Can a government tell you what to wear? - Page 4

**juliensimon** · 07-03-2009, 09:12 AM

I think the point France is trying to make is not against the piece of clothing itself but the repression against women it represents. (according to the western standards).
Although some women might be very happy wearing a burka, some are obviously not.
Muslim women who live in France are living in a paradox. As Muddy pointed out earlier, we are a country where being topless on a beach is not a big deal. Muslim women experience in their everyday lives women free to do whatever the heck they want. There are still a lot of them repressed (not allowed to have a social life, "stuck" in the kitchen, kind of thing. And the burka goes along with those values of the man is in charge of the family and tell the women what to do.

I think what France was trying to do is "free" those women who don't want to be like this anymore. What they didn't think of is the thousands of women who still want to wear a burka and now can't.

What I find ironic is that in order to free someone, they pass a law that restrict their rights.

anonymously · 07-03-2009, 09:30 AM

Not sure if the adverts change of this page, but I think it is ironic that this is the one below your post
"The hijab shop"

Quote:

What I find ironic is that in order to free someone, they pass a law that restrict their rights

Excellent point. That smacks of two political agendas, the first because it is a Muslim symbol and the second to try and force a style of living on people that they do not want. This has nothing to do with women and everything to do with prejudice and the sort of political stupidity that did get the West into Iraq. But it is done in the name of emancipating women. Tosh.

StrongInTheArm · 07-03-2009, 10:43 AM

Julien your topless point interests me, what beach is that?

But seriously folks ...

Some women choose to go topless, but some choose not to, and that is fine! They have the choice to do what they want. Nobody is being forced to go topless.

But these women who want to remain covered outside of their home, are having their choice taken away from them. They are quite literally being forced, by the state, to disrobe!

(Obviously, we all want to give those women who are being forced to wear burkas against their will the chance to choose. Who could be against that).

**Muddy** · 07-03-2009, 11:00 AM

It's all David "Burka"witz's fault.

**juliensimon** · 07-03-2009, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm

Julien your topless point interests me, what beach is that?

All of them

It's now forbidden in public pools but some women still do it.

Flashing somebody is not that exciting in France.

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm

Some women choose to go topless, but some choose not to, and that is fine! They have the choice to do what they want. Nobody is being forced to go topless.

But these women who want to remain covered outside of their home, are having their choice taken away from them. They are quite literally being forced, by the state, to disrobe!

They are not forcing them to disrobe, they are forcing them to live in a country that allows it.

Would you go smoking pot in front of a cop in the states and say: but I'm allowed to do that in my country?

I'm not going to bring wine in a restaurant here otherwise I'll get kicked out.

I'm say saying that I agree with it, I'm saying that you can't force a country to allow something because that's the way it is in your country.

If people from UK would start driving on the other side of the road in France, imagine what a mess it would be

**Muddy** · 07-03-2009, 02:05 PM

And if wearing a burka actually isn't a religious requirement, there shouldn't be a problem.

**juliensimon** · 07-03-2009, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muddy

And if wearing a burka actually isn't a religious requirement, there shouldn't be a problem.

It's not about the religion - that's the thing.
People (store owners etc..) don't feel comfortable having people wearing "masks" in their store.
It brings a feeling of insecurity (most likely due to the brain washing from the media) and that's the main reason why they want to get rid of it, along with the emancipation of these women, which isn't a complete valid point as we stated above.

Same thing how being topless in the states would make people uncomfortable so they don't allow it.
It's just a question of pleasing the vast majority.

Laura Varon · 07-03-2009, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allen Farlow

I still don't want to be a bank teller and have someone completely covered from head to toe walk up to me...or be a police officer looking at a photo on a drivers license and only see a couple small eyes.

That made me laugh way harder than it should have...

anonymously · 07-04-2009, 07:52 AM

if there is a security issue, provided we are consistent, like in a bank where wearing motor cycle helmets is prohibited (and masks against swine flu and nuns in full habit) then the perso can bank elsewhere if they do not wish to comp[ly, but I don't believe we would be consistent and the crash helmets in banks is more about the wearer not being able to be hit by anyone if they decide to rob the bank.

But where do religion and culture end and begin. It may not be abdsoltely demanded that burkas are worn for religious purposes, but culturally. Does that really matter, do we really want not to allow people to bring any of their culture/religion with them? I have enjoyed being part of a multicultural society, enjoyed the richness that the food, dress, manners and much more have given to me. The way that I live has been drastically changed by the influence of other cultures brought by immigrants, I trust that they have learnt and benefited by being part of my culture too and hope that life is richer for both 'immigrants, and 'locals'.

**juliensimon** · 07-04-2009, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anonymously

do we really want not to allow people to bring any of their culture/religion with them?

being from France, we do allow lots of culture to co-exist.
Banning the burka is not banning a culture. It's just a tiny part of it. There are lots of places in France where not a whole lot of people speak french. In every single city, you'll find catholic churches, christian chuches, mosquee, buddhist temples etc...

StrongInTheArm · 07-04-2009, 10:46 AM

You gonna stop Americans flying the flag outside their homes, you gonna stop the Brits from eating fish n chips, you gonna stop the Swiss from yodelling, you gonna stop the Spanish from having a Siesta, you gonna stop Kiwi rugby players doing the haka, of course not, it is all good cultural fun. Of course wearing a burka for some Muslim women is very much a statement of their culture. But they are just a bunch of demonised animals that must not be treated like human beings aren't they, so who cares if they are not afforded the same rights as the rest of mankind?

Is that really the French way of doing things? Because that is the way it comes across to me.

**juliensimon** · 07-04-2009, 11:15 AM

because I'm sure lots of women wearing burka and being "abused" by a controlling husband have as much fun as doing the haka or having a siesta.

Of course, Brits eating fish and chips makes a big part of the population uncomfortable.

Of course, most American's are being forced by a controlling individual to fly a flag outside their homes.

France is overpopulated with no jobs right now. If some people don't like it, nobody is forcing them to live there.

StrongInTheArm · 07-04-2009, 11:22 AM

Out of interest Julien, what proportion of women who wear burkas do you think are being forced to do so in France by their controlling husbands/culture?

**juliensimon** · 07-04-2009, 11:30 AM

There is no definite way to know the answer to that question. But my uncle is married to an Algerian woman so we have talked about it together and she is really for it. She lives in an Algerian community where women don't wear burka and she personally believes that burka are demeaning, and so does most of her friends.

My boss (born in Morroco) was visiting Israel one day (he is Jewish) and got stoned (with actual stones) because the 2 women friends he was with were "showing too much skin".
Do you think these two women will try to go and live there and impose their way?

**Muddy** · 07-04-2009, 12:24 PM

If flags, fish 'n chips, yodeling, siestas and the haka are flown, eaten, uttered, taken and danced at times or under circumstances that would be inappropriate of even dangerous to the public at large, then yes, those cultural activities should not be allowed. For example, it should be against the law to take a siesta while driving.

That being said, perhaps instead of making the wearing of burkas flatly illegal, France should have made them illegal to wear in certain places and/or at certain times, etc.

anonymously · 07-04-2009, 05:01 PM

Perhaps what they really should have done was strengthen their laws so that women who indeed wanted to wear burkas could and those who did not would get adequate protection from the authorities.

I am glad that I don't live in a society which says if you don't like it go away and live somewhere else. What will be the next obsession of the government, perhaps they will start disliking men and pass a law making them only leave their house for work, where does it all end? Governments believe too much that they know what is good for everyone and pass laws about anything and take us to war on fabricated evidence, saying it is good for the country and the world.

People can make up their own mind and if they are so bullied that they are not allowd to do so, that's the point at which legislation comes in. Sorry I believe it is a misguided anti-muslim act which will bounce back and hit them in the face. Just like the misguided act which took us to war with Iraq and fed most of the terrorism that we are now seeing.

**Muddy** · 07-04-2009, 06:03 PM

That is all true. What it has to do with burkas in France, I'm not sure. But it's all true.

anonymously · 07-05-2009, 03:38 PM

One last thought. Seems to me that if the French government were trying to give freedom to women forced into wearing burkas and some men had such a power over some women that they could make them do that using or believing that that is how women should dress, who believes they will accept this new situation? Perhaps the burka now becomes the house, for I am sure that if some men really believed that the wearing was essential are they just going to say "OK law has changed it is now OK for our women to go out without wearing such garments". They will simply stop them going out at all. Me thinks the later situation worse than the former.

kidding around · 07-05-2009, 03:42 PM

The government shouldn't get involved with what people where. They have more important things to worry about.

StrongInTheArm · 07-06-2009, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juliensimon

because I'm sure lots of women wearing burka and being "abused" by a controlling husband have as much fun as doing the haka or having a siesta.

...

France is overpopulated with no jobs right now. If some people don't like it, nobody is forcing them to live there.

Careful now! It is almost like you are about to say 'let's throw the foreigners out'. How many of those Muslims were born in France and have a right to be called French I wonder?