Can a government tell you what to wear?

[Muddy]

Originally Posted by JacobGodwin

So I take it you guys who support France forcing Muslim women to dress a certain way, are okay with Saudi Arabia forcing Westerners who are visiting to dress in Islamic clothing right?

How can you support freedom of choice if the only choices are the ones you like?

I agree that a government should be able to limit how people in their country should dress...to a certain extent.

I just hope those who are supporting France's rules will also support SA's and Iran's. Or else....I smell hypocrisy.

Well, if the Westerner's attire included a bandanna over the mouth and nose and a pearl handled Colt 44 on each hip, I think I could understand Saudi Arabia making certain restrictions. If these Westerners were sporting said accoutrements because they felt God wanted them to be prepared at all times for a train heist, then that's different.

Ohhh the angst of decision! Look at my avatar everybody. Talk amongst yourselves.

[Atom]

The Mennonites, they don't believe in technology, here they are riding down the main streets in horse and buggy and people have to go around them, and they refuse to even put one light in the backs of their buggies. Not even a non-electric lantern, now that I don't get.

[Muddy]

Has anyone slammed into a buggy and gotten killed yet?

[Atom]

Originally Posted by Muddy

Has anyone slammed into a buggy and gotten killed yet?

Yes, lots of times according to my neighbor. Also, just a week or two ago I saw in the paper where one was hit by a car at night and the buggy driver had to be airlifted to a hospital in Columbia. I wonder what that dude thought about the technology that saved his life.

[Atom]

Oh you're talking about the car driver? Not to my knowledge, I've heard of only Mennonite injuries and deaths.

[Muddy]

Yeah, I meant wait until the governor's niece rams one and breaks her pelvis in 6 places.

[Atom]

Anyway.. what got me to thinking about Mennonites is the way the females dress in black garments, and they wear black bonnets that make it very difficult to see their faces.

[Atom]

Originally Posted by Muddy

Yeah, I meant wait until the governor's niece rams one and breaks her pelvis in 6 places.

Yeah right. My neighbor says the town tried to get them to comply on several issues but they just won't, so apparently the authorities don't press it.

[Atom]

off topic: I sent Cricket an angry PM, she's probably pissed at me now. lol
/off topic

I suppose if schools can tell kids what not to wear then governments can tell grownups what not to wear.

[juliensimon]

Originally Posted by Atom

off topic: I sent Cricket an angry PM, she's probably pissed at me now. lol
/off topic

I suppose if schools can tell kids what not to wear then governments can tell grownups what not to wear.

burkas have been banned for 5 years from poublic school, and so are other signs of religion. The message is: You are "free" to live your religion but don't shove it in people's face.

Considering France has the largest Muslim population in Europe, I can't see that going well.

[StrongInTheArm]

I have noticed a common misunderstanding. It is worth making a distinction between the religion and cultural norms. Islam does not call for women to be covered from head to foot, but in SOME Muslim countries it is a custom for women to cover themselves when outside or when they come into contact with strangers. At home with the family they dress as all women dress at home.

This thread may be enlightening in this respect.

It is perhaps understandable that the vast mass of uneducated people could take the PERCEIVED wisdom of a religious book and unknowingly turn it into a requirement. It is quite another thing for their religious leaders not to correct their error.

Kryvast was kind enough to do some research in the above quoted thread and found only this passage that addressed attire in the Koran:

"Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and guard their chastity; that is purer for them. And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their chastity, and not to make a display of their beauty except what is apparent, and let them cast a cover over their bosoms.... And turn to Allah (God) altogether, O believers, in order that you might succeed (Koran 24: 30-31)."

So let us not confuse the desire of these women to cover themselves as being a requirement of their religion. It is more of a cultural thing.

Take a sunny day at the beach for example. Some women will be most happy in a skimpy bikini, while others only in a full swim suit. There will be a proportion who would only care to wear comfortable slacks and blouse. Would any of us think this out of place? I doubt it. I don't think any of us would deny any woman the chance to wear what she chose to wear.

I think all this nonsense is based on fear, fear of the unknown and the suicide bomber. (I might add that the reason they cover up is also based on fear). My suggestion, get to know some Muslim people. You'll find they are the same as US, they are not THEM at all. Just normal human beings struggling through life as best they can.

(Sorry for the preachy tone. )

[Muddy]

Thanks for the info MaxiStrong! Based on my new understanding, I think France has every right to ban such attire. Frankly (no pun intended), even if it was a religious issue, what's best for the community at large should be enforced. Like for example, those Mennonites should damn well be made to put some lights on their buggies. But it probably will never happen if they claim it's their religious right to not have them. That's why I was surprised about the burkas. But now that I know that wearing them is not a religious requirement, it makes more sense.

[Atom]

Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm

(...)So let us not confuse the desire of these women to cover themselves as being a requirement of their religion. It is more of a cultural thing. (...)

According to the information in the link in post# 19, http://www.islamiclearningmaterials....mic-dress.html , the requirement is based in religion.




.

[Atom]

That's what it seems like to me, anyway.

[Muddy]

It seems to me (from reading the info in the above link and also Wikipedia) that modesty is the basic tenet involved. How far one goes with that is left up to some interpretation. While the hijab is a religious requirement, there are different schools of thought on the burka.

[juliensimon]

I also thought it was a requirement. Thanks SITA for the clarification, and thanks Atom for confusing me again.

Anybody could let us know what the exact "deal" is?

[Muddy]

This fellow shares our lack of understanding.

[Muddy]

According to this article there is "no Koranic foundation" for the wearing of burkas.

[Atom]

Originally Posted by Muddy

It seems to me (from reading the info in the above link and also Wikipedia) that modesty is the basic tenet involved. How far one goes with that is left up to some interpretation. While the hijab is a religious requirement, there are different schools of thought on the burka.

It seems to me from reading the link you've provided above, that the whole business is based in religion.

"Qur'an

The Qur'an instructs Muslims to dress in a modest way."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab



Isn't the Qur'an a religious book, like the bible?

[Atom]

Originally Posted by juliensimon

(...) and thanks Atom for confusing me again. (...)

I beg your pardon, sir?