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  #1  
Old 02-06-2009, 10:26 AM
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Pregnancy Ethics

Have a quick read on the following two recent items of news:

Ethical concerns raised as woman, 60, gives birth to twins
Quote:
A 60-year-old Calgary woman who had long sought motherhood completed her quest this week when she gave birth to twins after seeking fertility treatments overseas, raising questions about the medical and ethical implications of in vitro fertilization and pregnancy at an advanced age.
Mother of octuplets had all her 14 children by IVF
Quote:
An ethical debate is raging in America about why so many embryos were implanted in a woman aged under 35, particularly if the doctor or clinic involved knew that she already had six children
There is no doubt that, to these women, their children are blessings. But what is your opinion about the possible ethical implications involving finances, health, age, and support that these articles highlight?
 
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  #2  
Old 02-06-2009, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by chicgeek View Post


There is no doubt that, to these women, their children are blessings. But what is your opinion about the possible ethical implications involving finances, health, age, and support that these articles highlight?
I found this whole thing to be highly hypocritical. Here we have so-called supporters of "reproductive freedom" saying she had a moral obligation to abort the kids. (Google search Abortion is cool, overpopulation isn't)

Ethics? I think the really pertinent ethics question is when will society quit judging others?
 
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  #3  
Old 02-08-2009, 06:31 PM
krahmaan krahmaan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicgeek View Post
Have a quick read on the following two recent items of news:

Ethical concerns raised as woman, 60, gives birth to twins


Mother of octuplets had all her 14 children by IVF


There is no doubt that, to these women, their children are blessings. But what is your opinion about the possible ethical implications involving finances, health, age, and support that these articles highlight?
I'm not too sure about these cases of ivf. But from what I know about the subject, ivf should only be used by married couples who after years of trying to have kids -couldn't. Maybe because the husband was born infertile or has some complication. Spiritually, only under those circumstances should it be used. Because then the new children or child will possess a mother and father to care for him/her/them.

The other part of this Spiritual advice that I've learned is that of adoption. Which too should only be done by a married couple if the wife has some borne complication and cannot produce children. But this method of adoption can also be done if the husband has the complication, and the idea of a 'sperm donor' (ivf) outside of the family doesn't sit well.

This is the way I've come to know of their uses in a Spiritual sense.
 
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  #4  
Old 02-08-2009, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by krahmaan View Post
I'm not too sure about these cases of ivf. But from what I know about the subject, ivf should only be used by married couples who after years of trying to have kids -couldn't. Maybe because the husband was born infertile or has some complication. Spiritually, only under those circumstances should it be used. Because then the new children or child will possess a mother and father to care for him/her/them.

The other part of this Spiritual advice that I've learned is that of adoption. Which too should only be done by a married couple if the wife has some borne complication and cannot produce children. But this method of adoption can also be done if the husband has the complication, and the idea of a 'sperm donor' (ivf) outside of the family doesn't sit well.

This is the way I've come to know of their uses in a Spiritual sense.
Curious. Is this the moral code that you live by, or is it a moral code you would like to force on others?
 
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  #5  
Old 02-08-2009, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
I found this whole thing to be highly hypocritical. Here we have so-called supporters of "reproductive freedom" saying she had a moral obligation to abort the kids. (Google search Abortion is cool, overpopulation isn't)

Ethics? I think the really pertinent ethics question is when will society quit judging others?
What do you think of her inevitable welfare claims for all those mouths?
What do you think of the more than likely socially maladjusted kid or two that is almost guaranteed to come out of a family of 14?
You can't deal with each of these issues in isolation of each other. They're part of a greater whole. Not to mention part of the whole being-a-responsible-parent is ensuring that you can give each kid the attention it needs, along with the physical resources required to raise it .
 
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  #6  
Old 02-09-2009, 12:15 AM
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Breast feeding off a 60 year old, I don't know about Ethics but that's just not right.

On a more serious note (and sorry if the above comment offended anyone, it made me laugh at least), I believe that giving birth, giving life, regardless of how old you are is a beautiful thing. I also think there's so many different angles to a situation such as this that one can't really add their own opinion without sounding a little biased.

It only becomes an issue (in my opinion, and itís not really an issue either) when you bring a life into this world that's already at a disadvantage. I mean living right now is not a walk in the park, it never has been really, and to give birth at 60, to some may seem as a selfish act. To me, it does to some degree but I'm not about to light a torch and grab a pitch fork in protest because it doesnít bother me that much.

Then I ask myself; Why didnít this mother for example consider adoption? This is my only real solid argument if I can even call it that. But I don't even want to argue, because when you do the research you find that plenty of women are giving birth to children everyday in their 50's and frankly even at 60 one can expect years of healthy living if one of course takes good care of themselves, raising a child in a loving environment for 20years, bringing another life into this world, how can that be considered a bad thing? How can it be wrong or unethical? There's a father involved, a family, the kid's not going to be thrown out on the street if the mothers health at an advanced age does not hold up you know? Some mothers die giving birth, child survives, no one calls that unethical do they?

I don't think it's a matter of age here at all, i think those that do argue about it being so have not done their homework or wish to see things from their own little dark lonely corner, I'd rather not even consider them as a factor in this equation at all as they're more than likely to be closed minded people.

I think it's all about fertility treatments being allowed, you see as a Scientologist, even though fertility drugs used in these instances are not banned, theyíre never something one turns to even as a last resort because altering the natural state of the mind or body is just not something I can easily accept. There are healthier ways, treatments, natural practices that have proven to be effective. But thatís veering out of the scope of the topic.

Parenting is a blessing as is raising a child, adopting a kid and raising them is equally as fulfilling in my opinion and a blessing of its own. I probably have not given a solid conclusion to my argument, wait, what argument? I guess the above was simply my opinion on the matter and nothing more.
 
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  #7  
Old 02-09-2009, 12:57 AM
yollyP yollyP is offline
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afraid

I dreamed of having my own twins or quintuplets or anything of this kind, but in a natural way. I'm afraid of this "unnatural" scheme. Just a mere pricking of injection makes me shiver, what more of this process? eweewwww
 
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  #8  
Old 02-09-2009, 01:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harveyj View Post
What do you think of her inevitable welfare claims for all those mouths?
Inevitable? Playing loosely with that word. And if she does choose to apply for welfare, that would not give the collective of society the right to impinge upon her freedom.

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Originally Posted by Harveyj View Post
What do you think of the more than likely socially maladjusted kid or two that is almost guaranteed to come out of a family of 14?
LOL. I have a friend who had 14 brothers and sisters (15 siblings total) and she was happy and better adjusted than most people I know. You fabricate that, or have some source to back up your claim that bigger families lead to maladjustment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harveyj View Post
Not to mention part of the whole being-a-responsible-parent is ensuring that you can give each kid the attention it needs, along with the physical resources required to raise it .
Like the pro-abortionists like to say, "don't like abortion, then don't have one".

Don't like 14 kids? Then don't have 14 kids. It is no more your business than it is whether I breathe through my nose or mouth.
 
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  #9  
Old 02-09-2009, 01:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicgeek View Post
Have a quick read on the following two recent items of news:

Ethical concerns raised as woman, 60, gives birth to twins


Mother of octuplets had all her 14 children by IVF


There is no doubt that, to these women, their children are blessings. But what is your opinion about the possible ethical implications involving finances, health, age, and support that these articles highlight?
One may say doctors are playing God, but then you can say the same thing about all sorts of medical procedures in general.
 
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  #10  
Old 02-09-2009, 03:56 PM
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I'm sorry, I read this yesterday and did not get it, read it again today and I still don't get what you're trying to say? I'm sure if I come back tomorrow and read it again i'll still be at a loss, so I'll just ask.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sitetutor View Post
One may say doctors are playing God, but then you can say the same thing about all sorts of medical procedures in general.
What does that mean? I mean if you're talking about doctors & fertility treatments then you have been misinformed or running around with a pitch fork. Life, is not an act of God, not in the way you seem to be phrasing it. If a woman gives birth, that's called, giving birth, not an act of God. Doctors aiding this process (even though I personally don't agree with it full heartedly) is not an act of God, it's science.


Last edited by moni; 02-09-2009 at 04:00 PM.
 
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  #11  
Old 02-09-2009, 05:38 PM
krahmaan krahmaan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
Curious. Is this the moral code that you live by, or is it a moral code you would like to force on others?
It is advice (Spiritual) that I am coming to know by study as I relate it only as advice on this subject of IVF. Yes, spiritual or moral code as you call it IS to be lived. That's the only way it can truly be known -not just by book study.

The teachings of Spirituality are never intended on being forced on anyone. At least especially by a true practitioner. So furthermore, it can only be given as advice. The type of advice that I myself has personally come to know threw experience, and agree to as virtue (a virtue). Others can take the advice or leave it. That really matters not to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krahmaan View Post
The other part of this Spiritual advice that I've learned is that of adoption. Which too should only be done by a married couple if the wife has some borne complication and cannot produce children.
See how the word ADVICE comes up?

I hope this satisfies your curiosity on my Spiritual or 'moral code' as you call it.

Last edited by krahmaan; 02-09-2009 at 05:45 PM. Reason: needing to clarify with another quote and a better word
 
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  #12  
Old 02-10-2009, 11:02 PM
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John, I didn't say every kid in the brood would be maladjusted. I said in all likelihood one will be. Ask your friend if they have a sibling that's a right bastard or emotionally messed up in someway. I'll bet you one of those big cans of Sapporo they've got one.

And yes, I am playing loose with the words, but common sense dictates that no one other than the uberwealthy have the resources to take care of 14 kids without outside assistance. Even a household income of $1,000,000p.a. would feel some strain from that many people. Food alone would most likely reach the $150 a day mark, and that's if you're eating cheaply.
Finally, I wasn't asking for a comment on their ability or who's business it was... I was asking how you'd, John Scott, would feel when someone applies to welfare with 14 kids, and becoming a tax burden.
 
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  #13  
Old 02-11-2009, 02:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Harveyj View Post
John, I didn't say every kid in the brood would be maladjusted. I said in all likelihood one will be.
On the basis of what? Odds? I would say the odds of a child being maladjusted are similar whether you are an only child or one-of-20.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harveyj View Post
Ask your friend if they have a sibling that's a right bastard or emotionally messed up in someway. I'll bet you one of those big cans of Sapporo they've got one.
That family is not the one you want to be discussing. They are all highly successful kids, all university grads working in professional jobs and very, very much attached to each other. I, on the other hand, had two sisters, one brother, two step brothers, one half brother and one half sister, and I have hardly any contact with them, but am well adjusted. I had one brother who wasn't well adjusted (suicide), but his emotional problems were not due to the number of siblings.
Quote:
common sense dictates that no one other than the uberwealthy have the resources to take care of 14 kids without outside assistance
What's uberwealthy? My father wasn't uberwealthy and he fed us just fine, and had money left over to buy a large house, clothes, cars, two Cessnas and even nice vacations, and even give to charity.

I think the woman in this case may have hardships if she tries to go it alone, from what I've read. I can't be sure because I don't have access to her finances. But then, I don't think anybody has a moral obligation to go it alone. If a family is in need, I believe there is nothing wrong with asking for assistance from the any number of the thousands of organizations set up to assist families in need.

Quote:
I was asking how you'd, John Scott, would feel when someone applies to welfare with 14 kids, and becoming a tax burden.
I would not feel anything untoward in regard to the woman in question. I would, however, believe that the government was violating the rights of those people it enslaves in order to coercibly fund such programs.
 
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  #14  
Old 02-12-2009, 06:37 PM
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Quick update: She already is a tax burden, and claiming welfare for the 6 she already had.

John: Your family had enough money for two private planes, and you don't consider that wealthy?!?

Ok, wait, perspective: I'm on just shy of $100k and I consider myself extremely well off.
Then again, this could be because I've been on the other end where I've had to couch surf and live on $0.28 cup noodles for weeks at a time.
 
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  #15  
Old 02-12-2009, 08:57 PM
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OOps sorry, When I became the donor I just though she was ....... fill in the blank
 
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  #16  
Old 02-13-2009, 12:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harveyj View Post
Quick update: She already is a tax burden, and claiming welfare for the 6 she already had.

John: Your family had enough money for two private planes, and you don't consider that wealthy?!?
No, just middle class income.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Harveyj View Post
Then again, this could be because I've been on the other end where I've had to couch surf and live on $0.28 cup noodles for weeks at a time.
I've been homeless on three occasions. I've made as much as $50,000 a month. What's that called? Class mobility? It's real, and almost anybody who wants to make the changes can.
 
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  #17  
Old 02-17-2009, 07:42 PM
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I don't see any ethical issues with either case.

What I do see is efforts of population control. ala Pelosi.
 
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  #18  
Old 02-20-2009, 05:25 AM
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I was writing an article last week about abortion and I found out it and found proofs that it is just right that it is legal here
 
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Old 02-20-2009, 05:47 AM
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I was writing an article last week about abortion and I found out it and found proofs that it is just right that it is legal here
When somebody refers to theoretical defenses of an act as "proofs", I'm almost scared to ask. But ask I will. What were the "proofs"?
 
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Old 02-23-2009, 08:27 PM
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i think as long as you can provide their needs, there's no problem as to having a lot of children
 
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