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  #61  
Old 11-27-2010, 02:21 PM
patrickz patrickz is offline
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  #62  
Old 11-27-2010, 03:23 PM
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And unfortunately, your underwear are not "your property" since some nutball decided to hide a bomb in his. You can't take your house on a plane.
And you pretty much summarized my problem with the TSA. These idiots have been reacting for 10 years now. There is not a damn thing proactive about them. We have a bunch of monkeys running the zoo.

The poor agents in the field have to follow whatever orders they are given.

Last edited by ScriptMan; 11-27-2010 at 03:23 PM. Reason: filed to field
 
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  #63  
Old 11-27-2010, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by txshellie View Post
I don't think that patting down or body scanning everyone can be considered equivalent to the mass round up and extermination of millions of people - Jews, Christians and Catholics alike were gassed. Ignoring the scent of human flesh burning is not the same as thinking that body scans and pat downs are just fine to keep people from smuggling explosives onto a plane.
The point was that it is conditioning people to accept further invasions. If we were to jump from where we were 50 years ago right to where we are today there would be no TSA screenings. The same with Hitler. He didn't start the ovens on day 1. The same with child molesters. People learn and become accustomed to things they would never accept otherwise.

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And unfortunately, your underwear are not "your property" since some nutball decided to hide a bomb in his. You can't take your house on a plane.
That's totally false. Property does not lose it's status just because one person does something crazy with it. People have done a whole lot worse things in their houses than I have ever done in my underwear. err...you know what I mean.

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I think the core issue is that everyone can choose not to fly. That is where you have liberty. You have the right not to fly.
That is theoretically true. No one is drug onto a plane. But in this situation most of the flyers have had their holiday tickets arranged for a long time. Yes, they could walk away from their tickets and their families when the government changed the laws but should they have been required to?

But its even more than that. Many people are required to travel for business. Would you have them quit their jobs? Many people live distant from their family. Would you deny them visits?

What if we had a car bombing done by someone who had the bombs in their underwear? What if the government then decided the reasonable way to protect us from the next bomb of this type was to have checkpoints on the roads coming into every town and everyone entering or leaving had to have an xray bodyscan or pat down? Is that reasonable? What if they installed them on the door of every home and building and you had to pass through them and have the info electronically transmitted to a monitoring site that dispatched security if you had anything suspicious on your body? Those seem far-fetched because they have not happened yet, but what prevents them from happening tomorrow?

There is a whole long line of case law that has all kinds of limitations on law enforcement and what kind of search and seizure they can do. There is not imminent danger, there is no probable cause and there is nothing easily discoverable that would make further inquiry reasonable.

There is nothing on this planet that can make me believe that it is okay for someone to touch me or especially my family in places that I teach the kids no one should ever touch them. And then to tell me it's a $10,000 fine if I refuse. H*ll to the no.
 
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  #64  
Old 11-27-2010, 06:02 PM
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An afterthought...

If they are so concerned about explosives making their way onto the planes why don't their use sniffer dogs to sniff every passenger instead of body scanners ans pat downs. I believe it is widely accepted that dogs can detect even minute particles if trained.
 
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  #65  
Old 11-27-2010, 08:23 PM
snakeair snakeair is offline
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At the family party i was just at, i was talking to my dad's friend who travels around the world for business related stuff and he said he is OK with this airport scan pat down stuff. Since he is used to traveling out of the state and country all the time, he don't put on certain cloths that would cause the metal detector to go off. Of course he said that he was picked randomly for a pad down a week ago and he asked for a woman to do it. They said no and had a man do it. He felt a little uncomfortable in the way he was searched.

He is ok with this new policy because well... he has to be because part of his job is traveling around the world to deal with clients. Now for the folks who travel maybe once a year having to go through all this stuff, i could see why they would be upset but really nothing we can do. I don't think anything will change. I just hope we have no more issue's with planes in the air. If we do then that means, this new pad down thing did nothing to fix the issue's.

Still i don't like the fact that little kids get pad down's. My dad's friend said he saw a little boy get pad down and he was really upset about that. What are the parents going to say to there son when they know there kid has to get a pad down by a stranger? Wave one of those metal detector wands over the kid instead so he don't have to be touched.
 
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  #66  
Old 11-27-2010, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txshellie View Post
I don't think that patting down or body scanning everyone can be considered equivalent to the mass round up and extermination of millions of people - Jews, Christians and Catholics alike were gassed. Ignoring the scent of human flesh burning is not the same as thinking that body scans and pat downs are just fine to keep people from smuggling explosives onto a plane.
Jake has it correct. I never intended to equate scans and pat downs some insist are akin to groping with killing millions of people. Nor does your resort to hyperbole refute the point I was attempting to make.

Quote:
Originally Posted by txshellie View Post
Yes, we do need to keep government in check.

It's amazing to me that when government wants to take 35, 40, 50% or more of our income in taxation, no one complains about rights, liberty and personal property.
I agree with you on taxes. They are too high for some, especially the poor
and the lower middle class. I also think they are too low on the rich and I hope the democrats can keep the republicans from extending their unwarranted tax cut extension for the rich. I especially would not like language making an such an extension permanent.

However, Taxes viewpoints are no relative to a person who objecting to warrant less searches being conducted upon them without probable cause.
The lame stream media has been pushing the statistic showing 82% of
people don't object to the intrusion while totally downplaying the fact that 18% DO object!

The purpose of the bill of rights is not to protect majorities. Majorities can change the law at will. It is minorities, like the 18% who object, who's rights are upheld by the 4th amendment.

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Originally Posted by txshellie View Post
The government/airlines have the right to police the industry in the way they see fit at the moment.
I'm not sure. Do you think an airline can actually opt-out of the TSA security requirements?

Quote:
Originally Posted by txshellie View Post
People may stop choosing to be evil - blowing people up - I'm especially looking forward to that as well.
Maybe the United States could make the first move in that direction.
I would like to see that. Too bad we can't invite the terrorists to a peace conference.
Maybe we could quit killing innocent Pakistani and Afghan civilians with 'precision' drone strikes and stuff.
Think that might make those 'really evil' guys stop blowing up people?

Last edited by rabble; 11-27-2010 at 10:21 PM.
 
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  #67  
Old 11-28-2010, 04:33 PM
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I found the following of interest.

http://laliberty.tumblr.com/post/165...gainst-the-tsa
 
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  #68  
Old 11-28-2010, 06:52 PM
dWhite dWhite is offline
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Originally Posted by boxfiddler View Post
That was one hell of a long read, but a good one.
 
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  #69  
Old 11-28-2010, 08:58 PM
NewMedia422 NewMedia422 is offline
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Nobody lives in a Democracy. 99% of the world is a "democracy" or "republic", (Iran and North Korea have elections too). But the greek philosophers all agreed that first democracy was worse than autocratic kings (due to the power-hungry maniacs like Hitler having a chance to inherit power thru lies, trickery, etc.) , and second that IF you were going to have one, it had to be with sortition (lottery; for example jury duty is sortition rather than election).

"it is thought [by the Greeks who invented democracy] to be democratic for the offices to be assigned by lot, for them to be elected is oligarchic" - Aristotle

Whenever I visit a new country in the East or West, my conversations often go like this:

me: "so what is your type of government?"
them: "democracy"
me: "so can you become president?"
them: "definitely not."
me:"why not?"
them:"It requires a lot of money and power"
me: "So do you really think that is a Democracy?"
them: "No, I guess not"

All I did is use socrates method of asking questions and they can answer for themselves it's not really a democracy.

That pretty much sums up every political system on the planet. To get power requires the willingness to lie to the public's face, fundraise from special interests, etc. In one of the many ironies of histories, autocratic forms of government have shown to be far more "democratic" in the treatment of their people and promote based on merit. Democratic governments are almost always autocratic against their own people and nepotistic when it comes to political appointments. (Like Lisa Murkowski getting appointed by her father to his Senate seat. Thanks daddy!).

Almost all genocidal governments were Republics. Starting with the first republic, Rome (we share a lot of similarities to it: pre-emptive wars, "founder" worship, etc.) which consistently practiced genocide and democide (such as against the Dacians). Weimar Republic, Soviet Republic, and the People's Republic of China all had famous genocidal maniacs who ran them. All of them got their first steps to power thanks to a "vote". (Hitler by popular election, Stalin by a local worker's council vote for his first post, and Mao was elected by the 3rd PRC congress).


In summation: you're no more free than anyone else. History has always been full of tyranny, but frankly, Democracy is far more restrictive and "autocratic" than even most of the worst tyrannies of the past. There is also a threat of a global democratic government forming that would make it impossible even to flee from it.

There is a reason the scum leaders of the past "force" democracy. WW1, forced democracy lead to Hitler and 6 million dead. Now in Iraq/Afghan, it's caused hundreds of thousands to die, and for what? Iraq even signed a defense pact with Iran. Nothing changed, if anything it's worse now.

Legislator is a career that should never exist. When you give people a JOB to write restrictions (laws) on other people all day, can you really be surprised that they restricted you?

Last edited by NewMedia422; 11-28-2010 at 09:05 PM.
 
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  #70  
Old 12-07-2010, 10:56 PM
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This is sooooooooooooooooo bad but so funny.

[YT]2Qdb6wC0Iz4[/YT]
 
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  #71  
Old 12-08-2010, 12:09 AM
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That belongs in the Uberific-Wondertastic Hooha thread! lol!
 
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  #72  
Old 02-21-2011, 08:49 PM
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TSA "needs to see and touch"

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...writethru.html

Quote:
Rep. Sharon Cissna, D-Anchorage, underwent a body scan as she was preparing to leave Seattle-Tacoma International Airport on Sunday. In a statement released late Monday, she said scan results displayed - as they had during a prior episode three months earlier - the scars from her breast cancer.

This caught the attention of the Transportation Safety Administration, Cissna said, but she refused to submit to the "invasive, probing hands of a stranger" this time.

"Facing the agent I began to remember what my husband and I'd decided after the previous intensive physical search. That I never had to submit to that horror again!" she said. "It would be difficult, we agreed, but I had the choice to say no, this twisted policy did not have to be the price of flying to Juneau."

Cissna's chief of staff, Michelle Scannell, said Cissna had had a mastectomy. The TSA, on its website, says security officers "will need to see and touch your prosthetic device, cast or support brace as part of the screening process."
Funny, in Japan we don't do any of that and we don't have airplanes exploding. What's up with you Americans? Paranoid much? Police state much?
 
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  #73  
Old 02-21-2011, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by John Scott View Post
Funny, in Japan we don't do any of that and we don't have airplanes exploding. What's up with you Americans? Paranoid much? Police state much?
Oh gosh John, it has been awhile since I had the pleasure of having to remind you that we don't make comments like that about groups as a whole. I have missed you!

Did ya figure it was time to stop in to raise a lil heck?

Quote:
With recent events in the news, I think it is important that we take a moment to make sure our members understand where the fine line is between an open discussion vs. an inflammatory topic that may trigger hate type debates.

As an example, it is perfectly okay to have discussions concerning racism as a whole and how that has an impact on society. When it comes down to it, more often than not, communication is the key to finding solutions to many of the social issues in our lives today. HOWEVER, it is not okay to have discussions which attack groups of people as a whole, incite hate, or uses personal opinion as fact to open a discussion.

http://www.v7n.com/forums/controvers...ry-topics.html
Unless you have renounced it since we last spoke, I believe you are still an American ya brat!
 
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  #74  
Old 02-21-2011, 09:25 PM
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I missed the meeting the day we all jointly decided to do that... Dentist appointment.
 
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  #75  
Old 02-21-2011, 10:33 PM
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I don't think there are too many people pleased about the new TSA rules. However, I am also hearing a lot of people admit that they do feel safer when they fly now, knowing the person sitting next to them when through the same search that they did.

I am curious though, has it been proven to be a safer pat down?
 
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  #76  
Old 02-21-2011, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Cricket View Post
I don't think there are too many people pleased about the new TSA rules.
You live in a nation where the majority controls the laws. If the majority did not in fact love the draconian laws, which you seem to be defending, then they wouldn't be lawful.

And yes, we can do a lot of things to make people safer. We could cage them all in padded rooms. Nobody would get hurt then. The point is that sense of security comes at a price: the loss of freedom.
 
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  #77  
Old 02-21-2011, 10:47 PM
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For what it is worth, I actually do not have a problem with the scanners. My issue is with the new level of pat downs which in my opinion are far too invasive.

What I don't understand is that we don't need planes to cause a lot of damage, so why is the security specific to planes?
 
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  #78  
Old 02-21-2011, 10:58 PM
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I've been looking into traveling by ship. It actually appeals to me quite a lot. Beyond the less invasive security procedures I mean. What a pleasant and relaxing way to get to Europe...
 
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  #79  
Old 02-22-2011, 12:01 AM
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I could be wrong, but most of the polls I have seen have asked specifically about the scanners, not about the level of pat downs. Most I have spoken with, don't like the scanners but they are understanding of them.

I have a lot of thoughts about this topic, but much like many Americans, my feelings are mixed. On one hand, I want increased security levels, but ones that make sense and actually increase our level of safety. After the attack on the FortHood, Texas base though, I began to realize that in reality hindsight is 20/20. Yeah, we could have prevented it. We didn't. Did we learn from it though? It doesn't take an airplane to implement an attack right here on our homeland....

I have a feeling that most Americans don't think we have a say in what rules TSA enforces. What action can we take beyond speaking out, and taking care with our vote in the next election?

In the end, like most things in life, I think it comes down to balance. Much like Zap mentioned in his frog story earlier, bit by bit we are losing our freedom in the name of security. The question is, how much freedom are will willing to trade?

@Muddy - I so want to take a cruise someday!
 
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  #80  
Old 02-22-2011, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
I've been looking into traveling by ship. It actually appeals to me quite a lot. Beyond the less invasive security procedures I mean. What a pleasant and relaxing way to get to Europe...
Except for the ice bergs...

Does sound like fun though. It would be nice to have the time to spend relaxing like that.
 
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