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  #161  
Old 07-10-2010, 10:51 PM
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Top 10 Myths about the Palestinian conflict. An interesting read.
 
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  #162  
Old 07-20-2010, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by davidallen View Post
I think most ordinary Americans and Canadians, including those of Jewish origin, do not agree with a policy of unconditional support for the increasingly fanatical direction of Israeli policy.
Fallaciously assumes that "most ordinary Americans and Canadians" believe there to be "a policy of unconditional support."

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  #163  
Old 07-20-2010, 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted by menj View Post
Top 10 Myths about the Palestinian conflict. An interesting read.
I was going to address some of the myths perpetrated by "Top 10 Myths;" but, since you've been banned, I'm saved the time.

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  #164  
Old 07-20-2010, 08:47 AM
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David had to leave because he forgot we only allow one ID per person and NO IDs for returning ban evaders.
 
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  #165  
Old 07-22-2010, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepsand View Post
I was going to address some of the myths perpetrated by "Top 10 Myths;" but, since you've been banned, I'm saved the time.

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I would like it if you addressed some of the myths perpetrated by "Top 10 Myths;". While obviously biased in a pro-arab way, I found the article to be essentially factual and thought provoking.
 
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  #166  
Old 07-22-2010, 05:18 PM
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Begin by looking to the inherent assumption made by the author that "nation" and "state" are sufficiently equivalent so as to be conflated.

Then, note that the author speaks as though Palestine existed as an Arab "nation-state" prior to the formation of the state of Israel.

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  #167  
Old 07-25-2010, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by deepsand View Post
Begin by looking to the inherent assumption made by the author that "nation" and "state" are sufficiently equivalent so as to be conflated.

Then, note that the author speaks as though Palestine existed as an Arab "nation-state" prior to the formation of the state of Israel.

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I suppose what you are saying is that Palestine has no right to exist within secure bounders and that they also have no right of self-determination because Palestine was not a nation state prior to the formation of Israel as a state?

Sorry, I see huge problems with this conclusion. One is that Palestine was recognized as a distinct territorial area under both British and French mandates after the fall of the Ottoman Empire.
 
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  #168  
Old 07-25-2010, 03:11 PM
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One would be hard pressed to logically draw such conclusion from my words.

The facts are that:
  • Nations and States are two distinctly different things;
  • The two have converged and divurged in greatly varying degrees throughout the course of history; and,
  • Such will inevitably continue to so vary.

The author of said "Myths" holds the mistaken position that his claims are somehow different from and superior to all other such claims.

In fact, using his own argument, one can equally well argue that Palestine, being the ancestral home of the Nation of Hebrews, is rightfully their State.

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  #169  
Old 07-26-2010, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepsand View Post
One would be hard pressed to logically draw such conclusion from my words.

The facts are that:
  • Nations and States are two distinctly different things;
  • The two have converged and divurged in greatly varying degrees throughout the course of history; and,
  • Such will inevitably continue to so vary.

The author of said "Myths" holds the mistaken position that his claims are somehow different from and superior to all other such claims.

In fact, using his own argument, one can equally well argue that Palestine, being the ancestral home of the Nation of Hebrews, is rightfully their State.

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Disagreement will remain forever if we (the nations of the earth) allow it to do so. This is why the 'two-state' solution must be so vigorously worked toward by all involved parties.

If one takes the Oslo accord as a starting point it is easy to see Israel as
the current aggressor. Israel is every day allowing new settlement on the west bank and effectively occupies (with corridor roads and safe areas) 44% of the west bank. Israel conducts targeted attacks which often leads civilian deaths and intentional damage to necessary civilian infrastructure. These; along with the boycott of Gaza, draconian control checks, along with conducting arbitrary arrest and detention, prove the Israel have reduced Gaza to little more than an internment camp, a prison by default for the Palestinian people of Gaza.

This is no way to run a planet where the ultimate goal is peace and justice for all.

The US has little choice but to support such actions by it's staunch ( maybe ) ally Israel. We do the same
To affirmatively condemn Israel would be to condemn ourselves.

Last edited by rabble; 07-26-2010 at 10:32 AM.
 
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  #170  
Old 07-26-2010, 03:09 PM
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The underlying problem is that Nations and States rarely even closely coincide, let alone precisely do so.

Unless and until each accepts such as immutable fact, and learns that each must accommodate the other by embracing commonalities of interests, conflict will continue.

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  #171  
Old 07-27-2010, 03:06 PM
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UK Prime Minister spoke in Turkey today about the situation in Gaza and described Gaza as a "prison camp".


Quote:
David Cameron used a visit to Turkey to make his strongest intervention yet in the intractable Middle East conflict today when he likened the experience of Palestinians in the blockaded Gaza Strip to that of a "prison camp
and went on to comment about the assault on the Gaza flotilla
Quote:
The Israeli attack on the Gaza flotilla was completely unacceptable," he said. "I have told prime minister [Benjamin] Netanyahu we will expect the Israeli inquiry to be swift, transparent and rigorous. "Let me also be clear that the situation in Gaza has to change.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...za-prison-camp
 
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  #172  
Old 07-27-2010, 05:38 PM
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Cameron is just trying to score some political points so as to distance himself from the past actions of the Labor Party; and, divert domestic attention away from the economic problem that's now his to deal with.

His statements characterizing the Israeli naval action as an "attack," and ignoring the fact that it is Hamas who are responsible for the conditions there, are pure unadulterated political posturing.

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  #173  
Old 07-27-2010, 11:24 PM
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Occupation 101: Voices of the Silenced Majority
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  #174  
Old 07-28-2010, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepsand View Post
Cameron is just trying to score some political points so as to distance himself from the past actions of the Labor Party; and, divert domestic attention away from the economic problem that's now his to deal with.

His statements characterizing the Israeli naval action as an "attack," and ignoring the fact that it is Hamas who are responsible for the conditions there, are pure unadulterated political posturing.

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Actually as far as I can see he is not distancing himself from the labour party at all, he gets no points here so far as I can see and it merited not a lot of news coverage, certainly nothing to detract from the major cuts they are implementing.

Sorry forgot that it was Hamas that blocked the borders and the ports, must be getting old forgetting such things. And some of those items of food that got blocked really must be being used to build nuclear weapons.

Looks to me, and I really don't like the guy or most of his politics, as though he stated it as it is.
 
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  #175  
Old 07-28-2010, 05:22 PM
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Sorry forgot that it was Hamas that blocked the borders and the ports, must be getting old forgetting such things. And some of those items of food that got blocked really must be being used to build nuclear weapons.
Who keeps firing rockets into Israel?

Who sees to it that the average citizen of Gaza is at the bottom of the food chain in all respects?

Wouldn't by any chance be Hamas, now, would it?

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  #176  
Old 07-29-2010, 01:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepsand View Post
Who keeps firing rockets into Israel?

Who sees to it that the average citizen of Gaza is at the bottom of the food chain in all respects?

Wouldn't by any chance be Hamas, now, would it?

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Who started this from the beginning?
 
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  #177  
Old 07-29-2010, 02:22 AM
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Cameron seems to be in harmony with the churches, the Methodist Church recently called for a boycott on goods from Israeli settlements in Palestinian territory (those settlements could not have anything to with why the rockets have been fired could they?) and recognises, along with the majority of nations that the occupation is illegitimate under international law.
Quote:
The Methodist Church has today voted to boycott all products from Israeli settlements in the Palestinian territories, and to encourage Methodists across Britain to do the same.

The decision is a response to a call from a group of Palestinian Christians, a growing number of Jewish organisations, both inside Israel and worldwide, and the World Council of Churches. A majority of governments recognise the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories as illegitimate under international law.............The goal of the boycott is to put an end to the existing injustice.
 
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  #178  
Old 07-29-2010, 05:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepsand View Post
Cameron is just trying to score some political points so as to distance himself from the past actions of the Labor Party; and, divert domestic attention away from the economic problem that's now his to deal with.

His statements characterizing the Israeli naval action as an "attack," and ignoring the fact that it is Hamas who are responsible for the conditions there, are pure unadulterated political posturing.

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Fallacy: Appeal to motive.
If Hitler were to say the sky is blue, does the fact that he's responsible for murdering Jews make the statement false?

Hamas is certainly partially to blame for conditions there, but does Israel bear no responsibility for the conditions in the territory that they've blockaded and bombed?
 
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  #179  
Old 07-29-2010, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightcrawler View Post
Who started this from the beginning?
How far back would you like to go?

If only so far as the current situation in Gaza, that would be Hamas, following Israel's withdrawal from, and Fatah's loss of power in, Gaza.

At the extreme, one must go back to the conflict between Esau and Jacob.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zap View Post
Fallacy: Appeal to motive.
If Hitler were to say the sky is blue, does the fact that he's responsible for murdering Jews make the statement false?
No fallacy, because the statements about the incompleteness and inaccuracy of Cameron's statements are true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zap View Post
Hamas is certainly partially to blame for conditions there, but does Israel bear no responsibility for the conditions in the territory that they've blockaded and bombed?
Primary responsibility lies with Hamas, as it was and continues to be their offensive actions which led to Israels' defensive ones.

BTW, why no mention of the absence of support for Hamas from Arab nations? Or, for example, the fact that, without Egypt's supporting actions, Gaza would not be wholly physically isolated?

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  #180  
Old 07-31-2010, 03:01 AM
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Remind me were Hamas democratically elected and if so is that not what the West is fighting for in Afghanistan and Iraq?
 
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