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  #1  
Old 06-05-2009, 05:17 PM
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Connecticut Governor Vetoes Bill That Would End Death Penalty

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Connecticut's governor has vetoed legislation that would have abolished the death penalty. Gov. Jodi Rell says the state cannot tolerate people who commit the most violent of murders. The Republican had expressed her opposition to the measure all along and issued her promised veto today. Supporters in the Democrat-controlled General Assembly have said they do not have the necessary two-thirds majority of votes to override her veto. The bill, which would have replaced capital punishment with life in prison, passed 19-17 in the Senate and 90-56 in the House last month. Connecticut has 10 death row inmates. It has executed one inmate since the U.S. Supreme Court allowed states to reinstate capital punishment in 1976. http://www.ohio.com/news/nation/47055582.html
Once again, the death penalty is in the news.

Should the death penalty be abolished? WHY? WHY NOT?


If you are going to participate in this debate, I am going to first ask that you review our special rules for the politics forum. I will be expecting you to back up your thoughts with your reason WHY you feel that way. Additionally, if you state something as fact, please provide evidence.

Play nice! I will not tolerate disrespect in this thread.
 
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  #2  
Old 06-05-2009, 06:06 PM
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Well I think it is quite clear that the Governor should be put to death.
 
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  #3  
Old 06-05-2009, 06:11 PM
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For those of you looking for a neutral (appears to be) source to research this topic, the following site seems to include a large amount of cited information.

http://deathpenalty.procon.org/
 
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  #4  
Old 06-05-2009, 06:16 PM
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j/k BTW.

Cricket you have some good links, I'll check that one out right now. I've traditionally been pro DP.
 
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Old 06-05-2009, 08:18 PM
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I'm in favor of preserving people as long as something good can be made out of them. From that perspective the term capital punishment is self contradictory. A dead person cannot learn by his/her mistakes, and that person cannot improve in any way and cannot give anything back to the society.

A decent punishment would be imprisonment and an array of well planned mechanisms to make that person be worth preserving in our population, and be worth interacting with from the point of view of the other members of that society.

But I suppose death penalty is not about punishment, it's about warning people. Making them think "I don't want do end up like that guy". That is effective, but then again, that wouldn't benefit the people, nor the person who ended up dead.

Sorry I messed up my english writing here, I hope that sounded clear, need to practice a bit more.
 
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  #6  
Old 06-05-2009, 08:36 PM
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The con arguments in the link in post #3 http://deathpenalty.procon.org/viewa...stionID=001324 are weak and profuse with attackable statements, whereas the pro arguments seem altogether sound to me. There are so many statements to challenge on the con side that the issue actually seems to me to border on no contest.

Last edited by Atom; 06-05-2009 at 08:41 PM. Reason: added link
 
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  #7  
Old 06-05-2009, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Atom View Post
The con arguments in the link in post #3 are weak and profuse with attackable statements, whereas the pro arguments seem altogether sound to me. There are so many statements to challenge on the con side that the issue actually seems to me to border on no contest.
Nice catch there. Now you see why I qualified my comment with "appears to be" a neutral source. Initially I left that out, but after going back over it, I couldn't decide if they were actually neutral or if they had possibly left out quite a few con arguments.
 
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  #8  
Old 06-05-2009, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Cricket View Post
Nice catch there. Now you see why I qualified my comment with "appears to be" a neutral source. Initially I left that out, but after going back over it, I couldn't decide if they were actually neutral or if they had possibly left out quite a few con arguments.
Actually there are quite a few more con arguments than pro arguments, but they all are quite vulnerable. It also seems to me that both sides have some pretty reputable sources.
 
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  #9  
Old 06-05-2009, 08:54 PM
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If the risk of executing an innocent man were removed, would you think differently?
 
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  #10  
Old 06-05-2009, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Cricket View Post
If the risk of executing an innocent man were removed, would you think differently?
No. In fact, that would just be icing on the cake.
 
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  #11  
Old 06-05-2009, 09:26 PM
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Question for you . . .

This little girl was 3 years old. Her name was Evelyn. She was raped, sodomized, and murdered in her own home in South Sioux City, Nebraska last month, while her parent slept in another room. Her 5 year old brother is believed to have witnessed at least part of the attack.

You tell me . . .

What would be a fit punishment for the man that did this to this precious child?
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  #12  
Old 06-05-2009, 09:33 PM
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I personally think that a sentence of death would be appropriate in that situation.
 
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  #13  
Old 06-06-2009, 11:14 AM
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I would say, help.

Since no sane person would commit such a crime, the guy would have to be insane to have committed them. I don't believe in killing people for being ill.

That said, I can understand the desire for vengeance. But the state has to be better than any individual and emotionless in its pursuit of justice.

Of course if life means a full life term in gaol then it occurs to me to ask, what is the point, you might as well have the death penalty and save the tax payer the money. But since 'mistake', deliberate or not, cannot be removed from human administered systems of justice, the point is moot.
 
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  #14  
Old 06-06-2009, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm View Post
I would say, help.

Since no sane person would commit such a crime, the guy would have to be insane to have committed them.
I consider this first sentence in error as a general statement as I feel that it assumes far too much.

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Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm View Post
I don't believe in killing people for being ill.

That said, I can understand the desire for vengeance. But the state has to be better than any individual and emotionless in its pursuit of justice.

Of course if life means a full life term in gaol then it occurs to me to ask, what is the point, you might as well have the death penalty and save the tax payer the money. But since 'mistake', deliberate or not, cannot be removed from human administered systems of justice, the point is moot.
 
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  #15  
Old 06-06-2009, 11:35 AM
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Since no sane person would commit such a crime
You do not need to be insane to enjoy hurting people or getting sexual gratification from it. If sadistic tendencies made people insane, that sort of redefining of the word "insane" would just render the word useless, because the majority of the world would be insane. Not just on sadistic tendencies, which are extremely common, but on all the other similar ways humans deviate from the perceived norm.

As a convicted killer myself, and having lived with a lot of other killers, I know most are not insane. They simply have socialist tendencies - i.e., they socialize their need for gratification. Liberalism tells us it is okay to socialize the need for money by taking from those who have and giving to those who have not. Criminals tend to believe in a similar fashion that it is okay to steal from those who have when they need it; whether that be money, a car, sex, or something else. Criminality could be defined as socialism; i.e., the denial of individual sovereignty.

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That said, I can understand the desire for vengeance.
Not vengeance. It's self protection. If somebody kills Bob, who's to say they won't kill Harry?
 
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  #16  
Old 06-06-2009, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atom View Post
I consider this first sentence in error as a general statement as I feel that it assumes far too much.
I don't believe someone could be in their right mind and commit such crimes.


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Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
You do not need to be insane to enjoy hurting people or getting sexual gratification from it. If sadistic tendencies made people insane, that sort of redefining of the word "insane" would just render the word useless, because the majority of the world would be insane. Not just on sadistic tendencies, which are extremely common, but on all the other similar ways humans deviate from the perceived norm.

...

Not vengeance. It's self protection. If somebody kills Bob, who's to say they won't kill Harry?
The case as Cricket described was not about 'sadistic tendencies', it was about a sadistic act. He didn't just think it, he committed the act. Nobody in their right mind does that.

Society can be just as effectively protected from him, by locking him away. Protection does not mean the state has to give the baying mob blood to quench its thirst for vengeance.
 
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  #17  
Old 06-06-2009, 11:59 AM
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In Gregg v. Georgia, 428 U.S. 153 (1976), the US Supreme Court in a 7 - 2 decision written by Justice Potter Stewart, JD, stated:

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"The death penalty is said to serve two principal social purposes: retribution and deterrence of capital crimes by prospective offenders. In part, capital punishment is an expression of society's moral outrage at particularly offensive conduct. This function may be unappealing to many, but it is essential in an ordered society that asks its citizens to rely on legal processes, rather than self-help, to vindicate their wrongs...

The instinct for retribution is part of the nature of man, and channeling that instinct in the administration of criminal justice serves an important purpose in promoting the stability of a society governed by law. When people begin to believe that organized society is unwilling or unable to impose upon criminal offenders the punishment they 'deserve,' then there are sown the seeds of anarchy -- of self-help, vigilante justice, and lynch law."
1976 - Gregg v. Georgia (346KB)
http://deathpenalty.procon.org/sourc...ggvGeorgia.pdf
 
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  #18  
Old 06-06-2009, 12:03 PM
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The case as Cricket described was not about 'sadistic tendencies', it was about a sadistic act. He didn't just think it, he committed the act. Nobody in their right mind does that.
You want to draw an illicit distinction between the act that comes from sadistic tendencies and the sadistic tendency. But we are discussing "insanity", and insanity does not deal with acts. It deals with states of mind. So, sorry, action is not required to be sadistic. And insanity is not required to be sadistic. Normal male sex, in many species, is about domination. In one culture (still, in 2009) it is customary to "force" one's chosen bride to accompany the male home. Just because you think it's insane doesn't make it so.

Rape and murder are older than humanity. It's all natural. The only unnatural thing is to think that rape and murder are oddities, or even the product of insanity.

Fortunately, individualist tendencies tell us to agree to a social contract whereby we reject rape, murder and other encroachments in return for a guarantee of security for ourselves against those same encroachments. The social contract is not natural. Murder is. Rape is. Mayhem is natural. Watch the Discovery Channel sometime if you want to see how natural rape and murder are.

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Society can be just as effectively protected from him, by locking him away.
Protected? So you think that nobody escapes from prison? Nobody murders prison guards? Um, read the news?

And prison doesn't pay the debt owed - which is life.
 
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Old 06-06-2009, 01:59 PM
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I believe our opinions about the death penalty are formed in large part by our beliefs about life and death. I've long held that life on this planet is just a stop along the way. I hold that there is life after death, that 'we' do not die, but only the body, which is of this Earth, just as much as the trees. In a sense, our bodies are little more than apartments that 'we' live in while we are here. Everything around us, and I do mean every thing, is of this Earth, except 'us'. (Some would call it a soul or a spirit, whatever it is that makes my fingers move where I want them to to type this...)

We have the ability to chose to behave while we are here, the choice to do right or to do wrong, and that when our body grows old and fails, as it is designed to do (planned obsolescence), we will leave it.

Some people just will not behave and society, out of necessity, must have a way to deal with them. Some are of the opinion that locking them away for the remainder of their life on this planet is good enough, but that actually places a burden on society, doesn't it? We need to feed and clothe them, watch over them, provide medical care to them, etc. I'm not against doing that, but sometimes they do escape their confines and are again free to wreak havoc on innocent individuals. Some crimes just require a permanent removal from society, and that's served by the death penalty.

I believe the death penalty is nothing more than the releasing of someone from their Earthly body (as the body is not capable of sustaining them if it is not thriving), allowing them to leave here, which will most likely be a more severe punishment than having a needle stuck in their arm as they were unable to fulfill their mission, their 'purpose' for coming here.

Society must have a method by which they can permanently remove individuals who simply will not straighten up and fly right, and the death penalty serves that purpose quite well.

I'm all for it.
 
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  #20  
Old 06-06-2009, 02:07 PM
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Robert Macy, District Attorney of Oklahoma City, described his concept of the need for retribution in one case: "In 1991, a young mother was rendered helpless and made to watch as her baby was executed. The mother was then mutilated and killed. The killer should not lie in some prison with three meals a day, clean sheets, cable TV, family visits and endless appeals. For justice to prevail, some killers just need to die."
http://teacher.deathpenaltycurriculu...argument2a.htm
 
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