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  #21  
Old 02-08-2009, 10:25 AM
WhatsLeft WhatsLeft is offline
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Essentially what we have been considering in this thread on the stimulus package is Keynesian economics, developed by John Maynard Keynes in the 1930s. Keynes’ theories influenced Franklin Roosevelt, but some today question to what extent FDR’s stimulus spending helped the USA out of the great depression, rather than the spending in WWII, which focused on technological advances and increased industrial production. However, what caught Roosevelt’s attention was Nazi Germany during pre-WWII. How could it be that Germany was moving into prosperity, while the rest of the world struggled with depression? Hitler had no time for economics. His theory was merely putting people to work and then paying them. However, it was productive work, and the economic method was essentially consistent with Keynes.

The LA Times did an editorial today saying Keynes’ theory will not work this time, because the real problem is private debt.

It’s interesting that the Wall Street Journal also put out an article on a speech by a Microsoft executive to some Congressional leaders, wherein he cites the main problem as private sector debt. He notes that at the time of the Great Depression the private debt to GDP ratio was 160%, while today it is 300%. Thus, he says it is debt that has been driving the economy, rather than technological innovation and production, and that is what has to change.

The stimulus plan has to focus on technology to achieve energy independence and increased manufacturing. As it stands now, it focuses on changing social policy.
 
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  #22  
Old 02-08-2009, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by WhatsLeft View Post
Essentially what we have been considering in

The stimulus plan has to focus on technology to achieve energy independence and increased manufacturing. As it stands now, it focuses on changing social policy.
Please read the following concerning technology and the stimulus plans. I think you will see it provides a vigorous technology boost:


http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...2339896,00.asp
 
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  #23  
Old 02-08-2009, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by FocalPoint View Post
Please read the following concerning technology and the stimulus plans. I think you will see it provides a vigorous technology boost:


http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...2339896,00.asp
The link you provided says 650 million for DTV and 6 to 9 Billion to increase Broadband to rural areas.

Did I miss something?!??

The stimulus package proposed is a minimum of 780 Billion dollars.

I'm sorry -- calling this proposal on the DTV and Broadband a technology stimulus is completely ridiculous!!!

We need energy independence. We need a more competitive automotive industry producing electric and hydrogen alternatives. We need more oil and coal free power plants.

America has always been at the forefront of communications technology -- the post office was even put in our constitution... not just to promote freedom of speech but to keep us at the competitive edge of business ventures. But right now, communications is not the problem in our economy. We are still at the forefront. Giving rural areas broadband is not economic stimulus -- it is social policy.

I want power plants. I want off-shore drilling. I want the auto industry to have the competitive age. And this type of stimulation eventually will lead to farmers being able to e-mail more efficiently on the internet as our country prospers.

Last edited by WhatsLeft; 02-08-2009 at 03:21 PM. Reason: changed to 780 from 720
 
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  #24  
Old 02-08-2009, 11:29 PM
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Sell Alaska back to Russia... or Maybe China.
Lots of oil that American Govt seems unwilling to harvest themselves, it means one less thing a war is likely to start over in 50 years time when idiots who haven't learned their lessons about energy independence come looking for more oil, and the simple majority of the populace clearly don't want Sarah Palin around... It's Win-Win-Win
 
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  #25  
Old 02-09-2009, 07:53 PM
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Sell Alaska back to Russia...
We bought Alaska in anticipation of China becoming an economic power house. Yep, the theory of China dominating the world economy has been around that long -- but now the question is, why did it take so long for China to come on economically. Gee-- could it be that there are cultural factors to prosperity. Maybe, that's why Australia is one of the richer economies in the world.

I just listened to Obama's first press conference. I never heard so much gobbly-gook. No wonder NBC did no real analysis, but just said "good-bye."

Obama mentioned how the last eight years proves change is needed. I don't get it. I didn't try to prosper at all these last eight years, but they have been the best I've known. If I can just keep going as I have been, everything will be just swell. In fact, I only know about an economic slow down, because it's in the news. Where I'm at, I don't see any slow down at all. Well, it is just a little bit easier to get a table at a restaurant and to find a parking space at the mall. I'm actually grateful for that much, but I hope no one is suffering for the added convenience.

I think it's interesting that the media compares Obama to Lincoln. Actually, Lincoln had a ridge accent. Yep, his speech was rather much like Sarah Palin's. He would have felt most at home with her.
 
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  #26  
Old 02-11-2009, 06:29 AM
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I think this link is a very interesting on the techniques Reagan used to turn around the economy compared to Obama's method.
 
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  #27  
Old 02-11-2009, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatsLeft View Post
I think this link is a very interesting on the techniques Reagan used to turn around the economy compared to Obama's method.
WhatsLeft thanks for the link, it was very interesting.

When the Bush tax cuts lapse, we will have a "I give you this much of tax cuts" and another hand they will "take it back"

Basically the same socialism policies we had in France with the impression to get something, but in fact nothing for people. It is just moving around the numbers.
 
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  #28  
Old 02-14-2009, 11:52 AM
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I think one possible way to stimulate our economy is to allow 401 k owners the ability to take they're 401k's tax free to buy foreclosed homes & get them off the books. While this would could create a drop in the stock market, a fair amount of 401 k owners could own their home outright. and as long as they still have a job this would create a massive change in they're spending habbits as they would have a large amount of money to spend on goods and services or on investing in the stock market as the market should be dead for quite some time considering it's poor reputation worldwide! This would have to be done in stages as to not effect the rental markets to any great degree. Just an Idea for thought, instead of watching your 401k flatline for the next 5+ years you could possibly own your own home outright with no loan payments. this could make a large amount of people fairly wealthy and flush with money every payday!
 
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  #29  
Old 02-14-2009, 12:49 PM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightSquid View Post
I think one possible way to stimulate our economy is to allow 401 k owners the ability to take they're 401k's tax free to buy foreclosed homes & get them off the books. While this would could create a drop in the stock market, a fair amount of 401 k owners could own their home outright. and as long as they still have a job this would create a massive change in they're spending habbits as they would have a large amount of money to spend on goods and services or on investing in the stock market as the market should be dead for quite some time considering it's poor reputation worldwide! This would have to be done in stages as to not effect the rental markets to any great degree. Just an Idea for thought, instead of watching your 401k flatline for the next 5+ years you could possibly own your own home outright with no loan payments. this could make a large amount of people fairly wealthy and flush with money every payday!
This is a good idea.

As far as the tax break, $400 for a single and $800 for a couple, this will make respectively a "tax cut" of $33 for a single and $66 for a couple per month which is just a JOKE.

What about families with kids, who are struggling the most than anybody else?
Oops they forgot them...
 
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  #30  
Old 02-14-2009, 03:51 PM
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bitch, bitch, bitch.

I'm somewhat happy with the stimulus package
and any complaints I might have are mute at this point,
considering it is already passed.

I do agree the tax cut is laughable.
It gives absolutely 0 dollars to the people who need help the most.
The people who are already paying no taxes at all ...
the working poor.

Thank god they raised food stamps,
but not nearly enough to offset food inflation resulting from the
misguided shift to corn ethanol.

Last edited by rabble; 02-14-2009 at 03:55 PM.
 
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  #31  
Old 02-15-2009, 05:33 AM
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bitch, bitch, bitch.
Are you quoting Herbert Hoover?
 
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  #32  
Old 02-15-2009, 08:03 AM
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Here's an opinion from the London Times on Obama's stimulus plan, which is another interesting perspective.
 
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  #33  
Old 02-15-2009, 08:19 AM
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Where I'm coming from ... I question everybody.

I was a democrat until 1994.
In 1996 and 2000 I voted Green with Ralph Nader.
In 2004 I voted for John Kerry, but only because of
Dennis Kucinich's impassioned plea I should do so.

In 2008 I voted for
Cynthia Ann McKinney (Green Party again ).

At heart I am probably what one would call an 'ethical anarchist'.
I opposed the Wall St. bailout. I was somewhat ambivalent as to this
stimulus bill. But; I really, really, really oppose the upcoming 2.5 trillion
dollar bank bailout.

Why do you ask if I'm quoting Hoover?
(My dad hated Hoover)
He had something to do with corn ethanol?

Last edited by rabble; 02-15-2009 at 08:24 AM.
 
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  #34  
Old 02-15-2009, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatsLeft View Post
Here's an opinion from the London Times on Obama's stimulus plan, which is another interesting perspective.
Yes. A very good article. Pretty much the lay of the land as I see it.

I'm planting a garden this year for the first time ever. Just to get in some practice before it really starts to matter next year. These are exciting times though. To quote Bob Dylan ( as opposed to Hoover )
A change is gonna come.

None of this crap is gonna work and the Kings and Queens (mostly kings)
of corporate capitalism are going down. I am very hopeful..
 
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  #35  
Old 02-15-2009, 08:39 AM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabble View Post
Where I'm coming from ... I question everybody.

I was a democrat until 1994.
In 1996 and 2000 I voted Green with Ralph Nader.
In 2004 I voted for John Kerry, but only because of
Dennis Kucinich's impassioned plea I should do so.

In 2008 I voted for
Cynthia Ann McKinney (Green Party again ).

At heart I am probably what one would call an 'ethical anarchist'.
I opposed the Wall St. bailout. I was somewhat ambivalent as to this
stimulus bill. But; I really, really, really oppose the upcoming 2.5 trillion
dollar bank bailout.

Why do you ask if I'm quoting Hoover?
(My dad hated Hoover)
He had something to do with corn ethanol?
There is a new bank bail out on his way about 1 trillion, why not if everybody fall in this game?

Bitch bitch bitch? I agree but what futur we are leaving for our children and grand children? An abyssal deficit on 2 or 3 American generations?

That's just a pillage to save the elite people money, stock market, investments and assets.

Last edited by Franc Tireur; 02-15-2009 at 08:42 AM.
 
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  #36  
Old 02-15-2009, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post
Bitch bitch bitch? I agree but what futur we are leaving for our children and grand children? An abyssal deficit on 2 or 3 American generations?

That's just a pillage to save the elite people money, stock market, investments and assets.
I agree it looks like pillage, and ... if successful ... will leave our children and
grandchildren begging for a piece of bread. I am mindful that social security ..
which has strangely been left out of the current debate ... was already penciled in for a 20% reduction in payments by 2047. Does that reduction now come in 2030? Or even earlier?
And how will the payments acyually stack up in real terms against the massive anounts
of inflation that is sure to come?

We're screwed!

On the whole ... I remain optimistic.
2012 is just around the corner.
 
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  #37  
Old 02-15-2009, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabble View Post
In 2004 I voted for John Kerry, but only because of
Dennis Kucinich's impassioned plea I should do so...
Why do you ask if I'm quoting Hoover?
Ok... well, now they are saying the only reason Obama "screwed up" the cabinet appointments is because Rahm Emanuel did not do his job right. So who screwed up in picking Rahm Emanuel? They don't cover that point. Maybe, Rahm will have to go, to cover for comrade Obama. I thought Obama should have picked comrade Kucinich for Chief of Staff to begin with... the two are so much alike, or so it seems to me.

What else could Hoover say to his critics, who didn't like his policies? But your dad didn't think they were just complainers. Hoover may have been following the same philosophy as Obama -- "better to do it wrong but fast, than to do nothing at all. Now stop complaining and do what I tell you, or the world might end tomorrow." I think, if I recall, Hoover campaigned on the image of hope but I don't recall that part of history now. If he did, it also turned to fear and anger quickly.
 
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  #38  
Old 02-20-2009, 06:23 AM
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does he really has an understanding about what economy is?
 
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  #39  
Old 02-20-2009, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatsLeft View Post
I thought Obama should have picked comrade Kucinich for Chief of Staff to begin with... the two are so much alike, or so it seems to me.
You've finally said something I can while-heartedly agree with.
Although, I think Obama is nothing like Dennis Kucinich. In fact,
Obama colluded with Hillary and John Edwards to kick the other
democratic candidates off the debate platform early on and essentially
fixed the race.

I am not a democrat and I have a wait and see attitude about Obama.
I don't believe he can walk on water and I don't believe there is any easy fix
for this economic crisis that has been 40 years in the making.
 
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  #40  
Old 02-20-2009, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
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does he really has an understanding about what economy is?
Nobody understands the economy. It is an observational science like
psychology. All theory and conjecture.

Maybe what we really need is a valium laced water supply.
 
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