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Old 05-31-2010, 05:08 AM
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Israel attacked Aid ship near Gaza water act of terrorism?

I was shocked by this new and when I heard they attacked innocent people I also got angry and even ship crew raised white flag, but they continue firing.

Here is the news story

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...aid-fleet.html

and further researching on the topic I am shocked to know Israel did terrorist attacks against America as well in past!!

[YT]<object width="853" height="505"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/fvItZ2GS88A&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/fvItZ2GS88A&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="853" height="505"></embed></object>[/YT]

IMHO, I think strong sanctions should be imposed on Israel so that people of Palestine and other countries remain safe! just wondering whether USA still going to support Israel?
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Old 05-31-2010, 06:11 AM
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We are not from a civilized world?
Obama should take it serious.
 
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Old 05-31-2010, 07:37 AM
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I am sad and appalled.

Perhaps these peace activists have not lost their lives in vain
and their bravery will result in the blockade being lifted.

Free GAZA.
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Old 05-31-2010, 09:55 AM
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The Liberty affair wasn't blacked out. In fact, it was all over the news at the time, as was the Pollard thing.

I think it's wise to take with a LOT of salt, any opinions stated by extremists. David Duke is a self-professed white supremacist, and a former Grand Wizard of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. He is a vocal anti-Semitic, that spews hate wherever he goes.

I have no doubt that Israel acts in her own best interests, just as any other country, including the US, does. But if I want to know the truth about something, I'm not going to accept the opinion of someone like Duke. I wouldn't trust him to give the correct time of day!
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Old 05-31-2010, 11:54 AM
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Don't be so quick to jump to conclusions:

Close-Up Footage of Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking IDF Soldiers

[YT]0IHb8VeV46M[/YT]
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Old 05-31-2010, 12:04 PM
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it would appear not all activists aboard the boat headed to Gaza
were peaceful and some reacted with violence to Israeli
soldiers who repelled onto the deck of the boat.

That is unfortunate.
It will cloud the issue of who was to blame.
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Old 05-31-2010, 12:13 PM
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The fact is that those people were un-armed against Israeli soldiers, and ship was not is Israeli territory it was in international waters.
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Old 05-31-2010, 12:30 PM
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For being "unarmed", they did a pretty effective job of beating the snot out of a bunch of those soldiers. The alternative, of course, under hostile ROE, is to spray the deck with fire while descending. They didn't do that, thank goodness, or the death toll might have been high.

Like the ships that insist on sailing along the Somali coast in spite of knowing that those are pirate waters, this vessel knew full well what it was doing.... running a blockade. They assessed and accepted that risk. I find it hard to believe that anyone would be surprised to learn that Israel is prepared to back up their words with action.

As for being in international waters, IF that proves to be the case, then I think Israel has put itself in a very awkward position.
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Old 05-31-2010, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightcrawler View Post
The fact is that those people were un-armed
Not so. A club is a weapon.
Quote:
against Israeli soldiers
it certainly does seem their commander had a bad strategy for commandeering the ship
Quote:
ship was not is Israeli territory it was in international waters.
It would seem under international law that one has an unassailable right to repel pirates on the high seas.
I am simply saying it will cloud the issue.
It is less likely the activists will receive the unanimous international support
they would have received had there been no such provocation on their part.
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Old 05-31-2010, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightcrawler View Post
The fact is that those people were un-armed against Israeli soldiers, and ship was not is Israeli territory it was in international waters.
Is it a fact?
i think you must do some research before you jump to conclussions.

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Last edited by piet; 05-31-2010 at 01:03 PM.
 
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Old 05-31-2010, 12:45 PM
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Did you see the white flag been raised in video posted by Natural Elements? I heard that they raised the white flag in news on telegraph, but still they invaded.

Quote:
As for being in international waters, IF that proves to be the case, then I think Israel has put itself in a very awkward position.
Israeli spokesman said by itself they were in international waters. And also news came that Israeli forces didn't allow any media coverage and blocked all the communications. So people on that ship can tell the real story when they got free!
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Old 05-31-2010, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piet View Post
Is it a fact?
i think you must do some research before you jump to conclussions.

[YT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2duPV9MQIc[/YT]
The conclusion is 20 people have died from the shots fired by Israeli forces and many wounded...
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Old 05-31-2010, 12:58 PM
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IDF - Navy Warns Flotilla (31 May 2010)

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Last edited by DocSheldon; 05-31-2010 at 01:01 PM. Reason: fixed video link
 
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Old 05-31-2010, 01:13 PM
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I'm familiar with the story of the Liberty, so it definitely isnt something nobody ever mentioned. It doesnt really bear any relation to the current incident. My reading of that one sounded like our guys were attacked though blameless, but I've long since ceased to trust the likelihood that any story released outta Washington in an instance of that nature bears the full story. I doubt we will ever know exactly what transpired in that case, and my distrust on that score isnt limited to W@ashington, it pretty much extends to ANY national government in an international incident, *especially* one that involves a shooting with allies on both sides of the gun.

Basically I'll say upfront that if I were in a tiny nation about a thrid the size of Louisianna and was surrounded by various countries that'd at separate times all vowed to eliminate our presence and push us into the sea... I'd be extremely suspicious of any probable threat and would respond with force in the presence of any probable threat.

When their neighbors cease to present constant rhetoric about removing them from the planet then maybe they can feasibly ease off that stance... but as long as they live in a constant threat of deadly force... their ROE are by necessity no less than on a full war footing. Given the well documented history of Muslim combatants abusing the a white flag AND hiding combatants behind civilians v/ women / children... they're gonna have to rehabilitate their own misuse of the rules of engagement if they want others to play nicely with them.

Bottom line, I dont know all the specifics of the current sistuation, and like Doc I wouldnt trust anything David Duke said on a bet... but I can see in the current scenario how the rules of engagement for the Israeil's might not be as trusting as those of the US troops deployed elsewhere. Israel's existence is under a constant threat and they have little room for error when it comes to dealing with a perceived threat.
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Last edited by robjones; 05-31-2010 at 01:21 PM.
 
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Old 05-31-2010, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robjones View Post
When their neighbors cease to present constant rhetoric about removing them from the planet then maybe they can feasibly ease off that stance... but as long as they live in a constant threat of deadly force... their ROE are by necessity no less than on a full war footing. Given the well documented history of Muslim combatants abusing the a white flag AND hiding combatants behind civilians v/ women / children... they're gonna have to rehabilitate their own misuse of the rules of engagement if they want others to play nicely with them.
Not that I'm commenting on this particular incident, but do you see, Rob, where this stance is basically a blank cheque for the Israelis to shoot muslims first and ask questions later?
That's a slippery slope, my friend, as I'm sure you realize.

The facts as they stand, seem to be that a boat carrying aid from Turkey was boarded in international waters by Israelis with guns. I ask you, if it were your boat, would you not consider that an aggressive act? Would you be inclined to defend yourself and your boat? If they were transporting weapons, I could see a point made for the Israelis, although we're still talking about international waters here. But they weren't. They were bringing aid.
 
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Old 05-31-2010, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zap View Post
Not that I'm commenting on this particular incident, but do you see, Rob, where this stance is basically a blank cheque for the Israelis to shoot muslims first and ask questions later?
That's a slippery slope, my friend, as I'm sure you realize.

The facts as they stand, seem to be that a boat carrying aid from Turkey was boarded in international waters by Israelis with guns. I ask you, if it were your boat, would you not consider that an aggressive act? Would you be inclined to defend yourself and your boat? If they were transporting weapons, I could see a point made for the Israelis, although we're still talking about international waters here. But they weren't. They were bringing aid.

Zap, I see your point, but I think the facts are more accurately stated this way:

"a boat from Turkey was boarded in international waters by Israelis with guns, while trying to run an Israeli blockade."

Why they were running a blockade has nothing to do with the issue, IMO. Now whether or not that blockade was legitimate, and whether or not the vessel was in international waters, are different issues, that may well have merit. But I would remind you that most coastal blockades take place in international waters. I have participated in them. The US, as a matter of record, always sets up its blockades in international waters bordering the region, and exercises its searches on vessels that want to pass, or it turns them away. I believe the same is true of HMS vessels from the UK.
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Old 05-31-2010, 02:08 PM
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Sorry Zap,

The facts as they stand - there is a naval blockade!

MFA Legal Expert on Gaza Aid

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Old 05-31-2010, 02:31 PM
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No argument from me there Zap... my point was that when three of the four points of your compass point to people that have stated their intent to kill you and the 4th points to the sea you dont have the same ability to worry about skippery slopes that those of us in safe and secure settings enjoy.

They weren't stopping a boatload of rowdy skiers, they were boarding a boat that was running a blockade. That's a code-red finger-on-trigger scenario unless you just wanna end up DRT (dead-right-there)..

Like you, I'm not really addressing hard specifics of the case because those are still surfacing and I'd feel premature. Just talking about the environment in which the action took place having an impact on the dynamics.
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Old 05-31-2010, 03:27 PM
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Before this thread reaches the point of no return, I do want to caution all members to take a moment to review our policies for the Controversial Social Issues of our community.
I am allowing this thread because it is world news and should be discussed. However, the discussion will be handled in a respectful manner at all times.
 
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Old 05-31-2010, 04:59 PM
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Of the eight voyages to Gaza in the past, they've arrived successfully in Gaza five times.
So, you could hardly blame them this time for thinking they might be allowed through the blockade.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/....flotilla.aid/
 
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