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  #281 (permalink)  
Old 12-15-2010, 09:41 AM
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If Kofi is credible on this topic... maybe we could make Jeffrey Daumer a food critic

Quote:
Originally Posted by zap
I didn't bring that charge originally. Kofi Annan did.
I do agree with the former Secretary General of the UN on that point, though.
The US did not have a mandate from the UN to invade Iraq that second time. Therefore, it was an illegal war.
Zap, even if you liked what he said, you might recall that Kofi had a few personal oxes gored when Saddam Hussein lost power.

The UN under Kofi's control was a joke...
The Oil-for-food scandal that was supposed to be humanitarian aid for the citizens of Iraq while they were under embargo was corrupt as hell and became a way for Saddam to siphon billions from the same UN who had sanctions in place. The the corruption was ignored.

Saying "Ignored" is generous...
...since a Swiss company in the Oil for food scam had Kofi's son as a "consultant. He continued to receive money from Cotecna half a decade after ceasing to work for em. Saddam used Oil-for-food funds to buy friends in the UN, as he did the kickbacks from those selling goods to Iraq... and all under the noses of U.N. bureaucrats.

Pretty cozy setup, and we just messed it all up
Things were going so well... everyone was making money. Never mind Iraqi civilians were getting brutally slaughtered by Saddam and his sadistic sons at the same time he stole the "humanitarian aid" meant for them... at least UN guys, Kofi's family and corrupt corporations involved in the scam were making a profit by propping up Saddam.
Add the other UN actions under Kofi's watch...

--- the Congo debacle where a bunch of third world thugs acting as UN Peacekeepers reportedly engaged in rape and forced prostitution of the women there,
  • --- add a series of other "peacekeeping" scandals... Bosnia, Burundi to Sierra Leone, Haiti
  • --- the UN's almost response to genocide in Rwanda,
  • --- the slaughter of civilians supposedly under UN protection in Srebrenica,
  • --- Kofi SOLD a UN position for a half million bucks placing German activist Achim Steiner as Executive Director of the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) just months after Steiner helped award Annan $500,000.
  • --- Annan's insistence on creating the farce Human Rights Council... also supported by champions of freedom Burma, Syria, Libya, Sudan, Zimbabwe, even the North Korean dictatorship endorsed the Council.
NOTE: The "Human Rights Council" ended up being the joke US officials expected. It included Algeria, China, Cuba, Pakistan, Russia, and Saudi Arabia. Pardon me if I laugh at hearing that group opine on Human Rights.
Some Iraqi Perspectives of Kofi Annan
Kofi's insistence that the world was not safer with Saddam gone (after all, there were still killings going on there) was rebutted by Iraq's National Security Adviser Mouwaffaq al-Rubaie, who asked...
Quote:
"Doesn't Kofi Annan differentiate between the mass killing of Iraqis by the security and intelligence apparatus of Saddam Hussein and the present indiscriminate killings of civilians, Iraqi civilians, by the al-Qaeda terrorists in Iraq?"
Or as phrased pointedly by Iraq defense minister Hazem Sha'alan...
Quote:
"Where was Kofi Annan when Saddam Hussein was slaughtering the Iraqi people like sheep?"
That's just the highlights (such as they are)
Kofi, thru corruption and mismanagement, took the UN to a comically low ebb of credibility. His personal opinion of the US and of the legality of our actions in Iraq are tainted by his own record of self-interest, conflicts of interest, and lack of interest in the fate of people suffering under brutal regimes.

His opinion isnt worth a bucket of spit. He's no more an authority on the topic than Jeffrey Daumer is a credible food critic.

Last edited by robjones; 12-15-2010 at 10:03 AM.
 
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  #282 (permalink)  
Old 12-15-2010, 09:41 AM
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I want to amend my position on extortion. @robjones nailed it as attempted extortion since the government has not capitulated to Assange's threats.

Attempted extortion is simply a threat that if you do (or don't do) x then I will inflict y harm. That is exactly what Assange has done. He says if you take down my website, prosecute me or basically restrict what I'm doing in anyway I will release this information. http://themoderatevoice.com/94195/as...dds-extortion/

If there is any doubt about what kind of things the file contains all you have to do is step back for a moment and think about wikileaks. What does it do? It releases confidential documents obtained from corporate or government sources. If that is it's mission and if it has in fact processed these documents then why hasn't the "insurance" file been released? There are 3 possibilities:

1. Assange could be bluffing and he really doesn't have anything except copies of insurance policies. Bluffing does not get you out of attempted extortion charges though...it is the threat and demand that are sufficient.

2. Assange just never got around to releasing the documents. That seems improbable since he went to all the effort to encrypt it and it has been available since July. Plus his entire business model is releasing information.

3. It does contain information that would put people at a serious risk that even Assange recognizes.

Rabble, I too found your article interesting. It has many implications...especially to soldiers, but also to business in general. What's your take on it?

The illegality of the war is an entirely separate issue, but suffice it to say the last I checked the US is still a sovereign nation and we do not need the blessings of anyone to protect our national interests. Nor do we need you to agree that we even have national interests that need to be protected.
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  #283 (permalink)  
Old 12-15-2010, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeMoore View Post
Rabble, I too found your article interesting. It has many implications...especially to soldiers, but also to business in general. What's your take on it?
Since the computers are 'presumably' (I don't want to start an argument
over who actually 'owns' air force computers airmen have access too)
air force network controled, they probably have as much right to filter as
corporations or company bosses do and has been upheld in various courts.

I think what I said: that's it is silly.
The information currently being released - diplomatic correspondence -
is not likely to undermine moral. The damaging documents - the Iraq and Afghanistan field reports -
which expose the lie of smart bombs, civilian
casualty avoidance and innocent life protection were back in August.

I guess I think it is an example of Murphy's Law or of an auxiliary axiom:
the person least likely to actually do a job is usually the one in charge.

I find it more interesting that the earlier dump of the field reports is
beginning to creep into this thread.

Could it be the US gov laid low during the earlier field reports because
they were consciously avoiding wider exposure of those far more damaging revelations?
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Last edited by rabble; 12-15-2010 at 04:57 PM.
 
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  #284 (permalink)  
Old 12-15-2010, 04:47 PM
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@Rob: Your opinion of Kofi notwithstanding, it doesn't matter if he raped horses while eating baby seals and burning styrofoam. He was right when he said it was an illegal war and he was the one in a unique position to declare it so at that time. But put him aside for a moment. The US did not have authorization from the UN security council to invade Iraq in March of 2003. The powers that be couldn't wait to get into Iraq, so they went in without it. The war was illegal. Action and consequence.

@Jake: While I applaud your latest link in that it comes close to proof of extortion, but I feel it still falls short and here's why...

1. I still have not heard a threat from Julien's mouth, only the media reporting something that could be construed as a threat or not. Try as I might, and I've looked quite a bit, I can't find any corroborating evidence, only media paid reporters telling us what Julien said. With the state of the media these days, reporting opinions and presenting them as facts, coupled with the fact that Julien has very powerful governments on his back, that's just not good enough. I'd like to hear it from him or see it on his website.
2. On the topic of the report of the threat, the actual report which is the source of the story in the link you provided mentions "Assange says he's receiving serious threats to his safety and that if anything happens to him or Wikileaks, he's prepared to release more classified information to his supporters through other websites". It would be nice to know for sure if that is a direct quote from Julien or not, but even if it is, it could be taken to mean that he will release the documents if he's not left alone. That sounds a lot like extortion, but still leaves room for a crafty lawyer to get him out of it. It could also be taken to mean that if something happens to Julien or his website, he still has the ability to publish the documents by other means. A warning to anyone who thinks killing him will prevent the release of the documents.

But, again, this is all third hand and it would be really nice to have something more concrete.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeMoore View Post
The illegality of the war is an entirely separate issue, but suffice it to say the last I checked the US is still a sovereign nation
So was Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeMoore View Post
and we do not need the blessings of anyone to protect our national interests. Nor do we need you to agree that we even have national interests that need to be protected.
No worries. Your military has proven that they suffer from the same mindset, time and time again.
Doesn't change the fact that the Iraq invasion in March 2003 was an illegal war.
But that's besides the point of this thread.
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  #285 (permalink)  
Old 12-15-2010, 04:56 PM
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BTW, Rob, I'm still trying to decide if your post on Kofi was flawed because it was argumentum verbosium or because it's a good, old fashioned circumstantial ad hominem.

Which would you say would be more accurate?
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  #286 (permalink)  
Old 12-15-2010, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
US did not have authorization from the UN security council to invade Iraq in March of 2003
If you ever have any suspicion that I think the US needs permission from the UN for anything, I'll nip it in the bud now.

Here's my real opinion: We're a soveriegn nation, the only superpower left on the planet, and the UN is a useless piece of garbage that's failed in it's job, a haven for spies and law offenders hiding behind diplomatic immunity. They collect 20% of it's revenue from the US... expect us to do all the dirty work, then spit on us whenever they get a chance. In my book, five dollar hookers preaching about chastity have more moral authority than the UN.

If they don't like our foriegn policy cause a bunch of third world upholstered outhouses that call themselves countries don't approve they can try sending the troops from those countries to tell us to quit it. The UN needs to be deported so we can build a roller rink or a mall there, anything would be more use. I wouldnt piss on the UN if it caught fire.

Does that explain it or was I too subtle. LOL

Last edited by robjones; 12-15-2010 at 05:08 PM.
 
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  #287 (permalink)  
Old 12-15-2010, 05:06 PM
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Zap - It'd only be ad hominem if I made personal attacks against YOU to dismiss your point.

My earlier post simply points out that Kofi was not qualified to object since his opinion was the result of a conflict of interest. Disagree if you wish, but there isnt a logical fallacy in my argument.
 
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  #288 (permalink)  
Old 12-15-2010, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robjones View Post
Zap - It'd only be ad hominem if I made personal attacks against YOU to dismiss your point.
Or... if you had attacked Kofi to dismiss his point.

I get that you're not a fan of the UN, in practice. But surely you must see the need for a world wide organization where nations have the opportunity to discuss grievances without resorting to dropping bombs on each other?
The UN is the best thing we have to accomplish that.

Has the fall of the League Of Nations and the world war that followed taught us nothing?

The US is a superpower, but that doesn not grant the right to walk all over the rest of us. And don't count China or Russia out just yet.
Arguably, economically, China has the upper hand over the US right now.
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  #289 (permalink)  
Old 12-15-2010, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
The US is a superpower, but that doesn not grant the right to walk all over the rest of us.
If we invade Canada I'll join you in objecting. I do not however extend the courtesy of allowing other countries to dictate our actions.

As far as the WW2 reference, if you're suggesting WW2 wouldnt have happened had the UN been around, I'd say unless the same guys that really handled Hitler stepped to the plate... he might have managed his final solution to its conclusion because some guy that grew up in a hut cast the deciding vote against intervention and the UN Sec-General was taking kickbacks from gold pried outta teeth.

In fairness they'd have probably sent Hitler a sternly worded memo or two for invading Poland.

I liked how we handled Hussein a lot better. Feel free to differ, but I'm just telling you I have lost all respect for the UN. Think I made that clear.
 
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  #290 (permalink)  
Old 12-15-2010, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robjones View Post
If you ever have any suspicion that I think the US needs permission from the UN for anything, I'll nip it in the bud now.

Here's my real opinion: We're a soveriegn nation, the only superpower left on the planet, and the UN is a useless piece of garbage that's failed in it's job, a haven for spies and law offenders hiding behind diplomatic immunity. They collect 20% of it's revenue from the US... expect us to do all the dirty work, then spit on us whenever they get a chance. In my book, five dollar hookers preaching about chastity have more moral authority than the UN.

If they don't like our foriegn policy cause a bunch of third world upholstered outhouses that call themselves countries don't approve they can try sending the troops from those countries to tell us to quit it. The UN needs to be deported so we can build a roller rink or a mall there, anything would be more use. I wouldnt piss on the UN if it caught fire.

Does that explain it or was I too subtle. LOL
Funny. I almost feel that way about Texas.
(I would spare Austin and ScriptMan, and ... oh yeah! my brother who lives in Houston.)

jk. folks. although ... jake Rob. You ought to put down the shot glass and take that
lamp shade off your head.
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Last edited by Cricket; 12-15-2010 at 09:23 PM. Reason: used wrong name by mistake
 
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  #291 (permalink)  
Old 12-15-2010, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zap View Post
The US is a superpower, but that doesn not grant the right to walk all over the rest of us. And don't count China or Russia out just yet.
Arguably, economically, China has the upper hand over the US right now.
Gulliver and the Lilliputians comes to mind.
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  #292 (permalink)  
Old 12-15-2010, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Paterson said that despite WikiLeaks' promise to help fund Manning's legal defense, the organization has not forwarded any funds. CBS News reported last week that WikiLeaks had promised $20,000. But Paterson says that he recently received a brief message from the Wau Holland Foundation in Germany, the main fundraising platform for WikiLeaks, stating that the foundation faces a possible audit by German authorities and that it cannot promise any funds at this time.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/1..._n_797276.html
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  #293 (permalink)  
Old 12-15-2010, 07:58 PM
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and I was trying so hard to stay on topic too.

Jake Rob. It might make you feel good to be all proud and bombastic.
I am sooo familiar with America Right or Wrong. Love It or Leave It.
blah. blah. blah. Might Makes Right. Etc.

It's such an easy shield when reason fails.
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Last edited by Cricket; 12-15-2010 at 09:23 PM. Reason: used wrong name by mistake
 
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  #294 (permalink)  
Old 12-15-2010, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cricket View Post
This is the first I have learned directly about Bradley's treatment.
I do think 4 months in solitary confinement without even the comfort
of a mattress and blanket is torture.

Why am I oddly not surprised?
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Old 12-15-2010, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabble View Post
and I was trying so hard to stay on topic too.

Jake Rob. It might make you feel good to be all proud and bombastic.
I am sooo familiar with America Right or Wrong. Love It or Leave It.
blah. blah. blah. Might Makes Right. Etc.

It's such an easy shield when reason fails.
I'll cry myself to sleep thinking your opinion of me isn't all that it might be. Throw up a flair when you type a post with substance.
 
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  #296 (permalink)  
Old 12-15-2010, 10:20 PM
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Wikileaks is close to releasing document 1000 of the diplomatic cables. Only 249,000 to go.

Does v7n have enough disk space for 3725 more pages in this thread?
 
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  #297 (permalink)  
Old 12-15-2010, 10:56 PM
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That depends on if I have to pay for the fur we are going to need for the handcuffs in this thread.
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  #298 (permalink)  
Old 12-15-2010, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boblord666 View Post
Wikileaks is close to releasing document 1000 of the diplomatic cables. Only 249,000 to go.
sort of like Chinese water torture, huh?

I've gotten so bored I've gone back to looking at the Iraq - Afghanistan field reports.
Something that got little or no coverage here in the states was US Task Force 373 (TF 373),
an assassination unit responsible for the deaths of many hundreds of
civilians in Afghanistan.

US Corporate Media Downplays Pentagon’s Special Commando Assassination Unit
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Last edited by rabble; 12-15-2010 at 11:26 PM.
 
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  #299 (permalink)  
Old 12-16-2010, 02:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boblord666 View Post
Wikileaks is close to releasing document 1000 of the diplomatic cables. Only 249,000 to go.

Does v7n have enough disk space for 3725 more pages in this thread?

This is quite a small thread compared to the mega thread running in the Forum Lobby - What are you thinking at the moment? with 839 pages.

And I think there's no mention of Wikileaks there.... thank goodness
 
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Old 12-16-2010, 07:13 AM
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regarding the treatment of PFC Bradley Manning.
It would seem he does have a mattress. I'm bad.
It is sheets and a pillow he does not have.

As WikiLeaks’ Assange Freed on Bail, Alleged Military Leaker Bradley Manning Imprisoned Under Inhumane Conditions
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