Webmaster Forum

Go Back   Webmaster Forum > The Webmaster Forums > Forum Lobby > Controversial Social Issues

Controversial Social Issues Discussions concerning controversial social issues. Topics include politics, religion, culture, social and economic issues, etc. Respect required at all times.


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Share |
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2010, 12:11 PM
South's Avatar
v7n Mentor
Latest Blog:
None

 
Join Date: 10-13-03
Posts: 2,489
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Call to Europeans

There seems to be a lot of European blogging and reporting lately that praises the Obama regime's coup against America's businesses, specifically regarding healthcare.

Let me first tell you why I'm against it. You have to understand what the constitution provides to understand why there are those of us who love it the way we do. I sometimes wonder if outsiders 1) dislike the constitution or 2) just don't understand it. Support for the current regime exposes that one of the two is correct.

When you were a child you lived in your parent's home. They paid the bills and you didn't have to worry about them. They filled the refrigerator and there was always plenty. They drove you everywhere you needed to go and made sure the tank was full. The grown-ups handled disagreements between you and your friends. They made sure that everything was OK and you could sleep safe and secure in that knowledge every night.

They also told you when to get out of bed. They told you when to go to bed. They told you what to eat and what lights were to be turned off and on. They told you where you could and couldn't go. They told you who you could and couldn't play with. Since they paid for your life, they got to control it.

When you became an adult you moved out on your own. Now you have the stress of earning enough money to pay your own bills, pay for your own gasoline, buy your own insurance, buy your own groceries. You have to resolve your own conflicts, fight your own fights. If you fail to do these things, you suffer the consequences.

But.......you're free to pursue life on your own terms.

I love that the constitution opens up the world to unlimited personal possibilities.

I understand that with that freedom I have to earn enough money to support the lifestyle I want. If I fail, I'll have to live a different lifestyle. I understand that If I don't buy groceries...I don't eat. I understand that if I don't pay my mortgage, they take my house. I understand that if I get sick, I have to figure out a way to pay the doctor. I understand that if I can't pay the doctor I may have to find a charity to help, or I may have to die.

But.......I'm free to pursue my life, while I have it, on my own terms.

Now there are those very concerned with the "fairness" of this arrangement. They want to dilute it for all of us until it matches their notion of fairness. The Europeans seem to think that this is a bloody jolly idea.

So I propose this.

There must be some European "cowboys". Those who want to face life without a net for the privilege of defining their own destinies. In the spirit of student exchange programs, I suggest a citizen exchange program. We'll keep our constitution and all that comes with it and you can send us your men and ladies of vision and passion. We'll welcome them with open arms and show them the ropes.

We'll send you all of our limp wristed fairness peddlers, poverty pimps, and Holden Caulfield disciples. They'll love the socialism, and you'll like their mindset. You can teach them how to play "footy" in short pants, and y'all can all have drinks together and talk about what an unfair, racist, bullying, hate-filled bunch of uneducated rednecks we are. We'll laugh it off as usual and everybody will be happy.

That's it. Who's in?
__________________
Angry Mob Member

Last edited by South; 04-20-2010 at 12:14 PM.
 
Reply With Quote

Advertisement

Advertisement

  #2 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2010, 01:24 PM
robjones's Avatar
v7n Mentor
Latest Blog:
None

 
Join Date: 09-15-09
Location: Texas
Posts: 9,680
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Quote:
So I propose this.

There must be some European "cowboys". Those who want to face life without a net for the privilege of defining their own destinies. In the spirit of student exchange programs, I suggest a citizen exchange program. We'll keep our constitution and all that comes with it and you can send us your men and ladies of vision and passion. We'll welcome them with open arms and show them the ropes.

We'll send you all of our limp wristed fairness peddlers, poverty pimps, and Holden Caulfield disciples. They'll love the socialism, and you'll like their mindset. You can teach them how to play "footy" in short pants, and y'all can all have drinks together and talk about what an unfair, racist, bullying, hate-filled bunch of uneducated rednecks we are. We'll laugh it off as usual and everybody will be happy.

That's it. Who's in?
LOL. I'll tell you off the bat that I'm not a fan of Obama for a number of reasons (the first of which is that I'm a kneejerk free-market capitalist who is violently opposed to the idea that getting government involved is typically a good solution for problems). It isnt what it was designed to do here, and if they'd get the hell outta the way entirely... 9 outta 10 times the free market would fix a lot of the problems by itself.

That said... they are not likely once involved in an issue to ever get out entirely, and as such the healthcare system in the US was a bastardized hybrid that encouraged waste, fraud, ridiculous judgments against doctors in courts that encouraged the lawyer lottery and discouraged common sense medical practice, entitlement, and most of all, a system where those of modest means couldnt possibly afford medical care unless they worked for a company that supplied it.

That is NOT a product of free market system, it is a byproduct of a number of very strong lobbies buying all the influence they could in DC. At that point my feeling became "Hell, if they're gonna take it to this level I'd prefer they just take it all the way to the type system they have in Canada." At least people I know there report that they can get treatment without having to declare bankruptcy afterward. My thought was just take the freakin' tax dollars they spend on useless pork-barrel BS the government pokes their big camel-into-the-tent nose into and plow it into a decent medical system.

They didnt of course do that, and the result of the infighting and political posturing on both sides was just a further bastardized product that is probably at least as screwed up as what we had before. I know enough people in both the medical and the legal industry to know our system was screwed up, and I've been self-insured long enough to know it's a darned good thing I come from healthy stock.

So maybe I lose my cowboy credentials on this one, cause I came down with the socialists on this one. Just a matter of looking at the reality of the situation and trying to figure out what could actually work as opposed to get some a-hole re-elected. I'm just so darned tired of the bozos on both ends of the spectrum putting their re-election ahead of actually running the boat in a reasonable fashion that I'd support term limits for any elected position in the nation. Career politicians are a cancer in the US system that should have been excised long ago.
__________________
-- CAUTION: Not Politically Correct --

Last edited by robjones; 04-20-2010 at 01:40 PM.
 
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2010, 01:47 PM
G10's Avatar
G10 G10 is offline
Super Moderator
Latest Blog:
None

 
Join Date: 05-10-04
Location: UK - Cheshire
Posts: 11,763
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Very good post and I am all for freedom.

Just out of curiosity, what would happen if an American guy was not poor (above the medicaid threshold) but was not rich either. Let's just say our friend did not have healthcare and one day either accidentally tripped or was hit by a hit and run driver, knocked his head and was out cold (coma if you will) for about a month.

His hospital bill, who foots this?

I am only asking as I genuinely do not know and am just trying to educate myself a little more about the US system.
__________________
Click Here for Chester Carpet Cleaners
Sequential Labeling - Sticker and Decal Printers
 
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2010, 01:51 PM
South's Avatar
v7n Mentor
Latest Blog:
None

 
Join Date: 10-13-03
Posts: 2,489
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Quote:
Originally Posted by G10 View Post
Just out of curiosity, what would happen if an American guy was not poor (above the medicaid threshold) but was not rich either. Let's just say our friend did not have healthcare and one day either accidentally tripped or was hit by a hit and run driver, knocked his head and was out cold (coma if you will) for about a month.

His hospital bill, who foots this?

I am only asking as I genuinely do not know and am just trying to educate myself a little more about the US system.
He pays it himself. Most any hospital will charge an extremely reduced rate for the non-insured and set you up on a payment plan based on what you can afford. They've done it for me.
__________________
Angry Mob Member
 
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2010, 02:04 PM
G10's Avatar
G10 G10 is offline
Super Moderator
Latest Blog:
None

 
Join Date: 05-10-04
Location: UK - Cheshire
Posts: 11,763
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Thank you, I genuinely did not know that.

I ask because my friends boss over there ended up in hospital due to a car swerving towards them.. Granted, the IDIOT did not have health insurance.

They were in hospital for quite a while and were in intensive care for just under a week. They came out of hospital with a $95,000 bill.

One hell of a tough lesson to learn for not having health-care and especially as it wasn't their fault that they were in there.

Personally, I think you guys are very advanced in medicine and certain aspects of health. All I am saying is that God forbid, if i ever get cancer, I want to be treated there as your system is definitely better than ours in many ways, though at the same time, it can completely financially cripple and destroy people.

There are good and bad in both our systems but that side just scares the hell out of me anyway.
__________________
Click Here for Chester Carpet Cleaners
Sequential Labeling - Sticker and Decal Printers
 
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2010, 02:20 PM
South's Avatar
v7n Mentor
Latest Blog:
None

 
Join Date: 10-13-03
Posts: 2,489
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Quote:
Originally Posted by G10 View Post
Personally, I think you guys are very advanced in medicine and certain aspects of health. All I am saying is that God forbid, if i ever get cancer, I want to be treated there as your system is definitely better than ours in many ways,
Today, yes. Many people fly here for treatment of critical diseases. It's advanced because there was profit in finding new and better ways to treat people. Now, the incredible intellects behind the DMV and the US Postal Service will be calling the shots. Eat healthy. America will not be a good place to get sick in a decade or so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G10 View Post
though at the same time, it can completely financially cripple and destroy people.
True, but if you buy a $300,000.00 house then don't insure it, a fire financially ruins you. Buy an $50,000.00 car then don't insure it, a wreck costs you $50K.

Insurance exists. It just costs too much. There are some really simple measures that could have been taken to take a massive portion of that load off. So why not use them?

Understand this. Obamacare has nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing to do with improving healthcare or lowering the costs of it. It's not designed to and it will not. Zero. Nothing.
__________________
Angry Mob Member
 
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2010, 02:38 PM
G10's Avatar
G10 G10 is offline
Super Moderator
Latest Blog:
None

 
Join Date: 05-10-04
Location: UK - Cheshire
Posts: 11,763
iTrader: 5 / 100%
I think it is your last point that we struggle with (in the UK anyway).

Our healthcare system was born out of a semi-crippled economy as we had just finished fighting WW2 and the govornment genuinely wanted to help the country and it's people get back on track.

Even as we speak, people from all over the world are coming over here as they want a part in our National Health System.

The point we struggle with is that it seems like your National Health System is being born out of greed which in that case, of course it will fail.

I guess as ours was, we would like to think that your government is doing it to help it's people and it is a sad state of affairs if this is not the case.
__________________
Click Here for Chester Carpet Cleaners
Sequential Labeling - Sticker and Decal Printers
 
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2010, 05:31 PM
John Scott's Avatar
Individualist
 
Join Date: 09-27-03
Location: Wherever I want.
Posts: 28,046
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Quote:
Even as we speak, people from all over the world are coming over here as they want a part in our National Health System.
Because it's free, i.e., funded with money stolen at gunpoint from others? Or because it's such a wonderful system that only a few citizens who paid into their entire lives die waiting for treatment?
__________________
Japan Car Auction
 
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2010, 05:55 PM
G10's Avatar
G10 G10 is offline
Super Moderator
Latest Blog:
None

 
Join Date: 05-10-04
Location: UK - Cheshire
Posts: 11,763
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Neither. Probably because it won't cripple you financially and everyone has it everyone is entitled to it.

I never said ours was perfect John, but then neither is the US systems.
__________________
Click Here for Chester Carpet Cleaners
Sequential Labeling - Sticker and Decal Printers
 
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 04-21-2010, 01:06 AM
John Scott's Avatar
Individualist
 
Join Date: 09-27-03
Location: Wherever I want.
Posts: 28,046
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Quote:
Originally Posted by G10 View Post
neither is the US systems.
See, that's the difference, the "system" thing. It's a collectivist approach. I don't see a need for a health care "system" - let individuals deal with individual doctors, or insurance companies if they must.
__________________
Japan Car Auction
 
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 04-21-2010, 03:30 AM
G10's Avatar
G10 G10 is offline
Super Moderator
Latest Blog:
None

 
Join Date: 05-10-04
Location: UK - Cheshire
Posts: 11,763
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Ok, I can't argue with that, ours is a collective approach and not an individual approach and I am sure the system over there works pretty good for most.

It is strange how ours gets made to look like it is seriously failing when actually it is either ahead of/equal to, or just trailing by a fraction to one that costs so much more.

UK Health stats
US Health stats

Don't get me wrong, this discussion is about the freedom to choose which I completely understand and I am in favour for.

In 1945, we never had that choice and yes, maybe that was a bad thing but darn, it can sure hold up against most other systems, and, sometimes better theirs and at a fraction of the cost to it's people.

To me, that is not a bad thing, in this instance anyway.
__________________
Click Here for Chester Carpet Cleaners
Sequential Labeling - Sticker and Decal Printers
 
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 04-21-2010, 04:43 AM
TechWizard's Avatar
v7n Mentor
 
Join Date: 07-27-07
Location: Georgia
Posts: 6,156
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Quote:
Originally Posted by G10 View Post
Ok, I can't argue with that, ours is a collective approach and not an individual approach and I am sure the system over there works pretty good for most.

It is strange how ours gets made to look like it is seriously failing when actually it is either ahead of/equal to, or just trailing by a fraction to one that costs so much more.

UK Health stats
US Health stats

Don't get me wrong, this discussion is about the freedom to choose which I completely understand and I am in favour for.

In 1945, we never had that choice and yes, maybe that was a bad thing but darn, it can sure hold up against most other systems, and, sometimes better theirs and at a fraction of the cost to it's people.

To me, that is not a bad thing, in this instance anyway.
A couple points of issue....
Another, there is quite a bit of wait time for many if not almost all of the procedures that take place it seems in the U.K. a friend of mine from there, was in need of a procedure, unable to work until it was done, though he holds the U.K. health system in high regard had to wait over six months to get in to have the procedure, it was reschedule several times due to unavailable space or scheduling...in the U.S. yes there are bad stories here as well, but in most instances it is the opposite, if a procedure that is critical to life needs to be done, it is usually handled fairly quickly if not right away, such was the case for me when the situation appeared, and then years later for my wife as well, when she needed a gull bladder removed. It was scheduled done and she was back at work within weeks, no insurance in both instances, manual pay.

If you are to compare the U.S. proposed HC plan that has recently been passed versus the current U.K. system the U.K. system is by far better an there in lies the problem, not only is it an issue of freedoms on our part, it is also the issue that the system is severely flawed and was rushed through regardless of it's workability or quality, simply to be able to say it was done.

So whatever system we did have in place, be it flawed or not is now going to become worse and severely over strained at about the worst economical time possible not only for us as a country but for the rest of the free world that depends upon our economic status.
__________________
Get A PC Helper
Virus Malware Removal | Remote Computer Repair
And More...
www.pchelper123.com


 
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 04-21-2010, 05:45 AM
G10's Avatar
G10 G10 is offline
Super Moderator
Latest Blog:
None

 
Join Date: 05-10-04
Location: UK - Cheshire
Posts: 11,763
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Good post the gamerslink and I see your point on some of those things.

Your story about people waiting rings true over here and it does happen from time to time. Fortunately it has never happened for my family or friends as there are ways to stop this.

If a doctor tells you that you have to wait a long time, make an appointment to see a specialist (usually costs about 100/$148 and if it is important, trust me, you will be jumping the queue as specialists have that power.... Always works and there is no way to stop that method from working

Sorry to seem ignorant here but I am just trying to understand.

I found this on the retuers site:
Quote:
* Age rating:

This refers to the ratio of how much insurers can charge older people relative to the amount they charge young people for health insurance. It is particularly important to the AARP, the influential advocacy group for older people. The House of Representatives bill, which is backed by AARP, has a ratio of 2:1, meaning insurers can charge an older person twice what they charge a young person. The Senate bill has a ratio of 3:1, which would allow insurers to charge older people up to three times what they charge younger people. The AARP prefers that all ages be treated the same for premiums.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5BM44R20091223
I do not fully understand this, are they saying that if what Obama is proposing comes into force then they can charge the elderly up to 3 times as much or is that whats in place now?

If they are trying to charge 3 times as much under the Obama system then yes on this principle alone, I am fully on your side and dead against it also.
__________________
Click Here for Chester Carpet Cleaners
Sequential Labeling - Sticker and Decal Printers
 
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 04-21-2010, 07:18 AM
Zap's Avatar
Zap Zap is offline
Super Moderator
Latest Blog:
None

 
Join Date: 01-15-06
Posts: 13,755
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Good posts, South and Rob.
But South, you are, either, blind to the freedoms you do not have already or choose to ignore them in favour of attempting to perceive this "freedom" you desire.
Individualists, listen up...
If you choose to live in a society, you're going to lose some individualism, and, therefore, some freedoms.
That's how it works.
Society = Social = Socialism

Rob, at least, is realistic about the situation.
You have to accept that if you're going to make yourself a part of any society, that you're going to have to give up some freedoms to the will of that society. It's commonly called compromise and if you're unwilling to do that, then a deserted island needs to be at the top of your list of places to be.

I also have to say that I find it a little humourous that the biggest proponent of individualism here, lives on a tiny group of islands with tons (127 million) of people on them. Forget about Guam. Japan is going to capsize sooner.
 
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 04-21-2010, 07:52 AM
Contributing Member
Latest Blog:
None

 
Join Date: 08-15-06
Posts: 10,109
iTrader: 11 / 100%
That's right Zap, I guess people forget that: Society = Social = Socialism
__________________
"The secret of freedom lies in educating people, whereas the secret of tyranny is in keeping them ignorant."

Robespierre
 
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 04-21-2010, 08:46 AM
Banned
Latest Blog:
None

 
Join Date: 03-11-10
Posts: 135
iTrader: 0 / 0%
well i will say that the people who are saying against the health policy are somehow working for the opposition leaders and have freedom of speech to say anything but people should not give a damn to these fake news. Its how the real world works.
 
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 04-21-2010, 09:01 AM
v7n Mentor
Latest Blog:
None

 
Join Date: 02-14-08
Location: UK
Posts: 1,491
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Quote:
Originally Posted by thegamerslink View Post


Another, there is quite a bit of wait time for many if not almost all of the procedures that take place it seems in the U.K. a friend of mine from there, was in need of a procedure, unable to work until it was done, though he holds the U.K. health system in high regard had to wait over six months to get in to have the procedure, it was reschedule several times due to unavailable space or scheduling...in the U.S. yes there are bad stories here as well, but in most instances it is the opposite, if a procedure that is critical to life needs to be done, it is usually handled fairly quickly if not right away, such was the case for me when the situation appeared, and then years later for my wife as well, when she needed a gull bladder removed. It was scheduled done and she was back at work within weeks, no insurance in both instances, manual pay.
There are times when someone has to wait, but much of that is being addressed and time limits are being set for cancer patients and other serious ilnesses have to be seen.

Some years ago my mother-in-law required surgery for cancer of the throat. It was to be several hours of surgery and some pioneeering surgery at that. She epent weeks in hospital but recovered and lived a full life for many years. That could bankrupt a family, I understand in the US, but on a true insurance basis, ie that you pay a little and take if the cause arises, she did not have to pay anything at the point of delivery. Richer people, unless going private would not have received any better or different care. I think that is marvellous.

But presumably you individualists never take out any insurance, because that depends on the same principle. You guys must just depend on your bank balances.
__________________
______________________________________________
I was a DMOZ editor. I will be an editor in the soon to be NEW human edited directory. My opinions are my own.
 
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 04-21-2010, 09:05 AM
Zap's Avatar
Zap Zap is offline
Super Moderator
Latest Blog:
None

 
Join Date: 01-15-06
Posts: 13,755
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymously View Post
But presumably you individualists never take out any insurance, because that depends on the same principle. You guys must just depend on your bank balances.
Voluntary socialization of their own medical care.
 
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 04-21-2010, 09:13 AM
John Scott's Avatar
Individualist
 
Join Date: 09-27-03
Location: Wherever I want.
Posts: 28,046
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Quote:
You have to accept that if you're going to make yourself a part of any society, that you're going to have to give up some freedoms to the will of that society.
If you had simply said: "You have to accept that if you're going to make yourself a part of any society, that you're going to have to give up some freedoms," you would have been on solid ground.

You added, "to the will of that society." There you lost it. There is no general will, society is an ambiguous collective, and giving up individual sovereignty is impossible to do in degrees. Either you are the boss of you, or some other agency is, whether that agency be a rapist or the government makes no difference to theindefensibility of the collectivism.

There is no reason why one individual who enters into a scheme of cooperation with other individuals (what you call society) should surrender his sovereignty to one or more of those other individuals.
__________________
Japan Car Auction
 
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 04-21-2010, 09:21 AM
John Scott's Avatar
Individualist
 
Join Date: 09-27-03
Location: Wherever I want.
Posts: 28,046
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymously View Post

But presumably you individualists never take out any insurance, because that depends on the same principle. You guys must just depend on your bank balances.
Here you are confusing Randian moral individualism with political individualism. They are two different things.

Randian individualism holds "self actualization" or self realization to be the highest moral good, and it urges independent thought and independent action. It's a moral claim.

Political individualism, on the other hand, deals with authority. It answers the question, "Who is sovereign, society or the individual?" Within a system of individualism, a voluntary national health care scheme is entirely legitimate., and something I support. In fact, a large scheme of "safety net" services could be done in an individualist system, and done better than the current system.
__________________
Japan Car Auction
 
Reply With Quote
Go Back   Webmaster Forum > The Webmaster Forums > Forum Lobby > Controversial Social Issues

Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Click-To-Call "Call Now" Button for Websites and Email sedonagate Content 0 07-25-2009 12:47 PM
Which search engine is more accustomed to use for Europeans? andyllin Google Forum 4 07-23-2009 02:47 AM


V7N Network
Get exposure! V7N I Love Photography V7N SEO Blog V7N Directory


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:18 PM.
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.
Copyright © 2003 - 2014 Escalate Media




Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 RC 2 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.