Can Rapists Be Rehabilitated?

[John Scott]

Originally Posted by Cricket

Actually if you read the articles I referenced and quoted earlier you will find that Vermont is believed to have the most sophisticated and successful rehab program anywhere in the country and provide statistics that while certainly better, still don't leave me wanting one of these guys living nearby.

I think Denmark did a better job. They used to -perhaps still do - chemically alter the testosterone levels of all violent convicts, not just rapists, as a condition of early release.

If you want out early, you have to agree to it, and it seems to work. I find it offensive, but it does seem to work.

[Zap]

Originally Posted by Cricket

Actually if you read the articles I referenced and quoted earlier you will find that Vermont is believed to have the most sophisticated and successful rehab program anywhere in the country and provide statistics that while certainly better, still don't leave me wanting one of these guys living nearby.

I read them, but I'm not convinced either.
The one article that actually even addresses rehabilitation in any real sense, then goes on to talk about a case where a man was "rehabilitated" and released in December 2006. The guy was released less than 3 years ago. Will he reoffend? I think it's too early to tell.
Further, they don't even detail what "treatment" was given as part of this rehabilitation program. They go as far as to call it "treatment" and that's it.

Your point about getting to our kids early is well taken. And, I will certainly do that on a number of different fronts. But a lot of "parents" these days, can't be bothered with parenting. It's too much work. And, god forbid, someone talks to a child about things like sexual education or rape or respect for all life or any number of other "touchy" subjects before they've had a chance to experience them in the real world. We live in a society of conveniences and latch key kids and the hard work of parenting doesn't always get pencilled into the schedule.

[John Scott]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...&hl=en&view=2#

[Cricket]

Originally Posted by John Scott

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...&hl=en&view=2#

Although I find the video very interesting, I do have some serious reservations.

(1) How many of those prisoners have been convicted of a violent rape?

(2) As sad as it is to bring up economics, the total size of this program is 86 inmates. Here in San Antonio we have somewhere between 400-600 forcible rapes every year. These numbers do not include "statutory rape", or underage consensual sex. We are strictly looking at forcible rapes.

Not only do I not see it being economically feasible, I have extreme reservations about giving these criminals a better lifestyle than many of their victims.

(3) In closing, I don't know the answers. I do know this though, far too many are released to repeat their crimes over and over, and that statistically the crime escalates, often to murder. Is that what we are waiting for before we say that they just don't have rights beyond food, clothing, and a roof over their heads in prison?

[Cricket]

P.S. I find it sad that many underprivileged kids would benefit by this program to PREVENT them from ever getting into trouble to begin with. The inmates (in the video above) are living a better lifestyle than much of South San Antonio. Almost feels as if their prisoners are being rewarded.

[John Scott]

Originally Posted by Cricket

P.S. I find it sad that many underprivileged kids would benefit by this program to PREVENT them from ever getting into trouble to begin with. The inmates (in the video above) are living a better lifestyle than much of South San Antonio. Almost feels as if their prisoners are being rewarded.

Same here. It's insulting to the victims, to reward the criminals like that.

[Cricket]

Originally Posted by John Scott

Same here. It's insulting to the victims, to reward the criminals like that.

I was curious what our children think about these types of issues, their thoughts from their perspectives. My daughter had some interesting insight that made me think.

"Y'all are waiting far too long to intervene Mama. The same kids that are getting into trouble in high school right now, were doing so by 2nd grade. How come someone didn't intervene when they were cruel to stray dogs at 5 years old? Or, burned the neighbors fence down just for fun at 8 years old? Or, didn't have "normal" schoolyard scuffles but actually wrapped their hands around someone's throat by 9 years old? I bet we can almost pinpoint the kids today that will one day be in prison."

[Cricket]

*wondering if our children are way smarter than we are . . .

[Allen Farlow]

The inventor of the geodesic dome, Buckminster Fuller, once theorized that children are born geniuses, who are quickly de-geniused by learning from those around them...

[robjones]

It is interesting to see how a guy can commit socially unacceptable actions today and society acts as if he has a disease. A politician or TV personality of stature gets caught cheating on his wife... he goes to "rehab". Apparently he isnt a slimy lying weasel that thought a hot 25 year old was preferable to monogamy with his wife, he is simply a victim, he has a sexual addiction. Gotta love it, today even the offenders are "victims".

Don't get me wrong, I find sex as addicting as anything else I've done, and hot 25 year olds with low necklines and lower morals really are infinitely more exciting than monogamy. I'm pretty sure there isn't a rehab program that'll change that. I'm a guy. Deep down, we're all shallow. I also accept that society has repercussions for certain behaviors and as a general rule they arent near as appealing as avoiding those repercussions.

Bottom line, most of our problems are with people that don't find the repercussions for bad behavior to be especially daunting because they have colored outside the lines and gotten away with it all their life. Being a responsible member of society becomes a habit if you're raised with the practice. We'd all like to have ALL the money at the bank rather than just the part we put in, but we were taught as kids that we don't get to take what belongs to others. OK, *most* are taught that, the others rob banks or get elected to the Senate.

Rape is a behavior, an *action*, not an addiction or an illness, although it no doubt is a very convenient excuse. It is the act of someone that isnt adequately socialized, he doesnt care to follow the rules. He made a choice to do what he did, the laws of society are for *other* people. After all "she was asking for it".

Those that don't follow the most basic laws of society do not deserve the privilege of remaining free in it. I dont give a rats petoot about rehabilitating them. If someone raped my daughter he'd best quickly turn his butt in to the police before I find him, cause jail doesnt suck near as much as bleeding out after having the offending organ removed.

Is jailing them punishment? Sure. Nothing wrong with punishing them. No idea why that's treated as a dirty word. If they dont wanna get punished, don't do it. Easy concept. They should be glad to have incarceration instead of justice. "Justice" would be turning them over to the family of the victim.

Incidentally, if I were going to suggest a remedy, make the sentence on a first offense incarceration, and a sentence for a repeat offense castration. Cruel and unusual punishment? Nope, just making the sentence fit the crime. "Cruel" is what we inflict on the victims by allowing repeat offenders to do it again.

[Zap]

Nothing wrong with a punishment that fits the crime, Rob, but wouldn't you also want to try to correct the behaviour?
I know they sometimes call prisons "correctional facilities" but we both know that's not what's going on inside them.
So, we're left with pretty much guaranteeing that a first offence will eventually lead to castration.

Now I ask you, if it were your son who had committed the rape, (I know, never gonna happen, but humour me for a moment) wouldn't you want him to have a fighting chance at redemption?

[robjones]

As we discussed, the problem is that these guys aren't taught to follow rules as kids, so it's a moot point. My kid got to USMC boot camp and literally laughed at the guys around him that thought the sergeant was being tough on them. He'd grown up knowing rules are rules and actions have consequences. It wasnt a new concept to him. If he raped and then raped again he'd know damned well that *I* would cut his nuts off.

This isnt the only thread about social issues that came full round to parenting. I dont claim to have been a perfect parent, and I assure you my kids will swear in court to the contrary, but so many of our societal problems go back to this point. If we raise kids that think actions dont have consequences we do them no favor.

Based on past posts of yours I think we agree on early socialization being the root of many issues... we just disagree on implementation methods and how we deal with it when kids get past that point without getting the message. On implementation, my preferred method remains giving a clear rule with clear consequences... then sticking to it consistently. That works for kids and it works for adults too. We just fail in that respect with our current implementation. Still if my car doesnt start I dont question the theory of internal combustion, I just wonder what part needs to be brought to spec.

Punishment for failure to follow should be consistent whether the offender is the son of a sharecropper or a captain of industry. Is that the case now? No. People that were permissive idiots as parents are still permissive idiots when the kids become young adults. "Justice" becomes a travesty of itself, a commodity that can be bought on the open market . I'd argue for more consistency of punishment, not compassion. In the long run compassion has the effect of being uncompassionate to future victims.

To give you a concrete example...
I know many people on this earth that would no longer be here if Texas wasnt known for being tough on murderers. Other states want to abolish the death penalty, ours is trying to add an express line. Do I avoid taking people that frankly the world could do without from their spot in the gene pool because I'm virtuous or compassionate? Naah. I do it because the alternative is a long prison sentence that'd likely end with lethal injection. I'm just a gun-toting redneck, not a DUMB gun-toting redneck.

If not for stringent enforcement of that basic law you'd need a thread titled "Can Rob be Rehabilitated".

[anonymously]

Bottom line, most of our problems are with people that don't find the repercussions for bad behavior to be especially daunting because they have colored outside the lines and gotten away with it all their life.

Problem for me is that the case I was closest to, in that I knew the guy pretty well, this was not true at all. He had pretty well lived within the law, but for a couple of very minor skirmishes that any of us could have had.

He was a good looking guy, no problems with getting girlfriends and having sex with them. This seemed an inexplainable action. Many years after his conviction I was a little taken aback when it was announced on national radio that a dangerous rapist had escaped from prison and then put his name on that person.

It seems to me that some rapists can be changed, problem is how do we know which is which and how do we trust them again anyway? Isn't it like do we ever trust paedophiles near our kids, even if they seem reformed?

Cricket you redefined what you meant by rapist into violent rape. Interesting that in a way we all do that, rape is not something in a domestic context, is too easy for us to think. Rape is really about someone having a knife at their throat is an easy trap that we often fall into. But perhaps the kind of rape committed may offer some clues as to if rehabilitation is possible, that does not undermine the action, but accepts different motivation and therefore accepts that some rapists can be rehabilitaed and some not.

But for sure it seems to me that unless we do seriously try to reform these characters they should be kept under strict supervision, prison or something else, because they will re-offend if we simply use prison as a deterrent. But I guess the significant question I also raised earlier, can we ever really trust them again, whatever treatment or whichever professional says they are now safe for society?

Originally Posted by robjones

"Can Rob be Rehabilitated".

Definitely NO

[Allen Farlow]

There's a guy in the news right now who lives in Cleveland, Ohio. He was convicted of rape back in '89 or so and was sentenced to 15 years behind bars.

He served his time and was released back into society in 2005.

There's a sausage company right next to the house he's been living in and the neighbors complained of bad smells. The owner thought it might be her sewer, so she had her sewer pipes dug up and replaced.

Problem was, that wasn't where the smell was coming from. It was coming from the (so far) ten dead women's bodies found inside the house...police are still digging...(they also found a skull wrapped in paper in a bucket in the basement...victim number 11?)

He just made his appearance in court and the judge said no bail. Good move.

So what will they do with this catastrophe of a human now?

Rehab? How's about a piano wire around the neck?

It's a shame a member of the original victim's family wasn't sitting across the street from the prison with a sniper rifle the day he got out. The actions of one person could have saved the lives of at least ten different women, not to mention all the grief their families have gone through not knowing where they are and now even more grief once identification is finished. But who could know that ahead of time?

I like those New York City folks. If they get even a rumor that you raped one of their sisters, you're a dead man. They will hunt you down, gang-assault you and give you the beating of your life.

I think that if they changed the penalty for rape to automatic death, a lot of guys would think twice about it. But that still wouldn't stop it because there are people out there who just can't control themselves. Rehab doesn't work for everyone.

So, if we could, would you agree that anyone convicted of rape should be sentenced to the death penalty?

I think that would be a good thing. Sure, a few innocent individuals will be kicked out of here a bit earlier than they should be but hey, at least we get all the bad guys...

...and if men knew they'd get the death sentence if convicted of rape, no ifs, ands or buts about it, maybe they'd tread a bit more carefully in the dating scene and treat women with a little more respect.

[robjones]

If you freeze-branded a big R on their cheek after the first offense it'd sure make it easier for society to deal with them carefully. I know... there's gonna be a portion of society that feels this is "harsh". "Why should we make him suffer for the rest of his life for one mistake".

To them I say... Pushing on a door marked 'Pull' is a mistake. Assaulting a girl is a felony. Learn the difference.

[Allen Farlow]

Forget freeze-dried. They deserve to feel real pain. Just git a campfire going and set the irons in it.

I still say death is a suitable punishment for first offense rapists. There never would be a second offense...


Article about the Ohio rapist here.

[mr.joebert]

The only way you're going to rehabilitate rapists is to clean them up and make them presentable as far as the dating scene goes.

Rapists aren't always nasty guys who rape people simply because they can't get a date. Some rapists have families, and are otherwise presentable people.

The thing is, there's a huge psychological difference between the rapist who rapes because their reproductive instincts override their sense of empathy, and the rapist who does it for the power trip.

If you clean up the rapist who rapes out of necessity, you've taken away their incentive to rape. Though, given that they're pretty much forever marked as a rapist, this point is rather moot, which could introduce a new incentive to rape. It becomes rehabilitating society in terms of the individual at this point, which is a dangerous proposition.

There is no hope for the rapist who does it for a feeling of power. Even if they were prevented from raping again, these individuals are eventually going to abandon all sense of empathy once more and do something equally or more horrific.

[Allen Farlow]

I'm not for 'cleaning up' ANY rapist!

Anyone who has the disgusting nerve to even do it once should be strung up from a tree and shot.

On the spot.

[robjones]

Next on Oprah: Rapist Makeovers....

• PRIOR VICTIM #1: "Oh... now THAT's more like it. I'd do him without the knife to my throat this time!"
  .
• OPRAH: "You go girl! How bout it ladies... can this guy get laid without brute force now or what?
  .
• AUDIENCE: *scattered applause, some murmers of approval*
  .
• PRIOR VICTIM #2: "I dunno... can you do something different with the hair? And that chin beard is kinda 1995."

[Allen Farlow]

Sorry, but I don't know any woman who would want to date a guy after learning he's a rapist, rehabb'd or not.

Dress a pig in heels, it's still a pig...