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Old 01-08-2011, 12:38 PM
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Congress Woman Plus Others Shot Dead

CNN and other news sources state that "Gabrielle Giffords, a Democratic congresswoman from Arizona, was shot and killed today at a public event outside a grocery store.

A spokesman for the Pima County sheriff says that at least 12 people were shot, with at least 6 fatalities. The Tucson Citizen reports that Rep. Giffords was "shot point blank in the head."

The rift between people of different political and ideological beliefs is very disturbing.

Full story and source: http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/08/...pt=T1&iref=BN1

What are your thoughts on this?

Last edited by snakeair; 01-08-2011 at 12:54 PM. Reason: added a source link
 
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Old 01-08-2011, 12:58 PM
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The wings-nuts arise

Giffords was but one of 10 House Democrats who were harassed & threatened for their support of national health care reform.

Already the wing-nuts are claiming that this is part of a purge of Blue Dogs by the DNC itself.

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Old 01-08-2011, 01:31 PM
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They are now correcting themselves saying Giffords did not die but is in surgery for a head wound.
 
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Old 01-08-2011, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepsand View Post
Giffords was but one of 10 House Democrats who were harassed & threatened for their support of national health care reform.

Already the wing-nuts are claiming that this is part of a purge of Blue Dogs by the DNC itself.

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So, with no information whatsoever on either the shooter or his motives, you're already smearing people? Nice.

In reference to your tagline: That's your opinion. You might try a little later when some facts come out.
 
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Old 01-08-2011, 02:02 PM
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So, with no information whatsoever on either the shooter or his motives, you're already smearing people? Nice.

In reference to your tagline: That's your opinion. You might try a little later when some facts come out.
Say what?

Fact - such posts have already appeared on-line!

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Old 01-08-2011, 03:24 PM
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My most sincere condolences to all those involved.

This is not the way we settle differing political views in a democratic-republic. To do that we use the ballot box.
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Old 01-08-2011, 04:15 PM
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While this not the way we should settle differing political views in a democratic-republic, there are those who claim Jefferson, by way of taking his "Tree of Liberty" quote out of context, as their champion.

What goes unnoticed or ignored is that he also wrote, as part of the same letter, that "The people cannot be all, & always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive."

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Old 01-08-2011, 04:41 PM
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The Crazed Internet Rantings of Jared Loughner, the suspect in custody.

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Old 01-08-2011, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by deepsand View Post
Say what?

Fact - such posts have already appeared on-line!
Fact - You don't know who made those posts nor their motivations for doing so.

Actually, you could have made the posts yourself and still claim that they had "already appeared on-line".
 
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Old 01-08-2011, 05:05 PM
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Fact - You don't know who made those posts nor their motivations for doing so.
Irrelevant to the fact that their content is wholly specious in nature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barr View Post
Actually, you could have made the posts yourself and still claim that they had "already appeared on-line".
And, they may have been posts of your own making.

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Old 01-08-2011, 05:34 PM
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The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. Winston Churchill
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Old 01-08-2011, 06:22 PM
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Good news is current media reporting Giffords is going to survive.

Here's the twitter account of a high school/college friend of the shooter and how she remembers him. http://twitter.com/caitieparker
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Old 01-08-2011, 06:38 PM
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The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. Winston Churchill
A fact not lost on our Founding Fathers, one which led Jefferson to conclude that government had a duty to educate the governed.

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Old 01-08-2011, 06:56 PM
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I was watching the sheriff's press conferance the past 40 minutes. Yes, she is alive after succesful surgury but anything could happen during her recovery.

19 people was shot and 6 confirmed dead as of 10 minutes ago (Last time i was watching t.v.). 2 people had tackled the shooter which prevented more people getting shot. The media is reporting that the clip was an extended clip and not confirming what type of firearm it was. Also the sheriff is stating they have a person of interest in this case they are activly investigating because the shooter they have in custody. This was what the sheriff said on t.v. during the press conference within this past hour.


The congress women's husband is supposed to fly a mission in space this April but dunno if he will make the trip. His twin brother is on the space station right now.

This is very sad news. She was doing a good thing by holding a townhall type meeting in public to talk to the everyday citizen and some nut job walks up firing.
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Old 01-08-2011, 07:06 PM
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According to law enforcement sources, Jared Loughner, the alleged Arizona gunman who shot Rep. Giffords and killed five others, including Federal judge John M. Roll, used a Glock 19, a semi-automatic pistol that was legally purchased on Nov. 30 at Sportman's Warehouse in Tucson
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...T2011010802810

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Old 01-08-2011, 07:12 PM
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Funny how the washington post and the live preference i just watched at 8pm mention different things. In the press conference the sherrif could not mention the type of gun that was used. This is how things get messed up. The media makes guess's or because of the investigation, certain things can not be mentioned.

Before the doctor held a press conference to state she was alive, the media had her dead. Wish the media get the fact's straight for once. Lot's of families and friends are shaken up about this whole thing. Its just sad watching all this right now on t.v.
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Old 01-08-2011, 07:18 PM
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There is neither a single media entity that serves as a repository of facts, nor a single source of such.

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Old 01-08-2011, 08:00 PM
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I am shocked to see so little respect for human life.

All my condolences for the victims' families
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Old 01-09-2011, 05:02 AM
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Before the doctor held a press conference to state she was alive, the media had her dead. Wish the media get the fact's straight for once. Lot's of families and friends are shaken up about this whole thing. Its just sad watching all this right now on t.v
Which is why I don't watch it. Too many news channel with too much air time to fill == to much speculation on the airwaves.
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Old 01-10-2011, 05:06 AM
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From Countdown with Keith Olbermann on MSNBC. Jan 08, 2011 Olbermann: Violence and t

From Countdown with Keith Olbermann on MSNBC. Jan 08, 2011

Olbermann: "Violence and threats have no place in a democracy.
The political rhetoric of the country must be changed to prevent acts of domestic terrorism."

Quote:
Finally tonight, as promised, a Special Comment on the attempted assassination of Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona. We need to put the guns down. Just as importantly we need to put the gun metaphors away and permanently.

Left, right, middle - politicians and citizens - sane and insane. This morning in Arizona, this age in which this country would accept "targeting" of political opponents and putting bullseyes over their faces and of the dangerous blurring between political rallies and gun shows, ended.

This morning in Arizona, this time of the ever-escalating, borderline-ecstatic invocation of violence in fact or in fantasy in our political discourse, closed. It is essential tonight not to demand revenge, but to demand justice; to insist not upon payback against those politicians and commentators who have so irresponsibly brought us to this time of domestic terrorism, but to work to change the minds of them and their supporters - or if those minds tonight are too closed, or if those minds tonight are too unmoved, or if those minds tonight are too triumphant, to make sure by peaceful means that those politicians and commentators and supporters have no further place in our system of government.

If Sarah Palin, whose website put and today scrubbed bullseye targets on 20 Representatives including Gabby Giffords, does not repudiate her own part in amplifying violence and violent imagery in politics, she must be dismissed from politics - she must be repudiated by the members of her own party, and if they fail to do so, each one of them must be judged to have silently defended this tactic that today proved so awfully foretelling, and they must in turn be dismissed by the responsible members of their own party.

If Jesse Kelly, whose campaign against Congresswoman Giffords included an event in which he encouraged his supporters to join him firing machine guns, does not repudiate this, and does not admit that even if it was solely indirectly, or solely coincidentally, it contributed to the black cloud of violence that has envellopped our politics, he must be repudiated by Arizona's Republican Party.

If Congressman Allen West, who during his successful campaign told his supporters that they should make his opponent afraid to come out of his home, does not repudiate those remarks and all other suggestions of violence and forced fear, he should be repudiated by his constituents and the Republican Congressional Caucus.

If Sharron Angle, who spoke of "Second Amendment solutions," does not repudiate that remark and urge her supporters to think anew of the terrible reality of what her words implied, she must be repudiated by her supporters in Nevada.

If the Tea Party leaders who took out of context a Jefferson quote about blood and tyranny and the tree of liberty do not understand - do not understand tonight, now what that really means, and these leaders do not tell their followers to abhor violence and all threat of violence, then those Tea Party leaders must be repudiated by the Republican Party.

If Glenn Beck, who obsesses nearly as strangely as Mr. Loughner did about gold and debt and who wistfully joked about killing Michael Moore, and Bill O'Reilly, who blithely repeated "Tiller the Killer" until the phrase was burned into the minds of his viewers, do not begin their next broadcasts with solemn apologies for ever turning to the death-fantasies and the dreams of bloodlust, for ever having provided just the oxygen to those deep in madness to whom violence is an acceptable solution, then those commentators and the others must be repudiated by their viewers, and by all politicians, and by sponsors, and by the networks that employ them.

And if those of us considered to be "on the left" do not re-dedicate ourselves to our vigilance to eliminate all our own suggestions of violence - how ever inadvertent they might have been then we too deserve the repudiation of the more sober and peaceful of our politicians and our viewers and our networks.

Here, once, in a clumsy metaphor, I made such an unintended statement about the candidacy of then-Senator Clinton. It sounded as if it was a call to physical violence. It was wrong, then. It is even more wrong tonight. I apologize for it again, and I urge politicians and commentators and citizens of every political conviction to use my comment as a means to recognize the insidiousness of violent imagery, that if it can go so easily slip into the comments of one as opposed to violence as me, how easily, how pervasively, how disastrously can it slip into the already-violent or deranged mind?

For tonight we stand at one of the clichéd crossroads of American history. Even if the alleged terrorist Jared Lee Loughner was merely shooting into a political crowd because he wanted to shoot into a political crowd, even if he somehow was unaware who was in the crowd, we have nevertheless for years been building up to a moment like this.

Assume the details are coincidence. The violence is not. The rhetoric has devolved and descended, past the ugly and past the threatening and past the fantastic and into the imminently murderous.

We will not return to the 1850s, when a pro-slavery Congressman nearly beat to death an anti-slavery Senator; when an anti-slavery madman cut to death with broadswords pro-slavery advocates.

We will not return to the 1960s, when with rationalizations of an insane desire for fame, or of hatred, or of political opposition, a President was assassinated and an ultra-Conservative would-be president was paralyzed, and a leader of peace was murdered on a balcony.
We will not.

Because tonight, what Mrs. Palin, and what Mr. Kelly, and what Congressman West, and what Ms. Angle, and what Mr. Beck, and what Mr. O'Reilly, and what you and I must understand, was that the man who fired today did not fire at a Democratic Congresswoman and her supporters.

He was not just a mad-man incited by a thousand daily temptations by slightly less-mad-men to do things they would not rationally condone.

He fired today into our liberty and our rights to live and to agree or disagree in safety and in freedom from fear that our support or opposition will cost us our lives or our health or our sense of safety. The bullseye might just as well have been on Mrs. Palin, or Mr. Kelly, or you, or me. The wrong, the horror, would have been - could still be just as real and just as unacceptable.

At a time of such urgency and impact, we as Americans - conservative or liberal - should pour our hearts and souls into politics. We should not - none of us, not Gabby Giffords and not any Conservative - ever have to pour our blood. And every politician and commentator who hints otherwise, or worse still stays silent now, should have no place in our political system, and should be denied that place, not by violence, but by being shunned and ignored.

It is a simple pledge, it is to the point, and it is essential that every American politician and commentator and activist and partisan take it and take it now, I say it first, and freely:

Violence, or the threat of violence, has no place in our Democracy, and I apologize for and repudiate any act or any thing in my past that may have even inadvertently encouraged violence. Because for whatever else each of us may be, we all are Americans.
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