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  #1  
Old 02-19-2009, 08:51 AM
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Why should I not be able to choose to die!

Is it not time for us to come to terms with those who wish to die having the right to choose when, where and how it happens?

I have diabetes. It is an insidious illness and at present incurable. The future I have to look forward to is not pleasant. I will lose sensation in my extremities. I will most likely become impotent. I will slur my words and lose the ability to vocalise properly. I will most likely lose my hearing and become partially if not fully blind by my late sixties. But that is as nothing compared to the thought that I will become a burden both financially and emotionally to those I love.

There is a point at which life for me would become intolerable. Yet it would be a crime for someone to aid me in bringing my life to an end peacefully and without pain at my behest and at a time of my choosing. Why should that be?
 
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Old 02-19-2009, 01:59 PM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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Life sucks sometimes, but you must keep your moral whatever happen.

Here is a link I watch when my moral is down, this man inspired me all the time and put me back on track.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnlhZ...eature=related

I wish your loves one are very close to you whatever happen you are not alone

Last edited by Franc Tireur; 02-19-2009 at 02:25 PM.
 
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  #3  
Old 02-19-2009, 02:04 PM
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nobody is going to stop anyone from committing suicide. It's basically not possible, although we can encourge them not to.

However to ask a Dr. to do it is contradictive to the oath they entered into. "to do no harm".


And if you think you will live a short life, it gives you all the more reason to fill the days you have. My family has a history of alzheimers. I am doing what I can now while I still... what was I talking about?
 
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Old 02-20-2009, 12:35 AM
martyan martyan is offline
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I think in your case and in cases of people who are impossible to get cured, the euthanasia is the way out - surely if they want it. But not suicide. Since you are able to think, and until you are able to think - you have to live. Why? Maybe that will sound strange, but suicide is like abortion of soul, which is forming from the information we gather throughout our life. The gathering of info is the meaning of our life, and when we die, the new cycle begins, if you kill yourself, this life cycle is broken. How do you think, why is the suicide is a the only sin which 'christian god' does not forgive?

Other cultures do not accept suicide as well... Please, do accept this as an allegory, I do not know what or who or even is there any power to trule our world, But i know exactly that the soul exist, and it is pretty much separated from the body, so committing suicide, is the same as killing a newborn life. You have to think not of your body, but of the soul (soul and you - are different beings) - which will not continue useful existance...

But, the time should come, when you are unable to process information you get from the outer world, then I believe euthanasia is possible

Hope you see my point, and I do not exclude being mistaken and in that case you can do with yourself what you want, but what if I am not mistaken?
 
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Old 02-20-2009, 04:54 AM
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Thank you all for your suggestions and thoughts!

Have a read of this article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7898816.stm
Quote:
She added that if she could not be "100% certain" that her husband would not be prosecuted, she would go to Switzerland "earlier than I would otherwise want to".

"I'm not prepared for him to face the British justice system without me.

"That would be a nightmare, and far more painful than facing dying early."

Travel aid

Ms Purdy has always said she would still consider travelling to Switzerland to take a lethal dose of barbiturates prescribed by Dignitas doctors.

She wants her husband at her side, but has wanted to know if he could face prosecution on his return to Britain for helping her by buying train tickets, or by accompanying her abroad.
It basically says that if any of my relatives helped me in any way they might be prosecuted for doing so. Thus I must kill myself without any assistance and preferably without any loved ones present, to ensure they were not prosecuted subsequently.

What if I were incapacitated and could not do the deed myself. It means I would be forced to live in a possible vegetative state, a burden to those around me, quite possibly in pain and have no way out. It means the state is effectively forcing me to live against my wish.

It is in my mind tantamount to state sponsored torture, is it not?
 
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  #6  
Old 02-20-2009, 05:17 AM
Bretti Bretti is offline
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Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm View Post
Is it not time for us to come to terms with those who wish to die having the right to choose when, where and how it happens?

I have diabetes. It is an insidious illness and at present incurable. The future I have to look forward to is not pleasant. I will lose sensation in my extremities. I will most likely become impotent. I will slur my words and lose the ability to vocalise properly. I will most likely lose my hearing and become partially if not fully blind by my late sixties. But that is as nothing compared to the thought that I will become a burden both financially and emotionally to those I love.

There is a point at which life for me would become intolerable. Yet it would be a crime for someone to aid me in bringing my life to an end peacefully and without pain at my behest and at a time of my choosing. Why should that be?
my grandmother is diabetec and we have been taking good care of her for 5 years before she died..i understand how you feel but you should not think of yourself being a burden..i know every individual is so much different but for us who witnessed my granny's life, it is an honor to take care of her..everybody agreed on mercy killing but we choose to take good care of her
 
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  #7  
Old 02-20-2009, 05:51 AM
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I must say, it's somewhat hypocritical for a collectivist to support collectivism when it means redistributing wealth, and then decry it when it means the collective morality is forced down his throat. Maybe if you had supported individual freedom from the beginning, you would not have to worry about your right to suicide being impinged upon?
 
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  #8  
Old 02-20-2009, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
I must say, it's somewhat hypocritical for a collectivist to support collectivism when it means redistributing wealth, and then decry it when it means the collective morality is forced down his throat. Maybe if you had supported individual freedom from the beginning, you would not have to worry about your right to suicide being impinged upon?
John is recruiting you SITA.

Anyway, you can always choose to die young painlessly SITA. If you still have the strength to join the army in Iran, Israel or in Iraq, and if you choose your stand about their war, you'll sure die with honor for yourself and for what you believe in.

You can also use your remaining years of strength through spreading your faith in God or anything you believe about. Through charity works especially at the WAR ZONE.

It might sound crazy but that's the only thing I can think of to suggest for you.
 
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  #9  
Old 02-20-2009, 06:38 AM
krahmaan krahmaan is offline
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Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm View Post
It basically says that if any of my relatives helped me in any way they might be prosecuted for doing so. Thus I must kill myself without any assistance and preferably without any loved ones present, to ensure they were not prosecuted subsequently.

What if I were incapacitated and could not do the deed myself. It means I would be forced to live in a possible vegetative state, a burden to those around me, quite possibly in pain and have no way out. It means the state is effectively forcing me to live against my wish.
If I only had a few years to live because I was dying of a terminal illness, I would try and make those last years the best years I possibly could. Who knows what breakthroughs science may astound the world with in a few years? I can not read the future, nor would I claim to have that ability. So who would claim to know this? I don't see the logic in seeing my future as utterly doomed.

There are sometimes up sides to situations as well -which are often hard to see in a bad predicament. But of course, I believe that they are still there. My father once told me:

Quote:
You've gotta think positive.
 
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  #10  
Old 02-20-2009, 07:46 AM
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If I only had a few years to live because I was dying of a terminal illness, I would try and make those last years the best years I possibly could. Who knows what breakthroughs science may astound the world with in a few years? I can not read the future, nor would I claim to have that ability. So who would claim to know this? I don't see the logic in seeing my future as utterly doomed.

There are sometimes up sides to situations as well -which are often hard to see in a bad predicament. But of course, I believe that they are still there....
Don't get me wrong. Diabetes is not a terminal illness, I will live a long time, at least I hope. Not as long though as those in my family who do not have diabetes but still a long time, possibly into my seventies or even longer. What will kill me is the complications, such as heart disease or kidney failure. But death ain't the problem either, the real bitch is the side effects, being unable to feel things, sense hot and cold, to always feel cold, to lose your sight and hearing, to be unable to make yourself heard, to lose your memory and of course the consequences associated with these effects. You in effect become far less than you once were. A living vegetable, dependant upon others.

I speak out of experience btw. My father had the disease, as has several others in my family. He lived with us, so I got to see the degeneration in his health and the effect on my mother. My description is all based on what I know might happen, what I have seen happen. And because I come from the same genetic base, is likely to happen to me also. It is only a matter of time.

That said, I do try to be positive. There is a long time left, perhaps better treatments will be found or perhaps even a cure! But I'm realistic enough to know that it might not.

If the worst came to the worst ain't nobody going to get in my way. The only thing that would stop me is my loved ones being held responsible for my choice. That ain't right! Which is what I'm trying to get at.
 
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  #11  
Old 02-20-2009, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
I must say, it's somewhat hypocritical for a collectivist to support collectivism when it means redistributing wealth, and then decry it when it means the collective morality is forced down his throat. Maybe if you had supported individual freedom from the beginning, you would not have to worry about your right to suicide being impinged upon?
Life is full of contradiction!

Ideology is all very well, but black and white the world ain't. I'm a pragmatist. The question and answer is what works best. You have forsaken the middle way. Extremes always fail eventually. At least I believe so.

The 'collective' ain't gonna stop me in the end, they can't punish you when you are dead. I just have to do it before I am incapable of doing it, and without implicating those around me.
 
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Old 02-20-2009, 08:29 AM
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Well this is quite the morale-boosting thread, isn't it. Societal mores are a self-contradicting patchwork of reactive policies cobbled together under duress by people who are almost never thinking beyond near-term and often narrowly defined consequences. Philosophically, I agree with you on this point.

That said, I do think it is possible to manage diabetes more effectively these days than in previous generations. (That is my impression anyway, having several diabetic friends and having worked for years in a long-term care facility with a sizable population of diabetics.) Hopefully your own quality of life will remain much more robust for much longer.
 
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  #13  
Old 02-20-2009, 08:44 AM
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Of course, treatment and care has improved much over the last two decades, I exaggerate a little to make the point for sure. Unlike my father I have much more research and knowledge of care to draw upon. Yet ultimately, there is nothing that modern medicine can do, there is no cure. It is a degenerative illness, given time, the picture I painted will come true.

Life isn't always a bed of roses, perhaps we need to see the pain of others once in a while to truly appreciate it when it is.
 
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Old 02-20-2009, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm View Post
Life is full of contradiction!
Contradiction is a indication of an error in logic. As such, if your life is full of contradiction, then you might want to re-examine the logic behind it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm View Post

Ideology is all very well, but black and white the world ain't.
The world is not black nor white. And neither is logical consistency.

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Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm View Post
I'm a pragmatist. The question and answer is what works best. You have forsaken the middle way. Extremes always fail eventually. At least I believe so.
If you really were a pragmatist, I think you'd accept that you have no right to coerce others to act a certain way as long as they respected your freedoms. That is peace. Socialism has ruined so many lives - hundreds of millions dead, billions of people oppressed - that any self respecting pragmatist would run at full speed to safety of individualism. Supporting socialism is not pragmatic. It's dogmatic refusal to accept the logic, reason and respect for freedom of others.





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Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm View Post
The 'collective' ain't gonna stop me in the end, they can't punish you when you are dead. I just have to do it before I am incapable of doing it, and without implicating those around me.
You'll be a lucky person if you can time it just right. You'd be surprised how many people terminally ill people are in restrained environments at hospitals because they are deemed to be a threat to themselves. My grandfather has been in just that situation for nearly ten years. Pragmatism, eh?
 
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Old 02-20-2009, 09:00 AM
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Well this is quite the morale-boosting thread, isn't it. Societal mores are a self-contradicting patchwork of reactive policies cobbled together under duress by people who are almost never thinking beyond near-term and often narrowly defined consequences. Philosophically, I agree with you on this point.

That said, I do think it is possible to manage diabetes more effectively these days than in previous generations. (That is my impression anyway, having several diabetic friends and having worked for years in a long-term care facility with a sizable population of diabetics.) Hopefully your own quality of life will remain much more robust for much longer.
Mr Watley, I have to respectfully ask, why do you turn to morality when discussing law? Surely, history tells us that basing law on morality is itself responsible for more death and oppression than any deadly disease.
 
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Old 02-20-2009, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm View Post
Life is full of contradiction!
Contradiction is a indication of an error in logic. As such, if your life is full of contradiction, then you might want to re-examine the logic behind it.
That is true, Spock But human beings are not logical, (even though some might wish to live by it), life is thus full of contradiction.

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If you really were a pragmatist, I think you'd accept that you have no right to coerce others to act a certain way as long as they respected your freedoms. That is peace. Socialism has ruined so many lives - hundreds of millions dead, billions of people oppressed - that any self respecting pragmatist would run at full speed to safety of individualism. Supporting socialism is not pragmatic. It's dogmatic refusal to accept the logic, reason and respect for freedom of others.
I do accept that I have no right to coerce others, my preference is persuasion and cooperation! And yes socialism has ruined many lives. But what political ideology has not? The problem is unquestioning obedience to ideology. I have no problem with an individual's freedom. My concern is only when one person's freedom is to the detriment of another's. How do you decide upon the intersection?

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You'll be a lucky person if you can time it just right. You'd be surprised how many people terminally ill people are in restrained environments at hospitals because they are deemed to be a threat to themselves. My grandfather has been in just that situation for nearly ten years. Pragmatism, eh?
True, timing is the problem. At least it has been made the problem by society at present, which prevents assisted suicide in the UK. I could travel to Switzerland, but as indicated in the link I posted earlier any relatives that came with me, might be prosecuted. I have between now and then to change the law, or go alone! That is not the way it should be, IMO.
 
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Old 02-20-2009, 09:53 AM
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That is true, Spock But human beings are not logical, (even though some might wish to live by it), life is thus full of contradiction.
When they are logical, they are better for it. Purely logical existence may not be achieved in life, but it should be achieved in the (ideally) restricted realm of government (i.e., coercion).




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Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm View Post
I do accept that I have no right to coerce others
No modern liberal can honestly say that. The collectivist mentality that modern liberalism is founded upon is one of coercion.

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Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm View Post
And yes socialism has ruined many lives. But what political ideology has not?
Libertarianism has a splendid track record.


Quote:
Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm View Post
The problem is unquestioning obedience to ideology.
Nobody should have unquestioning obedience to an ideology. Humans are certainly inclined towards a capacity for reasoning, which would put us all in positions to think for ourselves.

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Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm View Post
I have no problem with an individual's freedom. My concern is only when one person's freedom is to the detriment of another's. How do you decide upon the intersection?
Freedom of two is achieved when each one refrains from violating the freedom of the other. Seems simple enough. When you force somebody to do something, you've violated his freedom. The key concept here is "consent".



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Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm View Post
True, timing is the problem. At least it has been made the problem by society at present, which prevents assisted suicide in the UK. I could travel to Switzerland, but as indicated in the link I posted earlier any relatives that came with me, might be prosecuted. I have between now and then to change the law, or go alone! That is not the way it should be, IMO.
Of course it is not right. Throughout the history of mankind, we accumulate a massive record of injustices based entirely upon collective morality. Is it not revealing that America incarcerates more people per capita then any other nation? That's what happens when laws are expected to reflect the morality of the majority.
 
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Old 02-20-2009, 10:08 AM
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From such a simple question, this thread has touched on some pretty deep issues.

All I want to add is - if you want to suck start a shotgun, think about those that you leave behind.

My grandmother killed herself when my mom was 20 years old. My mom is now 59, and still crys when she thinks about her mother (my grandmother).

If you want to off yourself, it might be your "right" to do so. But you have no right to harm those that love you. You have no right to dish out life long emotional scars to anyone.
 
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Old 02-20-2009, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm View Post
That is true, Spock But human beings are not logical, (even though some might wish to live by it), life is thus full of contradiction.
When they are logical, they are better for it. Purely logical existence may not be achieved in life, but it should be achieved in the (ideally) restricted realm of government (i.e., coercion).
I agree for the most part. But governments must also be compassionate, IMO. There is no logical reason to spend money on the care of the terminally ill, but for compassionate reasons, government funded hospices exist in the UK. I can't fault that.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm View Post
I do accept that I have no right to coerce others
No modern liberal can honestly say that. The collectivist mentality that modern liberalism is founded upon is one of coercion.
Either your statement is in error or I'm not a 'modern' liberal. I coerce no one and object to those that do. Though my government rules in my name admittedly.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm View Post
And yes socialism has ruined many lives. But what political ideology has not?
Libertarianism has a splendid track record.
If it has had power over any large population, I bet it has ruined lives, as all political systems do! Catering to the majority always leaves the minority in the lurch. And nobody can please everybody. In fact I would go so far as to say no one can even please themselves for ever, not in a global society of 6 billion people.

Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm View Post
The problem is unquestioning obedience to ideology.
Nobody should have unquestioning obedience to an ideology. Humans are certainly inclined towards a capacity for reasoning, which would put us all in positions to think for ourselves.
Agreed

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Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm View Post
I have no problem with an individual's freedom. My concern is only when one person's freedom is to the detriment of another's. How do you decide upon the intersection?
Freedom of two is achieved when each one refrains from violating the freedom of the other. Seems simple enough. When you force somebody to do something, you've violated his freedom. The key concept here is "consent".
Agreed, consent is good. But how do you stop the thief? And what about reality? What if a decision has to be made?

What a lovely doughnut, but we don't consent to share. Cricket divides it for us without our consent. Is that really so bad?

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Of course it is not right. Throughout the history of mankind, we accumulate a massive record of injustices based entirely upon collective morality. Is it not revealing that America incarcerates more people per capita then any other nation? That's what happens when laws are expected to reflect the morality of the majority.
So who should decide the laws we live by? Are you proposing anarchy?
 
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Old 02-20-2009, 10:54 AM
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From such a simple question, this thread has touched on some pretty deep issues.

All I want to add is - if you want to suck start a shotgun, think about those that you leave behind.

My grandmother killed herself when my mom was 20 years old. My mom is now 59, and still crys when she thinks about her mother (my grandmother).

If you want to off yourself, it might be your "right" to do so. But you have no right to harm those that love you. You have no right to dish out life long emotional scars to anyone.
I'm sorry for your mother's experience!

But who said I would harm those that I love in any way? It would not be a unilateral, spur of the moment decision on my part. There would be time for thought and discussion and reflection, but ultimately it is my life and I want to choose when to end it. Hopefully that would be with the understanding and support of those I love.
 
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