Webmaster Forum

Go Back   Webmaster Forum > The Webmaster Forums > Forum Lobby > Controversial Social Issues

Controversial Social Issues Discussions concerning controversial social issues. Topics include politics, religion, culture, social and economic issues, etc. Respect required at all times.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Share |
  #181  
Old 07-31-2010, 08:51 PM
deepsand's Avatar
deepsand deepsand is offline
Rest In Peace 1946 – 2013
 
Join Date: 01-14-10
Location: State College, PA
Posts: 14,946
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymously View Post
Remind me were Hamas democratically elected and if so is that not what the West is fighting for in Afghanistan and Iraq?
While the legitimacy of the elections is debateable, assume for the moment that they were indeed fair. The question then becomes did or did not the populace intend that Gaza should undertake offensive actions against Israel?

If yes, then they must bear the consequences of such.

If no, then they were betrayed by Hamas.

In either instance, it is not the case that the hostile acts of any state can be justified simply on the grounds that such acts were carried out by "those duly elected."

The "duly elected" frequently do very bad things.

__________________
 
Reply With Quote

Advertisement

Advertisement

  #182  
Old 08-01-2010, 12:47 PM
robjones's Avatar
robjones robjones is offline
v7n Mentor
 
Join Date: 09-15-09
Location: Texas
Posts: 9,680
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Quote:
The "duly elected" frequently do very bad things.
I don't like to watch C-span either.
 
Reply With Quote
  #183  
Old 08-01-2010, 03:35 PM
deepsand's Avatar
deepsand deepsand is offline
Rest In Peace 1946 – 2013
 
Join Date: 01-14-10
Location: State College, PA
Posts: 14,946
iTrader: 0 / 0%
I don't much like watching television.

__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #184  
Old 08-09-2010, 04:02 PM
fastreplies fastreplies is offline
No Longer Active
 
Join Date: 09-20-07
Location: Canada
Posts: 598
iTrader: 0 / 50%
I thought that the reason Israeli soldiers boarded that ship to inspect if there were any weapons aboard.
Ship captain, from what I heard, was advices about landing party and gave permission but when soldiers
climb on aboard, “peaceful” Palestinian supporters attacked them. At least to me it looks like captain setup
trap and people aboard weren’t interested to let for that inspection to happen.

The fact that they never backup after first and then second protester has been shot says at least to me
that they came to fight war and not to deliver consumer goods and food. The real question we have to ask
ourselves, if this incident was avoidable or not?



fastreplies
 
Reply With Quote
  #185  
Old 08-10-2010, 02:04 AM
anonymously anonymously is offline
v7n Mentor
 
Join Date: 02-14-08
Location: UK
Posts: 1,493
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastreplies View Post
I thought that the reason Israeli soldiers boarded that ship to inspect if there were any weapons aboard.
They boarded the ship to enforce the blockade whatever was aboard.
Quote:
people aboard weren’t interested to let for that inspection to happen.
Would you be if you believed the blockade illegal and you were going to be boarded by soldiers.

Quote:
The fact that they never backup after first and then second protester has been shot says at least to me
that they came to fight war and not to deliver consumer goods and food. The real question we have to ask
ourselves, if this incident was avoidable or not?
Yep says to me the soldiers were intent on killing, any crack team that needs to do that amount of killing to people who had no firearms needs more than re-training, unless that was their real purpose.

Seems Israel are afraid of their soldiers being interviewed about the incident http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100809/.../gaza_blockade. Now I wonder if that is because they might be willing to tell the truth?
 
Reply With Quote
  #186  
Old 08-10-2010, 03:53 AM
Quotes Papa's Avatar
Quotes Papa Quotes Papa is offline
v7n Mentor
 
Join Date: 07-12-10
Posts: 695
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Let's for a second or two suppose that this whole incident was more or less censored by the related parties and the governments involved.

Then they could deal with the situation effectively and everything would be solved relatively smooth...

Instead of, now here we go... having the whole population of the planet stop all important activities to sit down and discuss and debate and argue and flame and blame and chat about this incident that happened so far away from everyone that nobody would have ever known unless the media exploded.

I think it started with a nice idea of freedom of speech, then it developed into a business, then the people had to pay for it by wasting their own time on too many irrelevant things to their own existence.

I hope I didn't change topic
 
Reply With Quote
  #187  
Old 08-10-2010, 06:55 AM
robjones's Avatar
robjones robjones is offline
v7n Mentor
 
Join Date: 09-15-09
Location: Texas
Posts: 9,680
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Quote:
Yep says to me the soldiers were intent on killing
Gotta agree Fasts point that the IDF didnt expect armed resistance or they'd have handled boarding differently.

Per the videos offered by passengers...
--- the IDF didnt have covering fire supporting their entry
--- there were no flash-bangs preceding their entry
--- and they came on in small numbers.
Nothing about the entry suggests they expected the reception they got, with wrist-rocket fire starting before they landed and swarms of guys armed with pipes converging as they touched down.

As for the passengers not un-armed... a wrist-rocket with surgical rubber can be used for hunting, and will easily maim or kill at the ranges available, as will a club. I've already pointed out the laser-sighted revolver in the hand of a passenger as seen in the passenger's video. Unarmed? No.

FWIW - It isnt a given that anyone who doesnt accuse the boarding team of premeditated murder automatically agrees with every act of Israeli policy. Though I'm sympathetic to their situation with collective enemies seeking their annihilation, doesnt translate to "anything goes".

Not certain how to effect peace between factions at war for so long, but it needs to happen.
 
Reply With Quote
  #188  
Old 08-10-2010, 10:35 AM
fastreplies fastreplies is offline
No Longer Active
 
Join Date: 09-20-07
Location: Canada
Posts: 598
iTrader: 0 / 50%
Let me remind you that Israeli Army is THE MOST disciplined army in a World
and that soldiers spend more time in sensitivity classes than they are learning
how to shoot guns.

There is no Rambo style soldiers in Israeli Army and to make sure there never
will be one any unjustified act against civilians will guarantee soldier time in jail
as deterrent for others to act as animals. Only people who have no ideas how
Israeli militaries are function will believe that Israeli commandoes went on
rampage and killing spree just to have a fun.

The question that still remains, if lost of lives were avoidable?



fastreplies

Last edited by fastreplies; 08-10-2010 at 10:44 AM.
 
Reply With Quote
  #189  
Old 08-10-2010, 10:57 AM
rabble's Avatar
rabble rabble is offline
v7n Mentor
 
Join Date: 12-24-08
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,868
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Have to agree I've seen no evidence the deaths on-board were premeditated.

As for sensitivity training ... get real.
This is a military which routinely targets people who have had no trial
for extermination, who bomb schools, water plants, power plants and vital
civilian infrastructure. This is a military which routinely rolls over cars.
Who bulldozes private dwellings, which has cluster bombed apartment buildings,
which has prevented ambulances from evacuating the wounded.
 
Reply With Quote
  #190  
Old 08-10-2010, 11:24 AM
fastreplies fastreplies is offline
No Longer Active
 
Join Date: 09-20-07
Location: Canada
Posts: 598
iTrader: 0 / 50%
Let me ask you something. What will you do if rock had break the window in your house
and glass injured your wife and child and you know it was thrown by your neighbor?

I would guess you would go to your neighbor and ask him to stop doing that.
But what if he pull his gun and start threaten you and your family and you have gun to defend
your family and yourself, will you use it or you will let him to destroy you and your family?

???

fastreplies
 
Reply With Quote
  #191  
Old 08-10-2010, 03:18 PM
DocSheldon's Avatar
DocSheldon DocSheldon is offline
v7n Mentor
 
Join Date: 01-01-10
Location: Baja California
Posts: 3,740
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymously View Post

Seems Israel are afraid of their soldiers being interviewed about the incident http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100809/.../gaza_blockade. Now I wonder if that is because they might be willing to tell the truth?
I'd say it's a lot more likely that there could be terrorist repercussions against the families of those commandos, if their identities were known.

Ya know, when I read a thread like this, I always try to look at each post with an unjaundiced eye... I've found if I keep my mind open, new knowledge can get in, whereas if I approach it in a closed manner, I'm bound to leave with no more than I came in with.

There's been some good points made in this thread, on both sides of the argument. Unfortunately, though, not everyone is willing to accept information that doesn't fit into their preconceived notions. That's fine, I suppose... depends on whether you jump in to discuss, and possibly learn, or are just looking for a podium, so you can beat the same old drum.

For my part, I fail to see how anybody can not recognize that the attack on those commandos was intended to elicit a violent response, so as to capitalize on it, with lots of negative press and the pressure it brings. Getting supplies through to Gaza was the LAST thing on their minds... they wanted a scene.
Well, they got it. Good on 'em! But my daddy always taught me that if I went and picked a fight with the biggest, ugliest guy in the bar, I'd better not come whinin' to him, when I got my head handed to me.

Seems to be a whole lot o' whinin' goin' on, from the folks that picked the fight.
 
Reply With Quote
  #192  
Old 08-10-2010, 07:48 PM
deepsand's Avatar
deepsand deepsand is offline
Rest In Peace 1946 – 2013
 
Join Date: 01-14-10
Location: State College, PA
Posts: 14,946
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Now does
Quote:
The fact that they never backup after first and then second protester has been shot says at least to me that they came to fight war and not to deliver consumer goods and food.
translate into

Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymously View Post
Yep says to me the soldiers were intent on killing, any crack team that needs to do that amount of killing to people who had no firearms needs more than re-training, unless that was their real purpose.
???

The statement is that those on-board continued to attack the boarders.

Also, have you forgotten that those on-board were in possession of weapons seized from the boarding party?

Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymously View Post
Seems Israel are afraid of their soldiers being interviewed about the incident http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100809/.../gaza_blockade. Now I wonder if that is because they might be willing to tell the truth?
Seems that they are simply executing their legal obligations as members of the military.

Those in uniform are not free to act as spokespersons for the military.

__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #193  
Old 08-10-2010, 09:11 PM
fastreplies fastreplies is offline
No Longer Active
 
Join Date: 09-20-07
Location: Canada
Posts: 598
iTrader: 0 / 50%
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymously View Post
Yep says to me the soldiers were intent on killing, any crack team that needs to do that amount of killing to people who had no firearms needs more than re-training, unless that was their real purpose.
So, you are saying that Israeli had sinister plan to embark ship and to kill everybody on board.

Well, I can tell you, if they were able to profess in advance what could happen on board of “peaceful ship”,
then why even bother because it would be easier for them to shoot a couple of missiles at ship and watch
from the distance everybody jumping that ship like rats.

There are many ways to kill men and women. Just ask Palestinians who are perfected act of shooting
missiles from the distance from behind houses of their families.



fastreplies

Last edited by fastreplies; 08-10-2010 at 09:19 PM.
 
Reply With Quote
  #194  
Old 08-10-2010, 09:15 PM
deepsand's Avatar
deepsand deepsand is offline
Rest In Peace 1946 – 2013
 
Join Date: 01-14-10
Location: State College, PA
Posts: 14,946
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Or, use limpet mines, and maintain plausible deniability.

__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #195  
Old 08-10-2010, 09:37 PM
Alfredito's Avatar
Alfredito Alfredito is offline
Contributing Member
 
Join Date: 08-18-07
Location: Bangkok, Thailand
Posts: 299
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabble View Post
Have to agree I've seen no evidence the deaths on-board were premeditated.

As for sensitivity training ... get real.
This is a military which routinely targets people who have had no trial
for extermination, who bomb schools, water plants, power plants and vital
civilian infrastructure. This is a military which routinely rolls over cars.
Who bulldozes private dwellings, which has cluster bombed apartment buildings,
which has prevented ambulances from evacuating the wounded.
I am from israel, i was 3 years serving as infantry in the IDF. i can confirm that we were trained NOT to shoot ANYONE unless they shoot first or was about to shoot. It really is a peacefull army, very proffessional, but wont hurt anyone if not have a good reason.

I dont always agree with the israeli goverment actions, but i do know that the Hamas are good in spining the media so the world will think that they are so poor and weak and that Israel are the bad guys. They are shooting bombs on israel all the time and when our army go in there, they use woman and children as human shields.

I saw kids throwing rocks and "fire bottles" on us, they teach them to hate from young age. instead of teaching that we are all human, JUST LIKE THEY TEACH US WHEN WE ARE KIDS IN ISRAEL.

No one here can say anything without being there, so please, dont you all say things you know NOTHING about.
 
Reply With Quote
  #196  
Old 08-10-2010, 09:48 PM
deepsand's Avatar
deepsand deepsand is offline
Rest In Peace 1946 – 2013
 
Join Date: 01-14-10
Location: State College, PA
Posts: 14,946
iTrader: 0 / 0%
It is human nature to eagerly seize upon that which supports ones preconceived and/or desired conclusion, and be blind to that which does not.

__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #197  
Old 08-11-2010, 12:25 AM
rabble's Avatar
rabble rabble is offline
v7n Mentor
 
Join Date: 12-24-08
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,868
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfredito View Post
I am from israel, i was 3 years serving as infantry in the IDF. i can confirm that we were trained NOT to shoot ANYONE unless they shoot first or was about to shoot. It really is a peacefull army, very proffessional, but wont hurt anyone if not have a good reason.
The American army is also professional.
All day long we are shooting and bombing and doing other evil deeds.
We justify it any way we can, both on the battlefield far away and here at home in our media.

Mainly we just think to ourselves it is not us who is doing these things.
It is our government or the evil deeds of others that is responsible
for what we are and for what we've become.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfredito View Post
I dont always agree with the israeli goverment actions, but i do know that the Hamas are good in spining the media so the world will think that they are so poor and weak and that Israel are the bad guys. They are shooting bombs on israel all the time and when our army go in there, they use woman and children as human shields.
I wish this were not the situation for Israel and Palestine to be at war,
but surely you see that the Palestinians, especially those who live in Gaza
can not make peace with you as long as you are their enemy. Past injustices can not be forgotten or forgiven as long as current injustice
exists. The power for peace lies only in Israel's hands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfredito View Post
I saw kids throwing rocks and "fire bottles" on us, they teach them to hate from young age. instead of teaching that we are all human, JUST LIKE THEY TEACH US WHEN WE ARE KIDS IN ISRAEL.
Wouldn't it be nice if the past would just go away and all of a sudden the Palestinians would forget how the Zionists stole their land and continue to steal it inch by inch, acre by acre, neighbourhood by neighbourhood, valley by valley. And, it is true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfredito View Post
No one here can say anything without being there, so please, dont you all say things you know NOTHING about.
Actually, I can say whatever I want within reason.
This forum is pretty good that way.

I am 58 years old. I have above average intelligence
and all my life I have had independently means.
It has given me plenty of time to learn and to observe, to study and to think.
There is almost nothing I know NOTHING about.

I think many others here can be commended on their knowledge as well.
It is not likely we will all be quiet now because you said please.
I am sure many will soon rise to Israel's defence.

Last edited by rabble; 08-11-2010 at 12:39 AM.
 
Reply With Quote
  #198  
Old 08-11-2010, 12:30 AM
deepsand's Avatar
deepsand deepsand is offline
Rest In Peace 1946 – 2013
 
Join Date: 01-14-10
Location: State College, PA
Posts: 14,946
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabble View Post
I wish this were not the situation for Israel and Palestine to be at war, but surely you see that the Palestinians, especially those who live in Gaza can not make peace with you as long as you are their enemy. Past injustices can not be forgotten or forgiven as long as current injustice exists. The power for peace lies only in Israel's hands.
How can it be in the hands of Israel alone, when Hamas wishes to have no peace with it, but nothing less than its destruction?

__________________

Last edited by deepsand; 08-11-2010 at 12:33 AM.
 
Reply With Quote
  #199  
Old 08-11-2010, 01:40 AM
rabble's Avatar
rabble rabble is offline
v7n Mentor
 
Join Date: 12-24-08
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,868
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Quote:
Originally Posted by deepsand View Post
How can it be in the hands of Israel alone, when Hamas wishes to have no peace with it, but nothing less than its destruction?

__________________
If you examine the record I believe you will find Hamas kept the peace remarkably well the first 10 months they were in power. I recall reading that only a limited number of rockets came over the fence. I think the number was four. Hamas denied responsibility for any of them.

In return Hamas expected to see an end to the blockade.
Eventually patience ran out and the rockets were unleashed again.
In hindsight it would appear Hamas made a serious miscalculation
in thinking Israel would loosen the blockade to end the shelling

Anyway, how can Hamas end the war? It is not like they have their
knee on Israel's throat that they can show mercy and let Israel up.

There is a reason I keep speaking of the Zionists. It is because Hamas
also speaks of them. It is Zionist Israel Hamas vows to destroy.
Not Israel. Hamas has accepted the two-state solution.
They have expressed a willingness to agree to a cease-fire
with an Israel which exists within the 1967 borders. They have also agreed to make peace with a non-Zionist Israel which does not attack them for 40-50 years. Not exactly ideal, but within the internationally accepted framework.

Meanwhile Israel does nothing to promote peace or show a willingness
to abide by the two state agreement. They give free hand to the Zionists,
announcing plans for new settlements on the west bank and the expansion
of earlier ones. They have recently forced Palestinian removal from another neighbourhood in Jerusalem. They openly declare they will always
control all of Jerusalem although the framework calls for divided, shared or international control.

I am convinced only Israel can bring peace.
They can do this only by ceasing to be Zionist Israel.
I am so sorry Ariel Sharon lies in a comma these last four years.
I think he saw this truth, had the political muscle,
and was in the process of making it so.

If I were a conspiracy theorist ....

I'm not. It probably was a legitimate, untimely and very unfortunate for Israel stroke.

Last edited by rabble; 08-11-2010 at 02:03 AM.
 
Reply With Quote
  #200  
Old 08-11-2010, 02:07 AM
deepsand's Avatar
deepsand deepsand is offline
Rest In Peace 1946 – 2013
 
Join Date: 01-14-10
Location: State College, PA
Posts: 14,946
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Hamas "agreed to make peace with a non-Zionist Israel?"

Precisely what is that?

Has not Hamas taken the position that the mere existence of Israel is a Zionist act?

Has Hamas renounced its Charter?

I do not concur that Israel can unilaterally bring about peace; but, I do allow that, being the stronger combatant, it is incumbent on them to take the first step.

As for Sharon, I wholeheartedly concur that, but for, ... .

To return to a point I earlier raised, which brought no response, how is it that, other than covert military aid from Iran, a predominately Persian Shia nation, no Sunni Arab nation stands by Hamas?

__________________
 
Reply With Quote
Go Back   Webmaster Forum > The Webmaster Forums > Forum Lobby > Controversial Social Issues

Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


V7N Network
Get exposure! V7N I Love Photography V7N SEO Blog V7N Directory


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:51 PM.
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.
Copyright © 2003 - 2018 VIX-WomensForum LLC