Webmaster Forum

Go Back   Webmaster Forum > The Webmaster Forums > Forum Lobby > Controversial Social Issues

Controversial Social Issues Discussions concerning controversial social issues. Topics include politics, religion, culture, social and economic issues, etc. Respect required at all times.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Share |
  #21  
Old 02-20-2009, 11:20 AM
~kev~'s Avatar
~kev~ ~kev~ is offline
v7n Mentor
 
Join Date: 02-06-08
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,544
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Quote:
Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm View Post

But who said I would harm those that I love in any way?
Who said you would harm the ones you love? I said it.

I have seen the long reaching effects of suicide. And you have no right to inflict that kind of harm upon others.
 
Reply With Quote

Advertisement

Advertisement

  #22  
Old 02-20-2009, 12:33 PM
John Scott's Avatar
John Scott John Scott is offline
Individualist
 
Join Date: 09-27-03
Location: Wherever I want.
Posts: 28,046
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Quote:
Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm View Post
I agree for the most part. But governments must also be compassionate, IMO. There is no logical reason to spend money on the care of the terminally ill, but for compassionate reasons, government funded hospices exist in the UK. I can't fault that.
There is a logical reason for people to spend money on the terminally ill, and that is hope. Hope that by some sudden discovery, people will find a cure. But you made a mistake when you said that governments should spent that money. No, not governments. Governments are entirely in the wrong when they take money by force and give it to others who haven't earned it. That is for people to do by themselves. If government would get out of the health care business and let citizen unions take over, everybody would get better health care and nobody would end up being unjustly persecuted by the government.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm View Post
Either your statement is in error or I'm not a 'modern' liberal. I coerce no one and object to those that do. Though my government rules in my name admittedly.
In a democracy, those who support modern liberal legislation are responsible for it being passed. So, yeah, I would think that you are complicit in coercion of people to fund your liberal wealth redistribution; not to mention all the other collectivist morality legislation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm View Post
If it has had power over any large population, I bet it has ruined lives, as all political systems do! Catering to the majority always leaves the minority in the lurch. And nobody can please everybody. In fact I would go so far as to say no one can even please themselves for ever, not in a global society of 6 billion people.
The individualist government doesn't suppose itself to be nanny. It doesn't aim to please. It aims to ensure freedom so people can pursue their dreams on their own. It doesn't serve majorities. It doesn't serve minorities. That is your collectivism speaking. It serves individuals.




Quote:
Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm View Post
Agreed, consent is good. But how do you stop the thief? And what about reality? What if a decision has to be made?
First, I didn't say consent is good. I would say it is necessary. Without consent, you're a criminal. And saying, "we'll, I'm the government", doesn't change that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm View Post
What a lovely doughnut, but we don't consent to share. Cricket divides it for us without our consent. Is that really so bad?
Yes, it is really so bad. Amazed that you don't come to that conclusion on your own. You do understand that what you just said was a defense of every bloody-stained regime in history of mankind?

If people want the doughnut, they can bake their own. They can trade products or services for the doughnut. They earn money and buy a doughnut. If they really, really need the doughnut to be happy, they can appeal for charity to buy the doughnut. Charitable giving in the US, at $260.28 billion, is more than enough to buy everybody in the world a doughnut or two.


Quote:
Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm View Post
So who should decide the laws we live by? Are you proposing anarchy?
I heard a kid say the same thing a couple weeks ago when I quoted Thomas Jefferson saying, A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.

The founding fathers thought that constitutional protections for the individual would survive. They didn't.

I would recommend constitutional amendments which guarantee individual freedom.
 
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 02-20-2009, 12:36 PM
pgzn pgzn is offline
Contributing Member
 
Join Date: 05-27-08
Location: Ohio
Posts: 246
iTrader: 0 / 0%
A side note - I wouldn't go through life thinking there wont be a cure for it.

They recently fell ass backwards into a what appears to be a cure:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...HA_en&aq=f&oq=

Although, you better hope socialists don't get their grubby little hands on the health industry. Cures to anything will become few and far between when they remove capitalism and make doctors, surgeons, and drug companies mere civil servants. Advances in medicine will come to a complete halt, forever. Just look to Cuba if you want to see what complete halt in progress looks like.

Last edited by pgzn; 02-20-2009 at 12:47 PM.
 
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 02-20-2009, 12:43 PM
Ashley27's Avatar
Ashley27 Ashley27 is offline
Contributing Member
 
Join Date: 09-09-08
Location: Canada
Posts: 504
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Well there are some people choose to die the way they want it to be BUT of course for me its a no no. I believe that God has a plan for everyone..Oh I remember my auntie now..She died in brain tumor last week of January 2009. She suffered a lot of pain.
 
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 02-20-2009, 12:54 PM
John Scott's Avatar
John Scott John Scott is offline
Individualist
 
Join Date: 09-27-03
Location: Wherever I want.
Posts: 28,046
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgzn View Post

Although, you better hope socialists don't get their grubby little hands on the health industry. Cures to anything will become few and far between when they remove capitalism and make doctors, surgeons, and drug companies mere civil servants. Advances in medicine will come to a complete halt, forever. Just look to Cuba if you want to see what complete halt in progress looks like.
Indeed. Japan has socialized health care and people wait a month for urgent tests to done, and then weeks for the results. Horrible. People who can afford it go to America for top notch medicine.
 
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 02-20-2009, 03:40 PM
G10's Avatar
G10 G10 is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: 05-10-04
Location: UK - Cheshire
Posts: 11,765
iTrader: 5 / 100%
This is a very controversial subject and one can see both the advantages and disadvantages of allowing someone to die.

I personally disagree with it as I feel it could open the door to all sorts of issues (as if there aren't enough within the medical system already) to run riot.

The thing is that my opinion is only based on my current state of health and maybe if I had an illness that rendered me in agony on a daily basis and it was only going to get worse, then maybe my opinion would change.

My heart goes out to those people that suffer and so much so that they would rather die than keep feeling the pain that they are in and until (God forbid) I am in such a situation, I will always disagree with this and my opinion will always be biased.
 
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 02-20-2009, 05:12 PM
ScriptMan's Avatar
ScriptMan ScriptMan is online now
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: 02-10-07
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 13,559
iTrader: 4 / 100%
I guess I really need to learn how this multi-quote thing works. My apologies for this attempt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G10 View Post
I personally disagree with it as I feel it could open the door to all sorts of issues (as if there aren't enough within the medical system already) to run riot.
My personal opinion is that you ahve the right to do anything with your personal life that you want to. Your choice is between you and your God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G10 View Post
My heart goes out to those people that suffer and so much so that they would rather die than keep feeling the pain that they are in and until (God forbid) I am in such a situation, I will always disagree with this and my opinion will always be biased.
By the same rights, you have no right to tell or force your beliefs on other people. It is their right to choose. Not yours and most certainly not the governments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strong
I have diabetes. It is an insidious illness and at present incurable. The future I have to look forward to is not pleasant. .
First off, Sorry. And I am fairly sure that you already know that the better you control it the better you will fair.

Whatever you choose or whatever the the cards you were dealt, I support your right to choose.
 
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 02-20-2009, 05:27 PM
G10's Avatar
G10 G10 is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: 05-10-04
Location: UK - Cheshire
Posts: 11,765
iTrader: 5 / 100%
^ I respect your personal opinion just like I am sure you respect mine...Though that said, if you believe in God then no, you don't have the right to choose as any sort of suicide goes against Godly beliefs.

Secondly, I do not see where I have told or forced my beliefs on anyone as you have said or have I misunderstood something here?
 
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 02-20-2009, 05:47 PM
Cricket's Avatar
Cricket Cricket is offline
No Longer Active
 
Join Date: 10-13-03
Location: Texas
Posts: 42,181
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Just my personal opinion, there is no more selfish act than that of suicide.
 
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 02-20-2009, 06:29 PM
ScriptMan's Avatar
ScriptMan ScriptMan is online now
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: 02-10-07
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 13,559
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Quote:
Originally Posted by G10 View Post
^ I respect your personal opinion just like I am sure you respect mine...Though that said, if you believe in God then no, you don't have the right to choose as any sort of suicide goes against Godly beliefs.
Not really sure to whom your comments were directed. Assuming it was me as the last poster before your reply.

My personal beliefs at the current time are the same as yours. I believe it it Gods choice alone to determine when life ends. Now put me in enough pain and I can not tell you what my beliefs will be. I have not walked in those shoes. I will not presume the burden of judging some one who has. I pray that I will never confront the choice.


Quote:
Secondly, I do not see where I have told or forced my beliefs on anyone as you have said or have I misunderstood something here?
To the best of my knowledge, in any topic that I have read, you never have. You say what you believe and that is all you say. If I seemed to say otherwsie as you read it, please understand that is not what I meant.
 
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 02-21-2009, 04:56 AM
krahmaan krahmaan is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: 08-24-07
Location: LA County, California
Posts: 1,987
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Quote:
Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm View Post
What a lovely doughnut, but we don't consent to share. Cricket divides it for us without our consent. Is that really so bad?
This is a very good argument Strongy, IMO. But now I would be jealous because I didn't get a piece of that doughnut!

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
You'll be a lucky person if you can time it just right. You'd be surprised how many people terminally ill people are in restrained environments at hospitals because they are deemed to be a threat to themselves.
I must digress, John doth have a good point here. Even though I feel that it would be a great mistake to purposely end one's life -for Spiritual reasons. I must add that even if you were able to sneak away somehow and attempt this act, what if you didn't die?

Then like John said, everyone else will see you as a danger to yourself. & then you would have given up your 'freedom to individuality' unto the laws that govern.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_Act_1961

Who really wants to speed-up death anyway? I've heard philosophies according to the Sikh scripture that at the time of death one experiences the pain of thousands of needles. I tried to find an article on this but I could not.

My search led me here, to a story of how those only who have attained the level of a Sat Guru (True Teacher) experience death. But only those who've attained this high level of Spirituality -mind you. This is a story of the martyrdom of Guru Arjan Dev. The fifth of the Ten Sikh Gurus. What a wondrous story! (IMO)
 
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 02-21-2009, 06:21 AM
StrongInTheArm's Avatar
StrongInTheArm StrongInTheArm is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 04-24-07
Posts: 9,310
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgzn View Post
A side note - I wouldn't go through life thinking there wont be a cure for it.

They recently fell ass backwards into a what appears to be a cure:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...HA_en&aq=f&oq=

Although, you better hope socialists don't get their grubby little hands on the health industry. Cures to anything will become few and far between when they remove capitalism and make doctors, surgeons, and drug companies mere civil servants. Advances in medicine will come to a complete halt, forever. Just look to Cuba if you want to see what complete halt in progress looks like.
http://www.bcbs.com/news/wellness/st...etes-cure.html
Quote:
Among those who lost at least 10% of their body weight -- a number that included only one of those on the medically supervised diet -- 87% were able to stop taking all diabetes medications within a year. Among those on the diet who did not lose that much, only 12% were able to stop taking medications, and all of them had very mild cases of diabetes to begin with.
That was a quote from the first article in your list. Interesting, but I think they are confusing cure and treatment. Diabetes is when your body's ability to manufacture or make use of insulin is impaired in some way. Losing weight doesn't stop you from being diabetic, thus it is not a cure. It helps, but it is also a degenerative illness, meaning it will continue to get worst over time.

I have a couple of relatives, skinny a rakes, both were diagnosed diabetic in mid life. One is no longer able to drive since he lost his vision in one eye.

BTW much of Europe is socialist, certainly by American standards, and you would be surprised how much medical science is done over here
 
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 02-21-2009, 06:36 AM
StrongInTheArm's Avatar
StrongInTheArm StrongInTheArm is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 04-24-07
Posts: 9,310
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~kev~ View Post
Who said you would harm the ones you love? I said it.

I have seen the long reaching effects of suicide. And you have no right to inflict that kind of harm upon others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cricket View Post
Just my personal opinion, there is no more selfish act than that of suicide.
Forgive me for addressing both your points together, but it seems appropriate.

It is my life, no one has a right to command me to live beyond the point I choose. (Kev I suspect that the experience of your family has tainted your view, you seem only capable of seeing suicide from one perspective).

The reasons why a person commits suicide are varied and unique for each individual. There is a large category who can only be described as ill, whether through depression or grief or some other mental illness. For those people suicide is as much a call for help as it is a way of ending their pain. For them it is not a choice but a function of their illness. Throwing yourself under a train, or slashing your wrists or hanging yourself is not the act of rational minds. This category of people need help, understanding and perhaps a little pity.

Then there are those who are of sound mind who make a conscientious decision to end their lives without coercion. Are they selfish or do they wilfully set out to harm those closest to them? Perhaps, I don't know and I suspect the reason why dies with them. I can't look into each of their minds and hearts and say if they were selfish or selfless. Can you?

I can speak for myself though. My 'suicide' would be in part selfish but in part not. I might be in pain, have alzheimers or some other degenerative mental disease, I may in fact be a drooling vegetable that bears no resemblance to who I am now. Who are you to say I should be forced to live like this? And who are you to say that I should force my loved ones to care for me at that time, physically, financially and emotionally? It is not your life! It is mine! I accept responsibility for my life and for my death. That isn't selfishness or cowardice, that is courage, that is perhaps even selfless.
 
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 02-21-2009, 07:19 AM
Cricket's Avatar
Cricket Cricket is offline
No Longer Active
 
Join Date: 10-13-03
Location: Texas
Posts: 42,181
iTrader: 0 / 0%
As I mentioned, my comment was my personal opinion.
 
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 02-21-2009, 07:25 AM
StrongInTheArm's Avatar
StrongInTheArm StrongInTheArm is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 04-24-07
Posts: 9,310
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Isn't everything we say the same?
 
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 02-21-2009, 09:00 AM
pgzn pgzn is offline
Contributing Member
 
Join Date: 05-27-08
Location: Ohio
Posts: 246
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Quote:
Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm View Post
http://www.bcbs.com/news/wellness/st...etes-cure.html


That was a quote from the first article in your list. Interesting, but I think they are confusing cure and treatment. Diabetes is when your body's ability to manufacture or make use of insulin is impaired in some way. Losing weight doesn't stop you from being diabetic, thus it is not a cure. It helps, but it is also a degenerative illness, meaning it will continue to get worst over time.

I have a couple of relatives, skinny a rakes, both were diagnosed diabetic in mid life. One is no longer able to drive since he lost his vision in one eye.

BTW much of Europe is socialist, certainly by American standards, and you would be surprised how much medical science is done over here
The point of the articles was, the patients were cured withing days. Still fat, but cured. They accidentally discovered that form of diabetes can be cured through surgery. It's quite a breakthrough.

Stomach surgery, meant to help people who are severely obese lose weight, may cure the most common form of diabetes.

Quote:
According to research conducted by an international team of scientists, doctors who performed the operation on obese diabetics noticed that in 98% of cases the condition disappeared a few weeks after surgery, which they said is too soon to be accounted for by weight loss.

http://www.dancewithshadows.com/busi...ch-surgery.asp
I wouldn't go through life thinking it is incurable. These people were cured. But if you want to, that's OK too. I'm just saying, it's only a matter of time before they figure out what that surgery did that ALSO cured diabetes within days of the surgery. Then they can just perform that on non-obese patients. It could end up that most diabates is cured by a visit to the doctor, a scope, and a snip of something in the intestines.

Last edited by pgzn; 02-21-2009 at 09:08 AM.
 
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 02-22-2009, 11:44 AM
StrongInTheArm's Avatar
StrongInTheArm StrongInTheArm is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 04-24-07
Posts: 9,310
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Quote:
Originally Posted by krahmaan View Post
...
I must digress, John doth have a good point here. Even though I feel that it would be a great mistake to purposely end one's life -for Spiritual reasons. I must add that even if you were able to sneak away somehow and attempt this act, what if you didn't die?

Then like John said, everyone else will see you as a danger to yourself. & then you would have given up your 'freedom to individuality' unto the laws that govern.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_Act_1961

Who really wants to speed-up death anyway? I've heard philosophies according to the Sikh scripture that at the time of death one experiences the pain of thousands of needles. I tried to find an article on this but I could not....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia#Buddhism

Quote:
The Dalai Lama was cited by the Agence-France Presse in a 18 September 1996 article entitled "Dalai Lama Backs Euthanasia in Exceptional Circumstances" regarding his position on legal euthanasia:

Asked his view on euthanasia, the Dalai Lama said Buddhists believed every life was precious and none more so than human life, adding: 'I think it's better to avoid it.'

'But at the same time I think with abortion, (which) Buddhism considers an act of killing ... the Buddhist way is to judge the right and wrong or the pros and cons.'

He cited the case of a person in a coma with no possibility of recovery or a woman whose pregnancy threatened her life or that of the child or both where the harm caused by not taking action might be greater.

"These are, I think from the Buddhist viewpoint, exceptional cases," he said. "So it's best to be judged on a case by case basis."
 
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 02-22-2009, 04:51 PM
krahmaan krahmaan is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: 08-24-07
Location: LA County, California
Posts: 1,987
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Quote:
Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia#Buddhism

Quote:
The Dalai Lama was cited by the Agence-France Presse in a 18 September 1996 article entitled "Dalai Lama Backs Euthanasia in Exceptional Circumstances" regarding his position on legal euthanasia:

Asked his view on euthanasia, the Dalai Lama said Buddhists believed every life was precious and none more so than human life, adding: 'I think it's better to avoid it.'

'But at the same time I think with abortion, (which) Buddhism considers an act of killing ... the Buddhist way is to judge the right and wrong or the pros and cons.'

He cited the case of a person in a coma with no possibility of recovery or a woman whose pregnancy threatened her life or that of the child or both where the harm caused by not taking action might be greater.

"These are, I think from the Buddhist viewpoint, exceptional cases," he said. "So it's best to be judged on a case by case basis."
This is a good source. But although he did say that it could be used on a 'case by case' basis, he also stated that he personally leaned more against it as he said..

Quote:
'I think it's better to avoid it.'
Saintly ones often do this, in high regards for others. They will bend to comfort them. At times they do this in sympathy. But their personal views of what they think is best are always stated not to slip into hypocrisy. So I think that in this general advice he was only giving it sympathetically. Because a real Buddhist will even try to not harm the most smallest of creatures like roaches, ants, spiders, etc.

Life is full of suffering, you know this as good as anyone else. But it is only just one more fact of this precious life in which we live. I believe that the 'Higher Power' will never place more of a burden upon us that we cannot endure -even if it doesn't feel like it at the time.

You know you are Strong, or you wouldn't have chosen you title here.
 
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 02-23-2009, 06:27 AM
StrongInTheArm's Avatar
StrongInTheArm StrongInTheArm is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 04-24-07
Posts: 9,310
iTrader: 0 / 0%
krahmaan: I gave you his words, you read his mind and told me his intention. :smiley banging his head against the wall:
 
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 02-23-2009, 08:21 PM
krahmaan krahmaan is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: 08-24-07
Location: LA County, California
Posts: 1,987
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm View Post
krahmaan: I gave you his words, you read his mind and told me his intention. :smiley banging his head against the wall:
I think you've misunderstood my post. So let's examine what the Dali Lama said. Here the original Dali Lama quote:

Quote:
The Dalai Lama was cited by the Agence-France Presse in a 18 September 1996 article entitled "Dalai Lama Backs Euthanasia in Exceptional Circumstances" regarding his position on legal euthanasia:

Asked his view on euthanasia, the Dalai Lama said Buddhists believed every life was precious and none more so than human life, adding: 'I think it's better to avoid it.'

'But at the same time I think with abortion, (which) Buddhism considers an act of killing ... the Buddhist way is to judge the right and wrong or the pros and cons.'

He cited the case of a person in a coma with no possibility of recovery or a woman whose pregnancy threatened her life or that of the child or both where the harm caused by not taking action might be greater.

"These are, I think from the Buddhist viewpoint, exceptional cases," he said. "So it's best to be judged on a case by case basis."
If you note here he initially states:

Quote:
Asked his view on euthanasia, the Dalai Lama said Buddhists believed every life was precious and none more so than human life, adding: 'I think it's better to avoid it.'
See, he actually states his personal opinion on euthanasia.

Then here..

Quote:
He cited the case of a person in a coma with no possibility of recovery or a woman whose pregnancy threatened her life or that of the child or both where the harm caused by not taking action might be greater.

"These are, I think from the Buddhist viewpoint, exceptional cases," he said. "So it's best to be judged on a case by case basis."
Where he's stating from a more general Buddhist viewpoint, being impersonal that euthanasia could be judged on a case by case basis. But this is a general Buddhist viewpoint, relating to most Buddhists and not necessarily to his own personal view. His personal view was clearly stated earlier:

Quote:
'I think it's better to avoid it.'
So now we have two views, all we need now is to figure out which one is the strongest view. He says, "So it's best to be judged on a case by case basis." But he initially said, 'I think it's better to avoid it.' To me, the stronger of the two viewpoints would be his own and not a general one. Being that he was asked for 'his' personal opinion on the subject.

I hope this makes sense. Because his statements lean more towards avoiding euthanasia. Hence, also things like suicide. I didn't read his mind. Of course, I study a lot on Spirituality but this only required reason to figure. So you can stop banging your head against the wall now, & quit torturing yourself.
 
Reply With Quote
Go Back   Webmaster Forum > The Webmaster Forums > Forum Lobby > Controversial Social Issues

Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
SEO or SEM..which one to choose? aloknath SEO Forum 25 05-01-2009 08:08 PM
who to choose? superboysahil Forum Lobby 23 04-25-2008 04:54 PM
If you were to choose... t.analiza011885 Forum Lobby 89 12-08-2007 04:00 PM
Which one would you choose Antonio Domain Name Forum 9 04-07-2006 06:35 AM
Please help me choose a name alexmos Marketing Forum 2 04-03-2006 03:03 PM


V7N Network
Get exposure! V7N I Love Photography V7N SEO Blog V7N Directory


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:51 AM.
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.
Copyright © 2003 - 2018 VIX-WomensForum LLC