Cash for clunkers? NO! REFRIGERATORS!

[Allen Farlow]

Here goes another $300 million of American taxpayer money to subsidize the appliance industry...

Yet another in the line of Obama Giveaways.

Latest in Stimulus: 'Cash for Refrigerators'

By Matthew Boyle Matthew Boyle – 2 hrs 30 mins ago

A $300 million cash-for-clunkers-type federal program to boost sales of energy-efficient home appliances provides a glimmer of hope for beleaguered makers of washing machines and dishwashers, but it's probably not enough to lift companies such as Whirlpool (NYSE:WHR - News) and Electrolux out of the worst down cycle in the sector's history.

Beginning late this fall, the program authorizes rebates of $50 to $200 for purchases of high-efficiency household appliances. The money is part of the broader economic stimulus bill passed earlier this year. Program details will vary by state, and the Energy Dept. has set a deadline of Oct. 15 for states to file formal applications. The Energy Dept. expects the bulk of the $300 million to be awarded by the end of November. (Unlike the clunkers auto program, consumers won't have to trade in their old appliances.)

Full article here.

I just love helping pay for new appliances for millionaires...

[Natural Elements]

I see that Allen, it is incredible to know that all these programs are just creating injustice to promote some sectors and not all.

In fact it is too little to boost an economy in free fall.

[Zap]

Would you guys prefer it if the government just sat back and did nothing?

[Natural Elements]

Originally Posted by Zap

Would you guys prefer it if the government just sat back and did nothing?

I would prefer to pay less taxes

[Bernard]

Originally Posted by Zap

Would you guys prefer it if the government just sat back and did nothing?

This is almost always preferred for any issue.

[Allen Farlow]

Zap, if this is the best they can do, then the answer to that would be a profound Yes! I really would prefer they do nothing if they can do no better. These stupid little deals are worthless! They provide no long-term solutions, only small, short-term gains for certain industries. Perhaps Obama thinks the American public will take this as a sign he is doing something? BAH! IT'S WHITEWASH! WE ARE NOT FOOLED!

What's next, Cash For Clunker Tennis Shoes?! We all know how the Chinese shoe industry is hurting...(severe sarcasm intended.)

These 'Cash' deals are nothing but a scam upon American taxpayers. I better look up Scam in the dictionary and see if Obama's picture is next to the definition...

For someone who can stand so straight, Obama sure is appearing to be crooked.

[Zap]

Originally Posted by Natural Elements

I would prefer to pay less taxes

That's never going to happen. Taxes only go in one direction... up.
At least this money isn't going to big corporations. It's going to average, working class people.

Originally Posted by Allen Farlow

Zap, if this is the best they can do, then the answer to that would be a profound Yes! I really would prefer they do nothing if they can do no better. These stupid little deals are worthless! They provide no long-term solutions, only small, short-term gains for certain industries. Perhaps Obama thinks the American public will take this as a sign he is doing something? BAH! IT'S WHITEWASH! WE ARE NOT FOOLED!

Granted... This is not going to help your economy do a 180. But every little bit helps.
And it isn't for millionaires. They typically don't give a hoot about $200 rebates.
But your average American might buy a washer or fridge or dishwasher if they got a rebate on it.
It's not the solution, but maybe a small part of one?

Originally Posted by Allen Farlow

What's next, Cash For Clunker Tennis Shoes?! We all know how the Chinese shoe industry is hurting...(severe sarcasm intended.)

Maybe not tennis shoes, but what about other products that ARE still made in America?
This money is already earmarked. So why not put it into the hands of the people who gave it to the government in the first place?
The money has already been taken from you. This is an opportunity to get some of it back, while trying to inject a little sizzle into the economy.

[Natural Elements]

You are kidding right? Where do you think the money goes? Clunkers to help big corporations, and do you think that companies building or reparing roads and bridges are not corporations?

Nothing is going to the middle class people, or small companies, only more taxes to pay, more fees from bankers, etc

[Zap]

Originally Posted by Natural Elements

You are kidding right? Where do you think the money goes? Clunkers to help big corporations, and do you think that companies building or reparing roads and bridges are not corporations?

Nothing is going to the middle class people, or small companies, only more taxes to pay, more fees from bankers, etc

No. I'm not kidding. Did you even read the article?

Beginning late this fall, the program authorizes rebates of $50 to $200 for purchases of high-efficiency household appliances.

These rebates will help families make the transition to more efficient appliances, making purchases that will directly stimulate the economy," Energy Secretary Steven Chu said in a statement announcing the plan. Only appliances covered by the Energy Star seal will qualify. In 2008, about 55% of newly produced major household appliances met those standards, which are set by the Energy Dept. and Environmental Protection Agency.

These rebates are for the purchase of high efficiency appliances. The money goes directly into the pockets of the people who purchase those appliances.

We're not talking about bridges and roads or corporations here, NE. Average people who buy and use appliances in their homes.

Seriously... Did you post in the wrong thread or something?

[HiVelocity]

maybe one of these day they will offer cash bonuses to guys who find wives that are "green" and more energy efficient

[Natural Elements]

No I didn't post on the wrong thread, clunkers, bailouts, etc are the identical policies of the administration spending the taxpayers money.

Average people who buy and use appliances in their homes? That's just a big joke when you read the technical performance and how much an energy star appliance is rated compared to a regular one, the consumption is almost the same.

It is not only dishonest to, but a waste of taxpayers money one more time.

That's never going to happen. Taxes only go in one direction... up under which political party? A socialist one... I bet

[Zap]

Originally Posted by Natural Elements

No I didn't post on the wrong thread, clunkers, bailouts, etc are the identical policies of the administration spending the taxpayers money.

Yes. In this case, giving the taxpayers money back to the taxpayer in the form of rebates for items that almost every single taxpayer uses. (washers, dishwashers, dryers, fridges)

Originally Posted by Natural Elements

Average people who buy and use appliances in their homes? That's just a big joke when you read the technical performance and how much an energy star appliance is rated compared to a regular one, the consumption is almost the same.

Not so.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...111600644.html

How much energy can you save with an appliance that meets the government's Energy Star guidelines?

It depends on where you start. That is, it depends on the age of the appliance you are replacing and how much energy it uses.

But it's a sure bet that you will be saving more energy than is indicated on the yellow Energy Guide labels you see in appliance stores or the product lists on the Energy Star Web site, http://www.energystar.gov. That's because the Energy Star ratings compare a new Energy Star model to a new standard model, not to older ones like those in your kitchen and laundry room.

For example, a 2007 Energy Star refrigerator uses at least 15 percent less energy than a standard one, as you will note when you peruse the showroom floor. But the average American household replaces its refrigerator about every 14 years, so a more accurate calculation for you would be to compare the 1993 standard to the current Energy Star one.

Using an 18-cubic-foot freezer-refrigerator, a fairly common size, as a basis for comparison, a new Energy Star model would use about 30 percent less energy than the 1993 standard model. But many families have refrigerators that are much older than that and still going strong. No one pays much attention to how much electricity these old models consume, but it is astounding when compared with the latest Energy Star models.

15% on a brand new model comparison is nothing to sneeze at and that is a comparison of two brand new appliances. The one in your home that's 10 years old or more is not going to compare as well.

Originally Posted by Natural Elements

It is not only dishonest to, but a waste of taxpayers money one more time.

Why is it a waste of taxpayer money to give that money back to the taxpayer.
Please explain that logic to me.

Originally Posted by Natural Elements

That's never going to happen. Taxes only go in one direction... up under which political party? A socialist one... I bet

Don't you know the game by now? Taxes go up in all governments. Why would the next government take less money from you when they can continue to take the same amount of money and blame the increases on the last government?

[Bernard]

Originally Posted by Zap

Why is it a waste of taxpayer money to give that money back to the taxpayer.

If the idea is to let people use their own money, the government should not be taking it in the first place.

This rebate program is merely diverting capital that could be used for productive ends to non-productive use. It is a destruction of useful capital. But hey, it buys votes from the proletariat.

[Natural Elements]

Most of energy star appliances cost $300 or more to save $30 a year, and you will need at least many years before you can start saving money. That just one more propaganda.

Light bulbs energy star are so green and so great that they all contain mercury (poison), come one Zap, you should know better that the green propaganda is a powerful way to make money off of the people.

If it is not broke don't fix it

[Zap]

Originally Posted by Natural Elements

Most of energy star appliances cost $300 or more to save $30 a year, and you will need at least many years before you can start saving money. That just one more propaganda.

Where are you getting your facts and figures from?

From the link above...

Trading in your old beauty for a new Energy Star model would make such a dent in your utility bill that the new one could pay for itself in one or two years. When I replaced my 24-year-old side-by-side refrigerator three years ago, my monthly electric bill went down by $100.

Compared with the washer you bought in 1995, a 2007 Energy Star conventional top-loader uses about 40 percent less energy and about 25 percent less water. The 2007 Energy Star wash-plate top-loader uses about 60 percent less energy and about 30 percent less water. The 2007 Energy Star front-loader uses about 75 percent less energy and about 60 percent less water.

Besides... IMO, this thread is less about energy savings and more about taxpayer dollars and I still say that giving taxpayers their money back is a good idea.

[Natural Elements]

Originally Posted by Zap

Where are you getting your facts and figures from?

From the link above...

Besides... IMO, this thread is less about energy savings and more about taxpayer dollars and I still say that giving taxpayers their money back is a good idea.

If you want the facts just read the specifications from the manufacturers and compare the energy star appliances with the others, I did that 5 years ago when we bought our house, and it took me several weeks to buy all the appliances.

Why do we need to give away taxes for Stimulus: 'Cash for Refrigerators'
when the economy crisis put family in the streets?

I would be much happier if this money was intended to be spent for good causes and help families taking the heat by providing food, clothing, and shelter.

[Zap]

Originally Posted by Natural Elements

If you want the facts just read the specifications from the manufacturers and compare the energy star appliances with the others, I did that 5 years ago when we bought our house, and it took me several weeks to buy all the appliances.

I have read the specs. Remember, NE, the comparisons are comparing new models. (A brand new energy star model compared to a brand new non-energy star model)
The appliances we have in our homes are not new. (Usually, significantly older)
As such, they are nowhere near the efficiencies of even the non-energy star models. There's a great descrepancy there and an opportunity to cut down on your energy bills month after month.
We moved into our current home about 3 years ago. Since then, I've replaced the furnace, the air conditioner, 2 fridges, a stove and the hot water heater. Each time, I did my homework. With the water heater, we went tankless. Expensive up front, but the savings on the gas bill will pay for it.
And, energy prices keep going up, not down. That means the savings will increase over time.

[Allen Farlow]

Zap, this is part of a post I just made in the thread Recovery Won't Improve Unemployment:

"At the same time, the continuing stresses on the economy have, in effect, increased the size of the stimulus package because the government will have to spend more in unemployment insurance and food stamps, Orszag said. He said the cost of the stimulus package — which spends most of its money in fiscal year 2010 — will grow by tens of billions of dollars above the original $787 billion."

So there you go, the true costs of a stimulus bill are more than what we are told.

I am not going to pay more (and believe me, they will be priced higher than regular refrigerators) for an Energy Star fridge just to save a few bucks a month on my electric bill! No Way!

And neither will the majority of Americans.

Where exactly will these so-called Energy Star fridges come from? Made in America? I seriously doubt that.

And what is actually Made In America any more? If it is still made here, chances are way too good that the raw materials (sheet steel for refrigerators and stoves) were imported from Asia.

So when Americans fall for this BS and buy those Energy Star appliances, the money still ends up going overseas and Americans once again get screwed, all thanks to Obama's wonderful plan to help America...

These little stimulus bills (corporate handouts) are costing us a lot more than we are being told!

All this is is a rip-off of the American taxpayer and it is not doing one thing to help us.

[Natural Elements]

Originally Posted by Allen Farlow

Zap, this is part of a post I just made in the thread Recovery Won't Improve Unemployment:

"At the same time, the continuing stresses on the economy have, in effect, increased the size of the stimulus package because the government will have to spend more in unemployment insurance and food stamps, Orszag said. He said the cost of the stimulus package — which spends most of its money in fiscal year 2010 — will grow by tens of billions of dollars above the original $787 billion."

So there you go, the true costs of a stimulus bill are more than what we are told.

I am not going to pay more (and believe me, they will be priced higher than regular refrigerators) for an Energy Star fridge just to save a few bucks a month on my electric bill! No Way!

And neither will the majority of Americans.

Where exactly will these so-called Energy Star fridges come from? Made in America? I seriously doubt that.

And what is actually Made In America any more? If it is still made here, chances are way too good that the raw materials (sheet steel for refrigerators and stoves) were imported from Asia.

So when Americans fall for this BS and buy those Energy Star appliances, the money still ends up going overseas and Americans once again get screwed, all thanks to Obama's wonderful plan to help America...

These little stimulus bills (corporate handouts) are costing us a lot more than we are being told!

All this is is a rip-off of the American taxpayer and it is not doing one thing to help us.

It is always easier to spend the money of others (taxpayers money or overseas money that will cost us more with the interests), and put that for the next administration to handle. That just the way politics works, then the next administration will say "look see what the last administration did) and so on.

People will have no choice to pay more and more taxes. What are we leaving for the next generations? Dettes, bigger deficits, etc?

That's completely foolish!

[Brandon Sheley]

my 2 cents about why going green is a good thing... we've always bought energy efficient appliances when we needed a new one
one deep freeze, dishwasher an electric stove and a washer/dryer
When you look at the 250$ dishwasher, and you look at the 350$ dishwasher ofcourse your going to compare all the specs.
To us, it's always been a better idea to get energy efficient everything if it needed to be replaced..

If anything else, well feel better about the ground we're leaving for our children.. we also recycle our cans, plastic and cardboard it's really cut down on the amount of trash we have picked up each week