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Old 11-30-2009, 09:26 AM
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Merry Christmas?

I got this in an email this morning, author is unknown. Take it for what it's worth.

Twas the month before Christmas
When all through our land,
Not a Christian was praying
Nor taking a stand.

See the PC Police had taken away,
The reason for Christmas - no one could say.
The children were told by their schools not to sing,
About Shepherds and Wise Men and Angels and things.

It might hurt people's feelings, the teachers would say
December 25th is just a ' Holiday '.
Yet the shoppers were ready with cash, checks and credit
Pushing folks down to the floor just to get it!

CDs from Madonna, an X BOX, an I-pod
Something was changing, something quite odd!
Retailers promoted Ramadan and Kwanzaa
In hopes to sell books by Franken & Fonda.

As Targets were hanging their trees upside down
At Lowe's the word Christmas - was no where to be found.
At K-Mart and Staples and Penny's and Sears
You won't hear the word Christmas; it won't touch your ears.

Inclusive, sensitive, Di-ver-si-ty
Are words that were used to intimidate me.
Now Daschle, Now Darden, Now Sharpton, Wolf Blitzen
On Boxer, on Rather, on Kerry, on Clinton !

At the top of the Senate, there arose such a clatter
To eliminate Jesus, in all public matter..
And we spoke not a word, as they took away our faith
Forbidden to speak of salvation and grace

The true Gift of Christmas was exchanged and discarded
The reason for the season, stopped before it started.
So as you celebrate 'Winter Break' under your 'Dream Tree'
Sipping your Starbucks, listen to me.

Choose your words carefully, choose what you say
Shout MERRY CHRISTMAS ,not Happy Holiday !
Please, all Christians join together and wish everyone you meet
MERRY CHRISTMAS! - Christ is The Reason for the Christ-mas Season!
If you agree please forward, if not, simply delete.
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Old 11-30-2009, 05:27 PM
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I would like to see the day when how we wish each other a joyful day doesn't much matter, when no one gets offended if we say the wrong words, or call something by the wrong name. We just take the wishes as intended, and enjoy life without all the drama.

Just my 2 cents . . .
 
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Old 11-30-2009, 06:14 PM
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Being Muslim (the non extremist kind!) I don't see any problem with people wishing others a Merry Christmas. I even wish my Christian friends a Merry Christmas every year and visit them at their homes. I think it's just an overreaction by some people. Yes, it's a Christian holiday, so? It's a time where people get to enjoy themselves and have a nice day/evening with their loved ones and friends.

This Christmas, I'll be heading out to the city with my friends (who are Taoist, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim and Christian) to have fun and wish almost everyone we see a Merry Christmas.

Seriously, I think some people just overreact to the smallest things.
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Old 11-30-2009, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by socks View Post
Being Muslim (the non extremist kind!) I don't see any problem with people wishing others a Merry Christmas. I even wish my Christian friends a Merry Christmas every year and visit them at their homes. I think it's just an overreaction by some people. Yes, it's a Christian holiday, so? It's a time where people get to enjoy themselves and have a nice day/evening with their loved ones and friends.

This Christmas, I'll be heading out to the city with my friends (who are Taoist, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim and Christian) to have fun and wish almost everyone we see a Merry Christmas.

Seriously, I think some people just overreact to the smallest things.

So very well said, just enjoy the time together!
 
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Old 12-02-2009, 10:42 AM
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I agree. I'm White but that doesn't mean I can't tell my Black friends 'Happy Kwanzaa!"

But this is not just about living our lives and enjoying it. It's about our freedom and how we are losing it one little step at a time. (Put a frog in a pan of hot water and it will jump out. But put it in a pan of cool water, turn the burner on and slowly heat the water to boiling and the frog will stay there and boil to death.)

Having PC police ruling over every aspect of our daily lives, telling us what we can and can not teach our children is just going way overboard. The courts ruling that we can't place a manger scene on a courthouse lawn or we can't place The Ten Commandments on public property is just nuts!

The United States of America is still a Christian nation, isn't it?

I'm not against immigrants coming to the United States and getting ahead in life, I welcome them to do so (long as they do so legally), but I draw the line when they begin telling us how we must live in this Christian nation, how we can celebrate OUR holidays, what we can or can not wear in public, or how we should speak!

The United States is the United States of America, not the United States of anything else! We have strived to be a tolerant and welcoming nation, that's why immigrants are free to wear burkas on our streets, that's why they are free to build mosques and synagogs and worship how they please, without persecution.

But when we can't even greet someone with a simple "Merry Christmas" because someone might be offended? Have we lost all sense?

Tolerance works BOTH ways and it borders on a grave sin for people from other lands to come here and tell us how we are going to live! THAT offends ME!

Until we Americans stand our ground and tell our own twisted government that we will not put up with it, I think we only have ourselves to blame for allowing this to happen.

So on that note, MERRY CHRISTMAS to the American members of this forum (which is located in the United States of America), and if it offends you, I do NOT apologize!
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Old 12-02-2009, 03:21 PM
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Having PC police ruling over every aspect of our daily lives, telling us what we can and can not teach our children is just going way overboard . . .
No one is telling us what we can and cannot teach our children. We still have the freedom to choose to teach our own children our beliefs. In fact, in this country you can choose to teach your children at home or send them to the religious school of your choice. That does not give us the right to force our public school systems to teach our personal beliefs to other children who may or may not have those same beliefs.

In this wonderful country, I can go to the top of the highest mountain and yell across the valley MERRY CHRISTMAS if I want to, and I won't be arrested for sharing my beliefs. Similarly, Jewish people can scream Happy Hanukkah. And so on and so on. The United States is a wonderful melting pot of dreams, customs, beliefs, and religions. The best part about it? That it is okay!

That's not about being politically correct. It's about human goodness.
 
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Old 12-02-2009, 03:51 PM
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Allen, you make it sound as though all Americans are Christians and that the reasons for changing policy at public schools is only to appease foreigners.

I know many many Americans who aren't Christians and who couldn't give a hoot about Christmas.

It's about separating church from state, and affording all cultures the ability to celebrate their religions without forcing it upon others.

I'm in agreement though, that if anyone gets offended from being wished a Merry Christmas, then you should not feel the need to apologise! But hopefully, you won't get offended if some wishes you Eid Mubarak.
 
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Old 12-02-2009, 04:16 PM
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There are many groups in the U.S. who actively seek to determine what our children are taught in school. It's a well-known tactic: teach the children what we want them to learn and they'll grow up thinking what they are taught. That's how we can enact change in societal behavior.

Reminds me of school children being taught to sing songs that praise Obama...

It's not only political correctness. There's religious correctness, racial correctness, as well as product placement and advertising thrown in just for the heck of it.

But who is it that determines what is correct and what is not? Hmmm...who determines what our children read in these textbooks?

If you have children going to public schools, private schools or are home-schooling them using the standard textbooks found in most public schools, you may be doing your child a disservice:

The following is from 2003. This very subject of changing U.S. school textbooks to reflect a more politically-correct outlook has even been mentioned on news shows within the past two months. I heard it being talked about.

Textbook Changes Draw Charges of Political Correctness

Thursday, May 01, 2003

LOS ANGELES — A textbook review process taking place in states across the country has changed or eliminated references to everything from the Founding Fathers (search) to hot dogs, leaving many to charge educators with distorting history in the name of political correctness.

The review process, which is routinely done in many states, is meant to eliminate or replace outdated words or phrases. But what’s happening has a lot of people wondering – quite literally – "Where’s the beef?"

That’s because many textbooks will no longer feature pictures of hot dogs, sodas, cakes, butter and other kinds of food that are not considered nutritious. Nor will the books contain any phrases judged to be sexist or politically insensitive.

Full story here.

Here's something a bit more up-to-date:

Liberal Bias in U.S. History Textbooks?

Thursday, September 11, 2008

Think the history your kids are being taught in school is fair and balanced?

Think again says Larry Schweikart, University of Dayton professor and author of "48 Liberal Lies About American History (That You Probably Learned In School)."

Full story here.


Product Placements

In a McGraw-Hill textbook published in 1995 and revised in 1999, kids learn math courtesy of brand-name products. The book, Mathematics: Applications and Connections, asks students to "express the diameter of an Oreo cookie as a fraction" and calculate the surface area of a box of Cocoa Frosted Flakes. Lands End, the text reads, is where "Consumers can purchase unique clothing and accessories, and products for the home." Although McGraw-Hill lobbied (unsuccessfully) to defeat legislation in California outlawing brand names in textbooks, a spokesperson for the publisher denied any wrongdoing.

Texas!

To assure that history courses emphasize "our glowing and throbbing history of hearts," Texas established its own textbook committee in the early 1960s. Some of the more ambitious proposals brought forth by the committee have included a requirement that texts omit all references to Pete Seeger, Langston Hughes, and anyone else fingered by the House of Un-American Activities; and a bill requiring every public school teacher to swear his/her belief in a supreme being. In addition to the state efforts, citizens groups have pressured schools as well. One called Texans for America objected to a text that contained four pictures of George Washington that "lacked his familiar features of kindness and dignity." (The Texans also charged that the song "He’s Got the Whole World in His Hands" smacked of one-worldism.)

Through the combined efforts of the state government and right-wing crazies, textbooks have been transformed, as shown in these examples from a 1950s geography text, The American Continents:

Original version: "Today, other countries help us in protecting our land against possible attack. Radar listing posts . . ."

Changed to: "With radar we can quickly detect the approach of enemy aircraft or missiles."

Original version: "Because it needs to trade, and because it needs military help, the United States needs friendship of countries throughout the world. But, to keep its friends, a country must help them, too."

Changed to: "The United States trades with countries in all parts of the world. We are also providing military help to many nations. In addition, the United States aids many countries in other ways."

Original version: "It is often hard for people of different countries to understand each other. They come from different backgrounds. They eat different foods, wear different clothes, speak different languages. The United States sometimes finds it difficult to agree with its neighbors in all things. Nor do other countries always agree with us."

Changed to: "It is often hard for people of different countries to understand each other. They come from different backgrounds, wear different clothes, speak different languages. The people of some nations have forms of government different from ours. Often they do not enjoy the same freedom and opportunity as our people."

Texas’s textbook committee remains to this day. It has become so influential that it actually helps determine the texts used nationwide. Publishers have been known to print special Lone Star editions of American history.

The Wizard of Oz was objectionable to fundamentalists in Tennessee because it portrays a witch as good and because it says courage, compassion, and other traits are personally developed rather than God-given. (Los Angeles Times, 11/1/86)

Secular Humanism

Concern over "secular humanism" dates back to the 1950s, when Orthodox Catholics and Jews fought the increasing secularization of schools. However, these efforts were small potatoes compared to the cries of evangelical fundamentals in the late 1970s and 1980s.

In 1975, educational consultant Onalee McGraw, with the blessings of the conservative Heritage Foundation, published an article attributing lower test scores and the decline of quality public education to a lack of belief in God. His solution: eliminate humanism.

Whereas earlier movements took on particular schoolbooks or courses, the Bible-beating, humanist-fearing fundamentalists challenged the nature of public education itself. The reforms that progressives had introduced to improve learning were, for fundamentalists, part of the problem. The Moral Majority attacked not only multiculturalism and new math but unstructured academic approaches such as the open classroom and creative writing. Such open-ended methods, they argued, broke down the standards of right and wrong by asking questions without providing definite answers.

The fight over secular humanism came to a head in 1987, when a federal district judge in Alabama banned 44 history and home economics textbooks from the county’s public schools. The plaintiffs in the case successfully argued that education promoted humanism and that humanism was, for all practical purposes, synonomous with atheism. (As the defense suggested, by this definition, vegetarianism and psychoanalysis would also be religions.) The fundamentalist victory was short-lived, however; it was reversed by a federal appeals court later that year.

In the end, perhaps the worst part of the secular humanism debacle was that the fundamentalists were right (but for the wrong reasons). The textbooks were indeed objectionable. In fact, during the Alabama case, one of the key witnesses called by the state ended up supporting the opposition. Harvard psychiatrist Robert Coles was no friend of the censors, but after reviewing the textbooks, he pronounced them "pure psychological trash." For example, Cole pointed out a tenth-grade home economics book called Relationships, which discussed psychological character types. The "irrational-conscientious’’ type, for example, was described as having strong religious faith and as being "cold and unfeeling.’’ Their "repressed hostility makes them far too literal-minded and rigid in their righteousness.’’ (In the teacher’s guide, Jesus, Mohandas Gandhi, and Martin Luther are listed as examples.)

Even more glaring, some of these books portrayed an America stripped of its Christian past. In one book the Pilgrims are identified as "people who make long trips." The discussion of Thanksgiving neglected to mention who they were thanking. According to a New Republic writer, religious groups, if they were mentioned at all, were usually portrayed as the lunatic fringe. The index to the book Our Land, Our Time was typical: it listed "religious cults," but not "religion," "Christianity," "Catholicism," or "Judaism."

And on the left

In the 1960s, the NAACP, feminist groups, and other civil rights organizations stepped up efforts to police textbook content. Although the efforts to correct humiliating stereotypes and diversify perspectives were long overdue, the result of these efforts was a strict avoidance of what was deemed negative representation. So, for example, the word "darkie" was erased from Stephen Foster songs in school songbooks (so that Foster’s famous line, "Oh, darkies how my heart grows weary" was changed to "Oh, old folks . . ." or "Oh, brother . . ."). And the liberal use of "******" meant that Tom Sawyer had to go. Such an narrow view of history made it all the more difficult for African Americans–indeed, all Americans–to reckon with the deeply intrenched of racism in this country.

From http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/electroni...18/topten.html


Most parents in the U.S. have no idea what their children are being taught because they don't take the time to browse through their children's textbooks. The revision of American history is a dirty little secret that 'they' (the groups behind these changes) don't want us to know about.

Before we know it, American children will become adults who no longer believe in God and will completely shut out religion in favor of...

Your guess is as good as mine, and I doubt it will be favorable. I look at it as the continuation of the downfall of America.

The U.S, has been served well by our belief in God and our foundations being based upon religious principles for 233 years. There must be a reason for it and we must return to it before we are lost.

On a related note, did you know that John Adams and Thomas Jefferson, both signers of the Declaration of Independence, both died on the same day?

From 'Thomas Jefferson' by Edward S. Ellis:

"In the serene sunset of life, the "Sage of Monticello" peacefully passed away on the afternoon of July 4, 1826, and a few hours later, John Adams, at his home in Quincy, Mass., breathed his last. A reverent hush fell upon the country, at the thought of these two great men, one the author of the Declaration of Independence and the other the man who brought about its adoption, dying on the fiftieth anniversary of its signing, and many saw a sacred significance in the fact."

That's weird, huh?
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Old 12-02-2009, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by BeebleBerry View Post
Allen, you make it sound as though all Americans are Christians and that the reasons for changing policy at public schools is only to appease foreigners.
I believe that as our public schools bend over to kot-tow to immigrants and their religious beliefs, our religious ideals will be continually watered-down until we don't know right from wrong, and I think that is a mistake. Our children are the leaders of tomorrow. What will they have to believe in? What will they have to lead them? What will they have to fall back on when all else fails? That is the fundamental problem with melting pots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beebleberry
It's about separating church from state, and affording all cultures the ability to celebrate their religions without forcing it upon others.
Do you not think it is because of church that we have state in the U.S.? The U.S. was founded upon religious principles, yes? And have past presidents not gotten on their knees in times of doubt and asked for divine leadership? We in the U.S. are all free to worship as we see fit, yes, but if we lose our foundation will the house not crumble?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beebleberry
I'm in agreement though, that if anyone gets offended from being wished a Merry Christmas, then you should not feel the need to apologise! But hopefully, you won't get offended if some wishes you Eid Mubarak.
I've been wished that even though I am not a Muslim, and I certainly was not offended in the least. Why should I be?
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Last edited by Allen Farlow; 12-02-2009 at 04:31 PM.
 
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Old 12-02-2009, 04:46 PM
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I believe that as our public schools bend over to kot-tow to immigrants and their religious beliefs, our religious ideals will be continually watered-down until we don't know right from wrong, and I think that is a mistake. Our children are the leaders of tomorrow. What will they have to believe in? What will they have to lead them? What will they have to fall back on when all else fails?
I think you are way off base here, but that is my personal opinion. It is my responsibility as a parent to guide and teach my child the difference between right and wrong and to provide an environment that teaches her my faith in God. Who will lead them? How about parents and the church?
 
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Old 12-02-2009, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Allen Farlow View Post

Do you not think it is because of church that we have state in the U.S.? The U.S. was founded upon religious principles, yes? And have past presidents not gotten on their knees in times of doubt and asked for divine leadership? We in the U.S. are all free to worship as we see fit, yes, but if we lose our foundation will the house not crumble?
Wow fancy wanting to hold on to Christianity because otherwise the US might fall! I thought people held on to their faith because they believed in it.
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Old 12-03-2009, 01:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Allen Farlow View Post
I believe that as our public schools bend over to kot-tow to immigrants and their religious beliefs, our religious ideals will be continually watered-down until we don't know right from wrong, and I think that is a mistake. Our children are the leaders of tomorrow. What will they have to believe in? What will they have to lead them? What will they have to fall back on when all else fails? That is the fundamental problem with melting pots.
Why is it the responsibility of government to teach your children religious ideals? And why trust a school teacher to actually teach those ideals.?Even within Christianity there are different ideals and principles.

Guidance will be from community. Individuals will have their own strength and / or whatever religion they have accepted to help through difficult times etc.

Quote:
Do you not think it is because of church that we have state in the U.S.? The U.S. was founded upon religious principles, yes? And have past presidents not gotten on their knees in times of doubt and asked for divine leadership? We in the U.S. are all free to worship as we see fit, yes, but if we lose our foundation will the house not crumble?
Well, I don't know whether the requests for divine leadership actually helped any, but that's a whole other debate! The foundation needn't be religious principles - how about liberty, equality, and freedom to make up your own mind which religion to follow? You don't have to pray at school or state gatherings to be a Christian.

Rather have a schooling system which explains concepts and theories and have children be guided by their parents in terms of religion.

Take the theory of evolution for example. A school needn't not teach the theory, but rather explain that evolution is one theory, creation is another theory, and that some people have their own personal theories which unite these two theories. Don't teach which one is right or wrong - but just that they exist.

I sometimes think that it is precisely because America was been founded on Christian principles that people who don't see Christianity in schools now, feel threatened. If they were taught about strength in diversity and how to really accept, embrace and tolerate, and not be made to feel superior because they are Christians (and American), then perhaps they'd feel less threatened.

The very same reason Islamic countries feel threatened by things Western!

Quote:
I've been wished that even though I am not a Muslim, and I certainly was not offended in the least. Why should I be?
 
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Old 12-03-2009, 01:21 AM
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Oh... just to add MERRY CHRISTMAS
 
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Old 12-03-2009, 08:49 AM
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Religion and public schools should be separate until such a time as you can get everyone to agree on which religion to follow and, therefore, which religion to teach.
Does that mean that people should get upset at being wished a "Merry Christmas"? No.
People should lighten up. The sentiment is a nice one, even if it's not in line with your beliefs.

But there should be no mention of religion and/or god in public schools.
Not everyone believes in the same god, or even the existence of one.
 
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Old 12-03-2009, 09:23 AM
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But there should be no mention of religion and/or god in public schools.
Not everyone believes in the same god, or even the existence of one.
I think children should be taught at school that religions exist and that some people believe in a God, or Gods and that some don't.

Rather not shy away from the subject - religion exists so let children know about it, but don't indoctrinate, or idealise any of them. Just teach them about particular belief systems.
 
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Old 12-03-2009, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Zap
Religion and public schools should be separate ...
Everybody agrees on that, but liberals think that keeping them separate means that you prohibit children from praying, mentioning their religion, or wearing religious symbols on school property.

Some religious people think that amounts to persecution.
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Old 12-03-2009, 09:35 AM
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Being Muslim (the non extremist kind!) I don't see any problem with people wishing others a Merry Christmas. I even wish my Christian friends a Merry Christmas every year and visit them at their homes. I think it's just an overreaction by some people. Yes, it's a Christian holiday, so? It's a time where people get to enjoy themselves and have a nice day/evening with their loved ones and friends.

This Christmas, I'll be heading out to the city with my friends (who are Taoist, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim and Christian) to have fun and wish almost everyone we see a Merry Christmas.

Seriously, I think some people just overreact to the smallest things.
\

I am Hindu but i like Christmas very much. I decorate my tree and celebrate with my family.
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Old 12-03-2009, 09:43 AM
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Everybody agrees on that, but liberals think that keeping them separate means that you prohibit children from praying, mentioning their religion, or wearing religious symbols on school property.

Some religious people think that amounts to persecution.
I don't think everyone does agree on that. It seems like people expect public schools to hold a morning prayer, teach Christianity and to celebrate certain Christian holidays.

It's true that keeping them seperate does not mean the prohibition of practicing one's religion. And nobody should be persecuted for their belief system. So if you need to wear a yamuka or a St Christopher or cover your head, then you should be allowed to do that.
 
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Old 12-03-2009, 09:51 AM
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It seems like people expect public schools to hold a morning prayer
I know a lot of fundamentalists, and I know of none personally who would want a school official saying prayers. How would that even work? A Muslim school teacher saying Buddhist prayers? Sounds absurd.

The controversy I am aware of is the prohibiting of students praying.

Big difference.

Quote:
teach Christianity
LOL! Where do you find these freaks? Who is saying that public schools should teach Christianity?

Quote:
and to celebrate certain Christian holidays.
You mean Christmas? Yeah, that's really religious.

Quote:
So if you need to wear a yamuka or a St Christopher or cover your head, then you should be allowed to do that.
Or maybe just get rid of public schools altogether.
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Old 12-03-2009, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
Everybody agrees on that, but liberals think that keeping them separate means that you prohibit children from praying, mentioning their religion, or wearing religious symbols on school property.
I guess I'm not a liberal, then.
 
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