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Old 11-29-2010, 11:54 PM
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Is WikiLeaks Doing The Right Thing?

WikiLeaks in the news again...


...this time will divulge some corporate juice.


I wonder what everyone thinks about WikiLeaks?
 
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Old 11-30-2010, 12:06 AM
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I think revealing secret things is actually quite healthy.
Most everything they have revealed merely verifies what intellectually curious
thinking people already knew. And, I guess I do like having a source to point to
should I ever decide to say, "See! I told you so."
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Last edited by rabble; 11-30-2010 at 12:09 AM.
 
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Old 11-30-2010, 08:02 AM
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I don't think Wikileak is doing the right thing in my opinion when it comes to military security, military classified and military operations.
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Old 11-30-2010, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post
I don't think Wikileak is doing the right thing in my opinion when it comes to military security, military classified and military operations.
Why?
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Old 11-30-2010, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabble View Post
Why?
Because the guys in Front Lines risk their lifes!

Giving away public intel information or operation feedbacks to ennemies for me is treason, period!
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Old 11-30-2010, 10:18 AM
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Oddly, Bradley Manning, accused of the leaks is not charged with treason.
And; I might ask, how can anyone charge wikileaks with treason since it is an international organization with no national ties?

I understand the sentiment that you are peed off.
I, on the otherhand, feel strangely satisfied.
Since the military is, theoretically, under civilian control
I see no problem with us (the civilians) getting a glimpse
under the hood. I actually hope more brave persons will
step forward and offer up information of a so-called
'classified' nature from higher levels.

I intend to add PFC 1st Class Manning to my heroes list
on myspace. Just haven't gotten around to it yet.

Also, the US gov has reluctantly admitted the wikileaks has not resulted,
so far, (of course until someone leaks secure documents revealing their true thoughts
one can not tell for certain if these admissions are actually truthful admissions) no one has
in reality been endangered because wikileaks has been careful to redact the
identities of those the gov has specifically requested them to do so.
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Last edited by rabble; 11-30-2010 at 10:27 AM.
 
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Old 11-30-2010, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post
Because the guys in Front Lines risk their lifes!

Giving away public intel information or operation feedbacks to ennemies for me is treason, period!
Interesting concept, there.
I'm finding out that there were CSIS secrets being spilled by this leak in US intelligence.
Think about that for a second.

The Canadian government entrusted the US government with certain "secrets" that it can not even share with the Canadian people.
The only reason we even found out about it is because our spy guys shared info with your spy guys and then it got leaked.
Is that not treasonous?
 
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Old 11-30-2010, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zap View Post
The Canadian government entrusted the US government with certain "secrets" that it can not even share with the Canadian people.
The only reason we even found out about it is because our spy guys shared info with your spy guys and then it got leaked.
Is that not treasonous?
Not treason, more like violation of treaties and such.
 
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Old 11-30-2010, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by dWhite View Post
Not treason, more like violation of treaties and such.
Which treaty?
 
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Old 11-30-2010, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Zap View Post
Which treaty?
Not sure? I just used the word as a replacement to treason, since treason is the act of betrayal of one's nation.
 
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Old 11-30-2010, 11:13 AM
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by the definition providedby you in your link:
Quote:
...citizen's actions to help a foreign government overthrow, make war against, or seriously injure the [parent nation]." In many nations, it is also often considered treason to attempt or conspire to overthrow the government, even if no foreign country is aided or involved by such an endeavour.

Oran's Dictionary of the Law (1983)
neither Bradley or WikiLeaks can be charged with treason.
In Bradley's case; wikileaks is not a government.
In WikiLeaks case; they are not attempting to or conspiring to overthrow a government.
It is not treason to throw back the curtain and reveal the wonderful Wizard of OZ.
merely inconvenient for the wizard.

BTW ... if you are really concerned for the soldier's safety ... why not bring them home?
It is not Bradley or wikileaks which put them in harm's way. It was us.
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Last edited by rabble; 11-30-2010 at 11:21 AM.
 
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dWhite View Post
Not sure? I just used the word as a replacement to treason, since treason is the act of betrayal of one's nation.
Precisely my point, which you tried to correct erroneously.
It could be considered treasonous for Canadian spys to supply information to the US spys (a foreign government) that is apparently so secret, it can not be shared with the Canadian public, depending on the information shared.

Spys of all nations must walk a fine line like that in order to work so it's disingenuous of governments (who employ the use of spys) to try to paint wikileaks with the same brush.
 
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Old 11-30-2010, 11:05 PM
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I don't know how Canada defines treason, but in the US it is defined in the constitution. Article III, section 3 says: "Treason against the United States shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort." This has been interpreted by the courts to include giving government security secrets to other countries, even if friendly, when the information could harm American security.

Oran's definition is more akin to sedition which is basically an overt act to overthrow the government.

In my book the actions taken by Manning were treasonous and the publication by wikileaks was morally reprehensible and criminal and they appropriate people within the organization should be prosecuted. Their actions should qualify for prosecution under many accessory statutes as well as RICO and wire fraud for starters.
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Old 12-01-2010, 04:21 AM
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Well, it looks like things are going bad for Julian. He is now wanted by the Interpol. Is this justice or is it payback time?
 
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Old 12-01-2010, 06:24 AM
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Without doubt Manning's act was illegal. That is not to say it was not patriotic.
Times may have changed, but ... I find his act as paralleling the acts of Daniel Elsburg
during Vietnam in releasing the Pentagon Papers.

One thing we learned from this latest document dump is that the US has been illegally dropping bombs on Yeman. How is this less serious than learning the US is illegally expanding the war into Laos or Cambodia? Which in the end is more important; the government's right to keep secrets or the people's right to know?

Yesterday Jimmy Carter, 39th president of the United States, was on the Diane Rheam Show (link to the Interview).
the former ex-president felt the document dump was at best (and he said this with some amusement) an 'embarrassment' for the administration.

I do not understand all the histrionics involving this at all. I believe not receiving this low level glimpse into the secret doings of government would have far more damaging effect in the long run than knowing.
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Last edited by rabble; 12-01-2010 at 06:46 AM.
 
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Old 12-01-2010, 09:59 AM
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Reality Check:
The guy is a member of the US Military. He gave away classified government docs. The technical term for that is espionage. Carries massive penalties. The young private exercised his angst in grand fashion and will probably spend most if not all his remaining life behind bars. The UCMJ doesn't have a lot of flexibility on the subject.

The guy who obtained and published stolen US Govt classified docs committed espionage as well. Doesn't have to be a US citizen for that to be an issue. Since he's facing rape charges in another country, the question is likely just who gets to prosecute. It'd be a good time for him to hunker down and get small.
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Old 12-01-2010, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by robjones View Post
Reality Check:
The guy is a member of the US Military. He gave away classified government docs. The technical term for that is espionage. Carries massive penalties. The young private exercised his angst in grand fashion and will probably spend most if not all his remaining life behind bars. The UCMJ doesn't have a lot of flexibility on the subject.

The guy who obtained and published stolen US Govt classified docs committed espionage as well. Doesn't have to be a US citizen for that to be an issue. Since he's facing rape charges in another country, the question is likely just who gets to prosecute. It'd be a good time for him to hunker down and get small.
And espionage (another word for it is spying) against your country is an act of treason. He will most likely either spend the rest of his life behind bars in Fort Leavenworth, or be put to death.

And on the question of crime in another country, which country is he currently residing in right now? Would you happen to know Rob?
 
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Old 12-01-2010, 01:17 PM
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Not aware of his whereabouts. Haven't really been following it closely, was just surprised to see posts that made it sound like stealing classified government documents and handing them over to some guy in another country is some mild act of civil disobedience, or as if posting said stolen classified documents publicly was a peccadillo.

Even a private knows he's subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice and this action could literally put him in front of a firing squad if that was the verdict rendered by the Court Martial.

This twerp had no way of knowing what each document said, whether he might be potentially compromising sensitive diplomatic efforts, endangering lives, etc. It wasnt heroic, it was irresponsible and violates the oath he swore when he entered the military *voluntarily*.

Actions have consequences, and he took actions for which the consequences to others and his country are deleterious and still unfolding. The consequence they have on him are a matter of military law, and he's put himself up a swift creek without a paddle. He's toast, and that is as it should be.

To err is human. To forgive is not military policy.
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Last edited by robjones; 12-01-2010 at 01:20 PM.
 
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Old 12-01-2010, 02:21 PM
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Interesting, it seems that the revealing of the fact that the US bombs citizens in other countries is regarded as a serious crime rather than the bombing itself.
 
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Old 12-01-2010, 03:09 PM
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If by citizens in other countries you mean scumsucking terrorist nutjobs trying to hide behind a border... then yes, committing espionage against the government you've sworn to preserve and protect against all enemies foreign and domestic is considered a higher crime. Go figure.

Oddly it isn't uncommon to see the same folks that think we should treat our southern border as a mere recommendation act as if our military should treat virtually unpopulated border areas in third world countries as if some magical power makes known killers safe from harm if they can slip across the line.

If the US starts bombing shopping malls and beauty parlors in Ontario, Perth, or Paris for target practice I'll join you in giving a damn... but if covert ops are undertaken to end the career of terrorists attempting to escape the fate they richly deserve... you could put my heart under an electron microscope and you wouldn't be able to detect any concern.

The world isn't a perfect place, and it's harmed more by terrorists than by us breaching a border. That's just reality.
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