Can a government tell you what to wear?

[StrongInTheArm]

Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm

Out of interest Julien, what proportion of women who wear burkas do you think are being forced to do so in France by their controlling husbands/culture?

Originally Posted by juliensimon

There is no definite way to know the answer to that question. But my uncle is married to an Algerian woman so we have talked about it together and she is really for it. She lives in an Algerian community where women don't wear burka and she personally believes that burka are demeaning, and so does most of her friends.

There is a way to answer that question! Ask them. Has the French government done that before imposing their will? Uncle knows best because he has done a census of one. Hmmm...

Originally Posted by juliensimon

...
My boss (born in Morroco) was visiting Israel one day (he is Jewish) and got stoned (with actual stones) because the 2 women friends he was with were "showing too much skin".
Do you think these two women will try to go and live there and impose their way?

I'm sorry that those two women went through that experience, but since when does two wrongs make a right. The French government are going to punish all Muslim women in France who want to wear the burka because of what these women experienced? Where is the moral high ground? Shouldn't we in the West be leading by example and showing these 'backward peasants' how to live like 'civilised' people?

(Sorry about the sarcasm! )

(BTW most Muslims I know wouldn't dream of wearing a burka either, but some do. I don't think any less of them for doing so and I'm not fearful of them when they do. In fact in the current climate where people think it is OK, to persecute Muslims, I see in them a certain bravery. I don't know if I would be able to stand up for my beliefs with such courage.)

[juliensimon]

Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm

There is a way to answer that question! Ask them. Has the French government done that before imposing their will?

Because surely, women who are not allowed to show an inch of their body in public will be allowed by their husband to vote on a referendum.

Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm

Uncle knows best because he has done a census of one. Hmmm...

My uncle doesn't "know best" but living in a neighborhood where most of the people don't speak french gives him a better idea of what Muslim think than I do here, living in Vancouver.

Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm

I'm sorry that those two women went through that experience, but since when does two wrongs make a right. The French government are going to punish all Muslim women in France who want to wear the burka because of what these women experienced?

that is never what I said - But I start to believe that you would be a good politician

Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm

Where is the moral high ground? Shouldn't we in the West be leading by example and showing these 'backward peasants' how to live like 'civilised' people?

How can you be civilized when you are only allowed to see the world through a mesh and not allowed to talk to other people?

Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm

(BTW most Muslims I know wouldn't dream of wearing a burka either, but some do. I don't think any less of them for doing so and I'm not fearful of them when they do.

It's not about you being fearful of them, it's about them being prosecuted.

I never said it was the perfect solution, but neither did the government. They are acknowledging that there is women being prosecuted in France. That you can't know how many of them are wearing the burka as a choice.

Hassan Safoui, the leader of a Muslim association that supports the right to wear the veil, said it would be difficult to establish which women wore the veil by choice and which wore it because it was forced on them by male relatives.

Even the Muslim leader said it would be hard to know.

France “cannot accept in our country women imprisoned behind a mesh screen, cut off from all social life, deprived of all identity”, but he stopped short of advocating a ban on burkas.

Government spokesman Luc Chatel earlier refused to exclude legislation, but immigration minister Eric Besson said it would only “create tensions”. Since the parliament wished to study the question, “that is the best way to proceed”, Mr Sarkozy said.

To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure I agree with this law, because some women want to wear it by choice, but I think it's good to try because some women are still forced to wear the burka and being "abused".
The Muslim population is huge in France, but only Several hundreds women are estimated to wear the burka. That's a proportion that's way lower than in Muslim country. Never asked yourself why? Because MOST of them don't want to wear it.

[anonymously]

Originally Posted by juliensimon

How can you be civilized when you are only allowed to see the world through a mesh and not allowed to talk to other people?

So is it better for them not to appear at all in public, which many men with this mindset will make happen if women cannot go out in burkas?

[juliensimon]

Originally Posted by anonymously

So is it better for them not to appear at all in public, which many men with this mindset will make happen if women cannot go out in burkas?

no, not really. But you have to start somewhere. They still need their wife to get out to go buy groceries, get the kids at school etc. Men who force their wife to wear the burka wouldn't do such "chores".

One question for you and strongy because criticizing is easy, coming up with solution is something else:

What would YOU do, if you were the president?

[StrongInTheArm]

Originally Posted by juliensimon

Because surely, women who are not allowed to show an inch of their body in public will be allowed by their husband to vote on a referendum.
...

Sorry which women are we talking about here? I'm talking about the ones that vote at general elections via a secret ballot like the rest of the population. You know those elections where no one can tell who you voted for right?

I'm sure it is not beyond the French to organize one of those referendums, they just choose not to.

And don't be calling me a politician

Although you are on the right track I suspect, it is a matter of politics and has nothing to do with Muslims or what they choose to wear.

[juliensimon]

Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm

Sorry which women are we talking about here? I'm talking about the ones that vote at general elections via a secret ballot like the rest of the population. You know those elections where no one can tell who you voted for right?
I'm sure it is not beyond the French to organize one of those referendums, they just choose not to.

I'm sorry but I highly doubt that women who can't show their faces to the world would be allowed to vote by their over controlling husband. And what's the point asking other women?

But I guess it would be worth the try, at least to see how the rest of the population feels about it.

[StrongInTheArm]

Originally Posted by juliensimon

no, not really. But you have to start somewhere. They still need their wife to get out to go buy groceries, get the kids at school etc. Men who force their wife to wear the burka wouldn't do such "chores".

One question for you and strongy because criticizing is easy, coming up with solution is something else:

What would YOU do, if you were the president?

What! Me President of France? Old Nick Sarkozy? Well I wouldn't be messing about in politics that's for sure. I be locked up in the bedroom with my lovely wife and a foot tall box, that's what I'd be doing, make no bones about that.

But for a serious answer, it would seem to me that a great deal of education would be required for those on both sides of the issue. The French need to learn a little tolerance and understanding about Islam for one. Husbands need to learn what it means to live in a Western democracy and how to treat women properly. And their women need to learn how to stand up for their rights, their rights against their husbands and against the French government.

And while I'm at it, Le Penn needs to get his arse well and truly kicked, because pandering to semi-racist sentiments to keep political power is not leadership, it is just a form of cowardice. So I'd stand up for what is right and hope the French people would stand with me and not give in to their basest fears of the dreaded foreigner.

[StrongInTheArm]

OH, and I'd side with the UK about reforming the Common Agricultural Policy too!

And I'd stop nuclear testing outside the French mainland.

And as it happens that FOIE GRAS stuff sounds pretty inhuman if you ask me.

And stop all those French unions barricading the British every time they have a quarrel with the French government, that is just so unfair!

And I would insist the British return Arsene Wenger so he can manage the French national football team.

[juliensimon]

Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm

But for a serious answer, it would seem to me that a great deal of education would be required for those on both sides of the issue. The French need to learn a little tolerance and understanding about Islam for one. Husbands need to learn what it means to live in a Western democracy and how to treat women properly. And their women need to learn how to stand up for their rights, their rights against their husbands and against the French government.

It sounds nice but I doubt it would do anything. I think France went for the: "let's do something that's gonna piss some people off, but it's going to create a reaction and make things change" kind of strategy.

Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm

And while I'm at it, Le Penn needs to get his arse well and truly kicked, because pandering to semi-racist sentiments to keep political power is not leadership, it is just a form of cowardice.

no debate on Le Pen. He should have been forbidden to be a politician when he declared that the concentration camps never existed and were just an invention.

Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm

So I'd stand up for what is right and hope the French people would stand with me and not give in to their basest fears of the dreaded foreigner.

again, I really don't think it's about fear of the foreigner, being one of the last country in Europe to put "criteria" to select the immigrants (July 2006).
The UK, for example, had a "The Highly Skilled Migrant Programme (HSMP)" in place in January 2002.

[juliensimon]

Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm

OH, and I'd side with the UK about reforming the Common Agricultural Policy too!

And I'd stop nuclear testing outside the French mainland.

And as it happens that FOIE GRAS stuff sounds pretty inhuman if you ask me.

And stop all those French unions barricading the British every time they have a quarrel with the French government, that is just so unfair!

And I would insist the British return Arsene Wenger so he can manage the French national football team.

How is that related to the topic in any way?? so is it pointing fingers time I guess.

that reminds me why I usually stay out of the politics forum. I came here to get opinions on the topic. I end up feeling in court, judge for something I didn't do.
But I guess it's more fun the way right? Who wish to have a civilized conversation when we can attack each other?

[Muddy]

Will this battle of denial turn out like The Battle of De Nile? lol!

[juliensimon]

Originally Posted by Muddy

Will this battle of denial turn out like The Battle of De Nile? lol!

you emphasized my point with this battle analogy.

I should have know better by posting in the politics forum.

[StrongInTheArm]

Originally Posted by juliensimon

How is that related to the topic in any way?? so is it pointing fingers time I guess.

that reminds me why I usually stay out of the politics forum. I came here to get opinions on the topic. I end up feeling in court, judge for something I didn't do.
But I guess it's more fun the way right? Who wish to have a civilized conversation when we can attack each other?

Hey, come on! You asked me what I'd do if I were President! And you put no limits on the answer!!!

Originally Posted by juliensimon

no, not really. But you have to start somewhere. They still need their wife to get out to go buy groceries, get the kids at school etc. Men who force their wife to wear the burka wouldn't do such "chores".

One question for you and strongy because criticizing is easy, coming up with solution is something else:

What would YOU do, if you were the president?

[juliensimon]

Originally Posted by StrongInTheArm

Hey, come on! You asked me what I'd do if I were President! And you put no limits on the answer!!!

if you read the couple of sentence above (or even the whole thread), you could have easily figured out what I was talking about. You just decided to go the easy road with: "education" and point out unrelated stuff.

I guess I should have add: "What would you do, on that topic, if you were the president". I forgot that, as a good politician, you would play on the words to use that against me.

I am getting tired of this thread. It's getting no where, it's not constructive and way too aggressive for me. It look like a bunch of kids arguing, which was not my intent when starting the thread. Again, I should have known better posting in the politics forum.

This will be my last post in the politics forum.
I officially retire from this part of the forum.

Have fun

[StrongInTheArm]

Well since you don't like my words perhaps someone else's will do ...

Silence is safer than speech. (Epictetus)

Most conversations are simply monologues delivered in the presence of witnesses. (Margaret Millar)

The search for the truth is the most important work in the whole world, and the most dangerous. (James Clavell)

What is truth? I don’t know and I’m sorry I brought it up. (Edward Abbey)

If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail. (Abraham Maslow)

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will make me go in a corner and cry by myself for hours. (Eric Idle)

Those are my principles, and if you don’t like them… well, I have others. (Groucho Marx)

Tell me, what is my life without your love?
Tell me, who am I without you by my side?
(What is Life by George Harrison)

[John Scott]

Originally Posted by Allen Farlow

France is, well, France. But I can see their point. It is degrading, to them, but to the women who have grown up in that culture and wear burkhas all the time?

I still don't want to be a bank teller and have someone completely covered from head to toe walk up to me...or be a police officer looking at a photo on a drivers license and only see a couple small eyes.

But just as I have the right to dictate the rules in my home, countries have the same right. If you don't like it, you are free to leave.

And people of other countries and cultures moving to another country and trying to force their beliefs and culture on someone else is completely out of bounds as well.

So, yes, Governments should have the right to tell you what you can't wear. If they have to have their police enforce the law with fines and imprisonment, so be it.

Like I said, if you don't like it, you are free to leave.

This PC baloney is just that, a bunch of baloney.

Scary. Collectivism at its apex.

[antirem]

Im pissed about what france is doing. Im an atheist but my opinions should not dictate others and they should be able to do what they want.

[Atom]

I suppose you'd be able to tell which one was which after a while, if you paid strict attention.

[Muddy]

True, but boy that'd be difficult though.

[Atom]

Ok, women can wear those silly garments, but they'll need to be plainly numbered, and no switchies. Do we have a deal?