What Destroyed The World Trade Centers?

[notepad]

Originally Posted by Atom

" According to reports by workmen, they recovered molten steel in the basements. This was key evidence that had been found at a crime scene; yet it was literally stolen by the FBI and shipped immediately to Japan where it was hurriedly reconstituted at a scrap metal plant; nonetheless, it was seen by hundreds of workmen who had extracted it from the basement ruins. Physicists, fire engineers, and metallurgists all over the country were salivating over the chance to examine this extraordinary molten steel. These groups of scientists are uniformly furious at the White House for destroying such valuable evidence. The 9/11 official investigation managed to ignore such minor details."

The fact that there was MOLTEN steel found below the WTC Towers FIVE weeks after 911 proves that the government's "official" 911 Commission report was bogus ...jet fuel burning together with other debri CANNOT even can close to the temperatures required to melt steel into a liquid.

By the way, the molten steel issue along with THE LAW OF GRAVITY (which automaically refutes the "pancaking" theory by the "experts") were both conveniently avoided in the March 2005 Popular Mechanics magazine article.

[Ferre]

I have seen a website that gives a huge $$$ reward for anyone who can prove scientifical that the "official" version is correct. I lost the URL but I'm sure it is still out there, PM magazine could claim that money if their theory is really solid.

There has been some research in Spain by a university on the 9/11 event and according to that Spanish University (they also did special research on pictures and film from the event) there is a lot of fake evidence and lies from official sources. Funny that, only if you watch news in the English language you get all those crap lies and spin.

I think that a criminal investigation into the members of the 9/11 commission would be a good idea too btw.

[notepad]

Originally Posted by Ferre

I have seen a website that gives a huge $$$ reward for anyone who can prove scientifical that the "official" version is correct. I lost the URL but I'm sure it is still out there, PM magazine could claim that money if their theory is really solid.

There has been some research in Spain by a university on the 9/11 event and according to that Spanish University (they also did special research on pictures and film from the event) there is a lot of fake evidence and lies from official sources. Funny that, only if you watch news in the English language you get all those crap lies and spin.

I think that a criminal investigation into the members of the 9/11 commission would be a good idea too btw.

The guy who was offering the $ reward was Jimmy Walter of http://reopen911.org/. I think he still is. Walter has already spent millions of his own personal fortune publicizing the 911 atrocities and helping to spread the truth about that day's events.

by Jim Walter:
$100,000 REWARD to the first person to deliver a full mathematical, engineering proof of how the impact and/or fires caused any of the WTC buildings to collapse the way the government claims! It must include all the fuel, mass, critical temperatures, likely temperatures and their causes, energy needed to crush concrete into fine powder, force needed to sheer bolts and rivets, time calculations, and all the other relevant data in a detailed analysis to be reviewed by accredited engineers on a team headed by Jeff King, engineer and doctor educated at MIT.

You can see and hear more about Jim Walter here: http://reopen911.org/news_events.htm


Some news articles here:
http://inn.globalfreepress.com/modul...hp?storyid=999

http://www.infowars.com/articles/ps/...bush_admin.htm

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[Atom]

Originally Posted by Ferre

PM magazine could claim that money if their theory is really solid.

Good point.

I simply flat out refuse to overlook the fact that there are so many simple questions that have been put to the 911 commission that either went unanswered, or recieved impossible answers (lies), and thus my vote.

[notepad]

The government expects you to believe their "pancake theory" ...that the 110 story WTC Towers collapsed to the ground in less than 10 seconds due to the buildings' floors successively crashing down on each other and so on.

This is possible in cartoons, though not within the reality of physics and the law of gravity.

The fact that these massive buildings fell in less than 10 seconds each means that they encountered essentially no resistance from the supposedly undamaged parts of the structure.

Some people trying to use "common sense" without a knowledge of the laws of physics assume that the drop of one floor on top of another would make the towers fall faster and faster.

Wrong ...actually just the opposite ...more and more resistance would be encountered/added.

Instead of complicated physics and complex mathematics, if you calculate one second for each floor (fall-smash-fall-smash-fall-smash, etc.) to collapse X 110 floors, this equals 110 seconds, or 1 minute and 50 seconds ...or nearly two minutes for a WTC building to fall.

Divide that in half, say 1/2 second for each floor and it takes 55 seconds for the building to fall ...or about one minute. In both examples, one minute or two, either seems more likely for such gigantic buildings to fall.

However, in reality the WTC Towers fell in less than 10 seconds each ...as if there were no floors, no resistance, no structure at all between point A (the top) and point B (the ground).

This rate of fall, called free fall, is only possible when something falls through the air ...with air being the ONLY resistance. It is IMPOSSIBLE for 110 stories of structural mass to free fall (as if only through air) in less than 10 seconds ...that is, WITHOUT the help of explosives to precede the falling mass ...destroying each floor before the next ...as with controlled demolitions.

It's difficult to understand how anyone, even those with zero knowledge of physics can believe the government's pitch that a massive, 110 story office building can collapse down INTO itself in only 8.5 seconds without meeting any resistance from the UNDAMAGED building below.

Read: Twin Towers' Rate of Fall Proves Demolition

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[littleFella]

Originally Posted by notepad

Instead of complicated physics and complex mathematics, if you calculate one second for each floor (fall-smash-fall-smash-fall-smash, etc.) to collapse X 110 floors, this equals 110 seconds, or 1 minute and 50 seconds ...or nearly two minutes for a WTC building to fall.

Actually, the forces at work were very complicated so there is no simple formula to calculate the speed, velocity and accelleration of the falling debris. Those values will depend on many factors, such as the initial height and density of the material. A one ton steel beam will hit the ground much sooner than a pebble dropped from the same height, regardles of the friction of air. I believe those formulas were taught at grade 7 (at leat when I was at school), although admittedly, they were applicable to G-Force (9.81m/s^2, if I remember correctly) in vacuum spces.

Another problem with the veracity of your argument is the 110 stories of the buildings. This is misleading, since one of the buildings had a breaking point at about 1/2 of its height (i.e. approx. about 55 to 60 stories), the other was hit at about 70-something floor. Anything above does not count here.

Also, you need to consider the steel structure of the bulding, which on the one hand should indeed slow down the free fall of debris (as you correctly observed), but on the other, that same steel structure of the bulding was basically a solid steel cage. If you know anything about the conductivity of solid materials, then you will know that they conduct vibrations extremely efficiently. It is conceivable (but a proof would need complicated formulas) that the integrity of elements below currently falling structures were affected and substantially weakened before those elements came in visually preceived contact with what fell on them.

If the last is true, then it could be accepted that the observed speed of collapse (8.5 seconds) was possible. After all, the density of the material was sufficiently high to cause very high accelleration, i.e. with each passing moment the material was falling down at a faster rate than a moment before. Newton explained that well over 200 years ago.

These are just some observations on the arguments you presented in this regard. Of course mine don't disprove the explosives theory, although personally this isn't where I would look for a proof of government's conspiracy.

[notepad]

Originally Posted by littleFella

Actually, the forces at work were very complicated so there is no simple formula to calculate the speed, velocity and accelleration of the falling debris. Those values will depend on many factors, such as the initial height and density of the material. A one ton steel beam will hit the ground much sooner than a pebble dropped from the same height, regardles of the friction of air. I believe those formulas were taught at grade 7 (at leat when I was at school), although admittedly, they were applicable to G-Force (9.81m/s^2, if I remember correctly) in vacuum spces.

I agree that the collapses and their processes were complicated, however, there is indeed a formula to calculate the rate at which the WTC buildings fell.

It's called Galileo's Law of Falling Bodies.



According to "The Law of Falling Bodies" as originally put forward by Galileo and still accepted by all scientists (as described in the Work Book Encyclopedia under Falling Bodies, Law of) the total distance traveled at the end of any specific time in a total vacuum is calculated by this formula:

Distance (d) = (32.16/2) x Time in Seconds Squared.

If there is any resistance encountered (as in 1350 foot tall WTC buildings), then speed and time of the falling body slows down in relation to the resistance. Thus the time of approx 10 seconds for the Towers to collapse indicates the Towers fell at approx the rate objects descend in a vacuum with no resistance.

Originally Posted by littleFella

Another problem with the veracity of your argument is the 110 stories of the buildings. This is misleading, since one of the buildings had a breaking point at about 1/2 of its height (i.e. approx. about 55 to 60 stories), the other was hit at about 70-something floor. Anything above does not count here.

Just prior to the first collapse, the top of the South Tower tipped to 23 degrees, but then it suddenly stopped its angular momentum, changed direction and fell straight down. At this point the upper segment was hanging over the edge by approximately 65 feet.



The only way the momentum of the falling top could have been changed in mid-collapse was to blast away a portion of EACH of the 47 core columns, causing the building to fall uniformly into its own footprint. How the Towers fell is impossible according to the "official" story because the gravitational potential energy of a skyscraper is nowhere near sufficient to destroy its own frame.

Originally Posted by littleFella

Also, you need to consider the steel structure of the building, which on the one hand should indeed slow down the free fall of debris (as you correctly observed), but on the other, that same steel structure of the bulding was basically a solid steel cage.

Not exactly. Besides having an massive outer envelope with 236 large exterior steel columns (you call it a cage), the buildings also incorporated an enormous interior core (filled with concrete) which consisted of 47 huge steel core columns that were welded and bolted together with steel plates. Each pf these central core colums extended deep into the bedrock far below the Towers.



Furthermore, there were steel trusses which crisscrossed, making a mesh that connected every other exterior column ...along with diagonal bracing and steel rods connecting the trusses.



If the government's theory of pancaking (the floors crashing down upon each other and causing the Towers' collapse) was true & valid, then much like a phonograph record slides down a center spindle, there would have much of the central core remaining after such a "pancake collapse."

Instead, the entire Tower structures, including the central core, was reduced to a homogenous dust cloud and a pile of chopped up steel beams.

Originally Posted by littleFella

If you know anything about the conductivity of solid materials, then you will know that they conduct vibrations extremely efficiently. It is conceivable (but a proof would need complicated formulas) that the integrity of elements below currently falling structures were affected and substantially weakened before those elements came in visually preceived contact with what fell on them.

I know that both steel and concrete are superior conductors of heat. Vibrations are not the issue here (unless you want to discuss theory into alternative technological advancements, or vibration induced destruction of morphous materials).

As for conductivity of the solid materials in the WTC Towers, the solid steel columns and the buildings' concrete dissipated the jets' subsequent fuel fires and the heat generated locally quite quickly into other areas. This fact is supported by the people peering out of the building during the localized fires that burned elsewhere in the building.

Obviously these individuals were unaware they were touching molten steel!



Again, the gov's claim that the jet fuel fires reached temperatures high enough to melt steel is false

Originally Posted by littleFella

If the last is true, then it could be accepted that the observed speed of collapse (8.5 seconds) was possible. After all, the density of the material was sufficiently high to cause very high accelleration, i.e. with each passing moment the material was falling down at a faster rate than a moment before. Newton explained that well over 200 years ago.

These are just some observations on the arguments you presented in this regard. Of course mine don't disprove the explosives theory, although personally this isn't where I would look for a proof of government's conspiracy.

Yes it is possible that the buildings could have collapsed in under 10 seconds; in fact they did. However, since we're not living in a vacuum, it's safe to assume that the WTC Towers could not have collapsed into themselves, encountering MOUNTAINS of resistance, without something removing that resistance ...namely, explosives.

Not a government conspiracy? ...hmmm, let's see:

* destruction closely resembles demolition by explosives

* military stand down on 9/11/2001

* all evidence quickly removed, shipped overseas, or buried

* numerous government statements about 911 are outright lies

* 911 Commission Report false

* important details ignored, or covered up

* etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc....


Sounds like a conspiracy to me!


Allow me to suggest you pick up a copy of WAKING UP FROM OUR NIGHTMARE





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[gorillaboy]

The government really screwed NY too- HARD!

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...type=printable

[notepad]

From 911research.wtc7.net...

The March edition of Popular Mechanics magazine has sunk to an all time low by supporting the government's false claim that fire and planes brought down the World Trade Center Towers.



This article has a page of Editor's Notes, "The Lies Are Out There," written by James Meigs (pictured above), whose previous columns have praised military technology (such as the UAVs used in Fallujah). Meigs places outside of society anyone who questions the official version of events of 9/11/01.

Besides trashing the skeptics, and conflating "this country" with its corrupt leaders, Meig's piece attempts to legitimatize PM's "investigation." It reads:

"We assembled a team of reporters and researchers, including professional fact checkers and the editors of PM, and methodically analyzed all 16 conspiracy claims. We interviewed scores of engineers, aviation experts, military officials, eyewitnesses and members of the investigative teams who have held the wreckage of the attacks in their own hands. We pored over photography, maps, blueprints, aviation logs and transcripts. In every single instance, we found that the facts used by the conspiracy theorists to support their fantasies were mistaken, misunderstood, or deliberately falsified."

This sounds impressive, but the article provides no evidence to back up these claims. It provides no footnotes to source its many assertions, and despite the scores of experts listed in its final section, the article cites only a few "experts," who would themselves likely be suspects if normal criminal justice procedures were used to investigate the crime.

Read Jim Hoffman of 911 Research rebuttal

Online Edition of the Popular Mechanics Article

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[notepad]

The above Popular Mechanics' article obviously proves how important it is (to the guilty parties who orchestrated the demolitions) to maintain the lie concerning 911 ...to continue distributing misinformation to the general population about what really happened on that day.

If the administration and its Controllers were truly crafty, they'd just keep their mouths shut and not bring further attention to 911. Instead, they have accomplished the opposite with this article.

[gorillaboy]

Well, honestly this issue is picking up some steam and they can't ignore it anymore.

They'll have to start another war to divert the public's attention.

[notepad]

I'd have to say we're already in a war, we're already under siege ...people in America are already being attacked on a thousand different fronts ...not over seas, not in a foreign land ...not against any "terrorists" this administration created ...the war is being waged right here in the U.S., right here in our own back yard, every moment of everyday.

The citizens of this country are so jaded, so misinformed, so lost and so overwhelmed that they misjudge the dark force which intends to suck the life from them ...they even defend their executioners and refuse to see the truth ...they don't even realize their freedoms are being eroded away ...they are so "entertained" that they prefer to ignore the signs all around them ...they have truly become like livestock being led to slaughter ...that is what's truly sad.

...no need to start another war, the main battle is happening right here, right now.

[gorillaboy]

Like I said, if our way of life is not changed and gas prices stay low- NOBODY GIVES A **** about any of this other stuff!

[cbolts]

Notepad:

If you want to change anything, you have to make a group of like minded individuals. Have facts and figures, try to get your message accross in any media you can. No one else will do it for you, and if you don't the same sorts of things will continue to happen. Jeb will probably "win" the election in 08, and 12. After that there will be a another greedy criminal with new name leading the criminals. Who knows what damage they can do to America by then? Do you want to wait and find out?

[notepad]

Still, our country has been overthrown by a gang of powerful criminals; we are helpless against them. The Bush crime family has enacted far reaching laws (The Patriot Act, etc.) which the average man doesn't even realize has robbed him of his rights.

Again, if we protest, if we speak too loudly now against the government (the President), we can be arrested, perhaps never to be seen again, sometimes even killed. We have all been deceived and we are collectively made unwilling conspirators in the heinous crimes against people in other countries.

The Bush crime family under the cloak of democracy has brought only misery and death to others. There are many Americans here who feel we may face a very similar fate soon. The destruction of Iraq and Afghanistan, the murders and tortures of their men, the rape of their women, the looting of their country's treasures, installation of murderous governors ...all may serve the U.S. military as a practice session to eventually be used against us here too.

WE ARE AT WAR HERE WITH OURSELVES MOVING EVER CLOSER TOWARDS THE ABYSS

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[notepad]

Although it has overwhelming political implications with the ultimate blame being eventually placed upon "someone" ...I think this discussion is deviating too far from the subject into world politics, party preferences, history lessons, etc.

If possible, I would like to keep this string on-topic and discuss more of the HOW, rather than the why, or who of 911.

[Ferre]

Still, our country has been overthrown by a gang of powerful criminals; we are helpless against them. Hitler has enacted far reaching laws which the average man doesn't even realize has robbed him of his rights.

Deja vu. All you need to change is the names. It's sad times we're living in.

[gorillaboy]

People are too concerened with reality TV shows and **** like that.

[notepad]

Originally Posted by gorillaboy

People are too concerened with reality TV shows and **** like that.

...the best entertained, yet most ignorant humanoids around?


Please Mr. Spaceman, won't you please take me along ...I won't do anything wrong!


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[Jonathan VanSchaack]

damn guys, your still at this? Think its time to LOCK this thread