question of this thread.

I don't think the best thing to do is to create mutiple programs. It would be better to create fewer, more in depth programs to target job creation.

As far as the tax cut, I don't think it would work so simply. I would give tax cut of $2000 per new job created and limit to a certain amount depending on how many people are working in the company.

For example: 0-10 employees, tax cut of $4000 for 2 people hired, 0-20 $8000 for 4 people hired, etc...

If you do the calculation, it would cost less than speculating on new expensive programs that may not work at all.

Companies will save money, and people will get jobs.

[rabble]

I disagree any plan to artificially create jobs in the private sector will work.

Jobs are being shed for two reasons:

1. the rapid decline in consumer spending which reduces demand.
2. the inability of business to acquire credit funding for day to day operations.

there is no easy way out of this mess.

In general I support the Obama plan of reinstating the social safety net. prudent tax cuts for the lower and middle classes and a public investment in infrastructure, education and alternative energy while we wait for a future recovery to occur.

One thing I absolutely disagree with the Obama team on is this:

The crazy idea to start a 'bad bank'! Like ... we don't already have enough bad banks?

[Natural Elements]

That's the problem, we cannot wait for a futur recovery to occur.

People need to eat, think about all the family in distress because they lost their jobs, go in forclosure, etc... Ask them is they can wait.

[rabble]

Here's the bad news NE.

Government can't get us out of the mortgage crisis.
Not only are big banks too big to fail. They are also too big to save.
All monies put into the banking system at this point is simply going to
be swallowed up into a gaping black hole. Therefore ... all monies spent to
save homeowners from foreclosure falls into the same black hole.

The only real possibility I can see to maneuver out of this mess is
not even reasonably being discussed in congress. It would be multi parted.

1. change the bankruptcy laws pronto. They are so onerous at present that a quarter of us will be indentured slaves by 2025.

2. let the corporate banks fail.

The sooner we do this the better.
It only gets uglier in out years.

[babbelon]

Not only are big banks too big to fail. They are also too big to save.

I don't quite think they are too big to fail though I do agree that they are too big to save with the current "George W." Bail out.

The only real possibility I can see to maneuver out of this mess is
not even reasonably being discussed in congress. It would be multi parted.

1. change the bankruptcy laws pronto. They are so onerous at present that a quarter of us will be indentured slaves by 2025.

2. let the corporate banks fail.

The sooner we do this the better.
It only gets uglier in out years.

As far as your "serves them right" approach goes.. The big banks made the mistake of acquiring the bad credit/mortgages and in a sense they should have to pay the price for those mistakes BUT, if they do fail and the banking system stays in it's current state or even worsens ALL business' who rely on those banks to obtain working capital (which mind you is used to create new jobs) will not be able to receive the working capital that they are desperately seeking. Which in short means that fewer if any new jobs will be made available and current jobs will be cut or possibly eliminated all together.

By letting the "root" of our economic structure (the banks) decay and rot away we would effectively be cutting our own throats and making what is now a huge mess even worse. We need to reinforce our current business and banking infrastructure with comprehensive tax based incentives designed to promote new jobs. by promoting new jobs we will be putting money back into the working class' pockets which means they in turn will have the money to pay for their bad credit which in turn allows banks to give more working capital to companies. The cycle goes on and in the end our economy will be fixed.

If we ever expect to see better days we need to focus on getting people back to work and getting money in their (our) pockets.

[rabble]

I am not unmindful of the need for people and small business to have access to credit capital. To fill that need we should be setting up local credit bureau's to fill that need.

They could be founded with the current and future tarp monies. They could be required to keep public records for public scrutiny and they could be required to follow specific guidelines of faithful public operation. They would be totally unencumbered by the possibly bottomless debt of the corporate banks.

I continue to insist that money thrown at the corporate banks is money being thrown into a dark hole.
Americans must insist their money go toward establishing a new type of banking. Not thrown as a sacrifice
to the unpredictable and uncontrollable corporate and god-like banks of beore.

[babbelon]

Originally Posted by rabble

I am not unmindful of the need for people and small business to have access to credit capital. To fill that need we should be setting up local credit bureau's to fill that need.

They could be founded with the current and future tarp monies. They could be required to keep public records for public scrutiny and they could be required to follow specific guidelines of faithful public operation. They would be totally unencumbered by the possibly bottomless debt of the corporate banks.

I continue to insist that money thrown at the corporate banks is money being thrown into a dark hole.
Americans must insist their money go toward establishing a new type of banking. Not thrown as a sacrifice
to the unpredictable and uncontrollable corporate and god-like banks of beore.

So what you are saying is that you would rather have a government controlled banking system with strict regulations developed by the government...They would be making the rules for them selves which means they will have complete and total control!

A government controlled network of credit bureau's would create a new government controlled industry which would in turn create more long term and possibly permanent expenses for tax payers to bear on top of an already faltering economy.

Also, I'm sure that I speak for the majority of Americans when I say that it would be insane to allow our government have so much control over our business' (big, medium and small)! We would essentially be allowing the government/politicians to pick and choose which business' get credit and which business' do not. Which ultimately means they decide whether or not any company no matter it's size will become or remain successful.

Granted our banking system is faulty and granted the big corporations are very much evil but let me ask you this.. Is our government any better? Would you allow our government to have direct control over the business' which effect your daily life in every way?

We are a consumer based (capitalist) country and our lives are pretty much depend on the same business' that the government would be free to "maneuver" in whichever direction it see's fit. so in short, what I'm trying to say is we'd be taking a huge step toward allowing our government imperialistic power over our already limited free lives.

[rabble]

I am not saying creating public banks is an optimal solution. What I am saying is doing so would seem the fastest way to get credit into the hands of those who need it. It also has the added benefit of doing an end around the corporate banks which are sucking up the tarp monies to service their own debt and who actually couldn't care less about the consumer.

This in turn would free us up from this awful distraction of figuring out what to do about the old banks and leave them free to work out their circle jerk capitalism amongst themselves. That is, after all, what bankruptcy courts are for.

[babbelon]

I still think that incentives to create more jobs and maybe even strict guidelines added to our current banking system will fix the economy in a more appropriate way.

If we allow the banking system to remain independent while providing strict operational guidelines to the current banking system we can avoid the costs of setting up a new system while fixing our current economic crisis and protecting our rights as individuals.

[rabble]

Originally Posted by babbelon

I still think that incentives to create more jobs and maybe even strict guidelines added to our current banking system will fix the economy in a more appropriate way.

If we allow the banking system to remain independent while providing strict operational guidelines to the current banking system we can avoid the costs of setting up a new system while fixing our current economic crisis and protecting our rights as individuals.

It doesn't require a new system to let the bad banks fail.
Whem they fail they will already be taken over as they have always been
by FDIC and rules are already in place for that.

The real problem is that monied interests are trying to manipulate
our political process for their financial gain.

[babbelon]

Oh my corporate america would never do anything like that! (sarcasm)