Connecticut Governor Vetoes Bill That Would End Death Penalty

[StrongInTheArm]

Originally Posted by John Scott

...
You suffer from an socialist misunderstanding of "equality". Suggesting that the color of a person's skin should affect their sentence is just racist.

You seem to have got it arse over tit. I was suggesting quite the reverse, that the colour of a victim's skin should not influence whether the death penalty was sought or not. Justice should be blind to race.

[John Scott]

Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm

You seem to have got it arse over tit. I was suggesting quite the reverse, that the colour of a victim's skin should not influence whether the death penalty was sought or not. Justice should be blind to race.

There is no proof that race of the victim does influence whether or not the death penalty is sought. Cause and effect is quite different from correlation.

[~kev~]

I also see a cultural difference here. On one side we have people that may have never been the victim of a violent crime, may have never known a victim, may have never known a killer.

Add to that, those that are opposed to the death penalty may not really understand "how" the world works with predators and prey.

Most of the people put to death, that murder was not their first crime. Chances are it was not a spur of the moment killing, or a crime of passion - such as coming home and finding your spouse in bed with someone else.

The majority of the people put to death have had numerous run ins with the law. They have a disregard for society and the law.

Can I see a world without the death penalty, sure I can. Do I want to pay for it, no, I do not. I see no reason to keep some killer alive for 30 or 40 years, only for him/her to die of a heart attack or stroke. Lets just push the fast forward button, skip those 30 or 40 years and jump to the end result. Which is everyone dies sooner or later. And in the case of a serial killer, it needs to be sooner rather then later.

[John Scott]

I like living in a country with the death penalty. Seems most of the countries with the lowest murder rates also have the death penalty, and use it.

[Trapper]

Originally Posted by John Scott

I like living in a country with the death penalty. Seems most of the countries with the lowest murder rates also have the death penalty, and use it.

Any sources for this? My research shows the opposite.

[John Scott]

Originally Posted by Trapper

Any sources for this? My research shows the opposite.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._homicide_rate

Japan, Singapore and the United Arab Emirates are notable users of the death penalty and come to mind when "exceptionally low murder rates" come to mind.

[Muddy]

Originally Posted by John Scott

...As a convicted killer myself, and having lived with a lot of other killers, I know most are not insane...

Is there a typo herein?

[John Scott]

Originally Posted by Muddy

Is there a typo herein?

No. Was convicted of homicide (committed 1987) and lived with others convicted of homicide in prison.

There are a lot more convicted killers in society than most people imagine. When I was in construction, there was three on one jobsite.

I think people imagine that it takes some kind of absolute evil to kill another human, but if you think about it killing is just an hop, skip and jump from punching somebody, which most everybody has done sometime or another.

[Muddy]

Originally Posted by John Scott

...There are a lot more convicted killers in society than most people imagine...

Why is that, do you suppose?

[John Scott]

Originally Posted by Muddy

Why is that, do you suppose?

Probably because there are many reasons to kill. If people actually killed every time they felt the impulse, we would all be killers.

[Muddy]

I've never actually had that impulse. I've felt like screaming, punching a wall, even punching someone. But I've never felt like killing someone. I've never even punched anyone except in self defense.

But my question was poorly worded. I meant why are there a lot of convicted killers in society, instead of behind bars or in a tomb whichever the case may be? Naturally I understand that there are killers roving in our midst...but convicted killers?

What kind of extenuating circumstances could exist to allow that to happen?

[Muddy]

I suppose for one thing there is a distinction between murder and manslaughter.

[John Scott]

Originally Posted by Muddy

I've never actually had that impulse. I've felt like screaming, punching a wall, even punching someone. But I've never felt like killing someone. I've never even punched anyone except in self defense.

But my question was poorly worded. I meant why are there a lot of convicted killers in society, instead of behind bars or in a tomb whichever the case may be? Naturally I understand that there are killers roving in our midst...but convicted killers?

What kind of extenuating circumstances could exist to allow that to happen?

I doubt they are out in society because of extenuating circumstances. I was sentenced to 3.5 years to seven years because, most likely, my age at the time.

There was a guy in there who killed another fellow who insulted him; he got 7 years.

Two guys who killed a taxi driver were in for life. Life doesn't mean "life" though - it means 20 years or so.

One guy killed a fellow who hit his sister; he got one year.

Most people only do 5 to 7 years, even if the average sentence is longer.

And, I find it extraordinary that you never had the impulse to kill. I can recall several times I've felt it. Once, for example, I worked as a subcontractor for a large Seattle based general contractor. As the work was finishing up, he fired every single subcontractor and refused to pay. He said that since the superintendent negotiated the contracts, he didn't have to pay.

I had two kids and wife to feed, rent to pay, car payments to make, and this guy was robbing me blind while driving around in a Mercedes Benz 500SL.

Long story short, I went to his office, locked the door behind me and told him I'd beat him to death then and there or he could pay me what he honestly knew he owed me.

Turns out the amount he knew he honestly owed me was the same amount I knew he owed me, and I left with a check. And, yes, I would have killed him and gone to prison willingly. People don't like being abused.

[Muddy]

Well chalk that up to my ignorance of the law. I just didn't realize that one could spend that little time incarcerated for actually taking a life.

I've been in situations such as you describe where people didn't pay me. I've been the victim of some terrible injustices (much worse than not getting paid). It was very difficult for me to tolerate because I'm extremely sensitive to fairness or the lack thereof. Yes, I felt vindictive. Whenever I think about it, I still feel vindictive. But not to the point of killing the offender. I'm not trying to portray some moralistic higher ground here. You've made me think about this and I just honestly never had that urge.

As to Mr. Mercedes Benz, something that I would have to ask myself is how I would feed my wife and kids and pay the rent and car payments after I willingly went to prison.

[John Scott]

I just didn't realize that one could spend that little time incarcerated for actually taking a life.

It's quite the scandal if you ask me. I'd say 85% of convicted killers I knew acknowledge the fact that they deserve to die for it.

But not to the point of killing the offender.

If justice could be had otherwise, I probably would have been open to it. But it's common knowledge in the construction industry that GC's don't pay subs and it takes more money to collect the debt through the courts than the debt is worth. Collecting on $5,000 can cost $10,000 in attorney's fees.

[Muddy]

Originally Posted by John Scott

It's quite the scandal if you ask me. I'd say 85% of convicted killers I knew acknowledge the fact that they deserve to die for it.

That's quite remarkable. In your estimation, what percentage of these were/are remorseful, versus callously glad that they weren't getting what they themselves felt they deserved?

Originally Posted by John Scott

If justice could be had otherwise, I probably would have been open to it. But it's common knowledge in the construction industry that GC's don't pay subs and it takes more money to collect the debt through the courts than the debt is worth. Collecting on $5,000 can cost $10,000 in attorney's fees.

You're preachin' to Noah about the flood! I've lost many tens of thousands because it was simply cheaper to walk away. One solution is to place a mechanic's lien on the project though. But, I'm glad that guy paid you.

[Zap]

Originally Posted by John Scott

I had two kids and wife to feed, rent to pay, car payments to make, and this guy was robbing me blind while driving around in a Mercedes Benz 500SL.

Long story short, I went to his office, locked the door behind me and told him I'd beat him to death then and there or he could pay me what he honestly knew he owed me.

Turns out the amount he knew he honestly owed me was the same amount I knew he owed me, and I left with a check. And, yes, I would have killed him and gone to prison willingly. People don't like being abused.

Seriously, dude.

Same question as Muddy.

Your math skills are good enough that you know not to chase $5000 by spending $10000 in lawyer fees.
But your math skills fail you when working out that it's better not to get paid for this one job and still be able to support your family by working other jobs than it is to go to jail for a few years and have no income for that entire time?

Leads me to another question. Were you counting on the fact that the GC was going to back down and pay you when you threatened him with his life? What would you really have done if he had told you to take your best shot instead of paying you? Or, worse yet, pulled a gun on you, right then and there?

[John Scott]

your math skills

Life isn't about math. It can be about other things. Justice, getting justice, etc. Seriously, how many people do you think are in prison, paying a heavy price just to ensure they are not "disrespected", as the young people say? I saw the attempt to defraud me as an attack on my kids, and as a father I felt the need to get justice, no matter what the cost.

Were you counting on the fact that the GC was going to back down and pay you when you threatened him with his life?

I thought I already answered that question.

Originally Posted by John Scott

And, yes, I would have killed him and gone to prison willingly.

I was surprised he paid me. I have been threatened many times, and I have never backed down. People I know have been threatened by others and didn't back down. Typically, humans value their pride over their safety and don't back down. So the fact he paid me was a shock.

Or, worse yet, pulled a gun on you, right then and there?

I probably would have been shot. I wouldn't have been the first time somebody pulled a gun on my (speaking of which, I didn't back down then and grabbed the gun only after the trigger was pulled, revealing a empty chamber - people really don't like to back down, do they?)

If you go through life considering all the ways you can fail, I seriously doubt you'd do anything. Any plan could fail for any number of reasons, generally speaking.

[Zap]

Originally Posted by John Scott

Life isn't about math. It can be about other things. Justice, getting justice, etc. Seriously, how many people do you think are in prison, paying a heavy price just to ensure they are not "disrespected", as the young people say? I saw the attempt to defraud me as an attack on my kids, and as a father I felt the need to get justice, no matter what the cost.

True enough, but if I'm standing in that room with that GC, as you were, and thinking about my family, then they come first.
Killing the guy is going to hurt my family, much more, even, than losing the money that he owes me.
At the point where I threaten to kill the guy, it becomes about my pride, and my family is put in more jeopardy by my actions than by a GC who won't pay me.
And, it's not about avoiding failure. It about avoiding getting myself into a situation whereby my family is screwed because of my actions.

I also have a strong sense of fairness and justice. I completely understand wanting to go in there and let loose on the guy. But I have to stop short when I think about what that might do to my family.

[John Scott]

At the point where I threaten to kill the guy, it becomes about my pride, and my family is put in more jeopardy by my actions than by a GC who won't pay me.

Definitely a more productive way of handling it, and precisely how I handle those kind of issues today. But as a young 20-something, I absolutely was not willing to let my family suffer injustice, no matter what the price.