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Old 03-11-2011, 05:59 AM
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Does God Exist?

This thread is a place to debate the existence of God that arose from the thread Do You Believe In God?

That thread was simply a place for people to state whether they do or do not believe. Here you can come out with guns ablazing to defend your position. We've recently discussed the existence of Satan, but for me at least it was a much more confusing debate because it was really kind of about God without being about God.

So what say you? Does God exist? If so, is He a person or simply a force or presence?
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Old 03-11-2011, 06:25 AM
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.

So what say you? Does God exist? If so, is He a person or simply a force or presence?
Yes! God exists for I feel god as a real person and he has incomparable personality with love, care and deep forgiveness. I can be sure that god is interested in human even though we are too small to matter and too insignificant with respect to entire universe. God has created us and he can understand our feelings and thoughts rather than anyone in the world. God has extended his loving kindness to all those who believe in him .Only faith can please god.
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Old 03-11-2011, 06:35 AM
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While we are at it, why do we ask whether god exists, should we not be asking whether gods exist, or is there only one (if any)?
If there is one god only, is the Christian god the same guy/girl as the Muslim god, as the Hindu gods, as the ....?

To me, god does not exist in the way he/she/it is often described as an external force, some puppeteer who pulls all the strings, or some santa who punishes and rewards.
The closest I can agree with is that all of us have some inner compass/conscience built in, which gets a bit adjusted by our upbringing and culture. It is this internal compass that helps us decide what is right and wrong for us. Some people might call this god.

So, I do not think a god "exists", except in some people's imagination and belief.
And that can be a good thing for some people, as it allows them to make some sense of the world as a result of some conversations with themselves, which they think is a conversation with a god.
What is a problem, is when other people dictate how your god should behave, and take your free choice away by dogma and indoctrination.

I bless myself and all those who love themselves and other like they love themselves
 
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Old 03-11-2011, 07:49 AM
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The creator exists.

Why?

Because we are creation, and creation must have a creator.

Why do you assume that we are created?


Because it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to be in the forms we are in by chance, a car does not assemble itself, a poem does not write itself, a website does not code itself, similarly man has not created him/herself, it is impossible for our eyes to be in the location that they are, imagine if your eyes were under your feet? ponder over the miracle of the eyes, ponder over just the location of your eyes.

The existence of the Creator can be understood by children, He has not made it difficult for us to figure out his existence, rather he has made it easy for all, you don't need to be a graduate from Harvard, this is something that is so clear, it is only denied by the arrogant.

Those who say "there is no Creator" 1. have no evidence for this statement and 2. They go against their natural disposition, going against logic, going against reason.

They are misusing the tools that have been given to us to know that God exists, and they are guilty for that, and they are guilty for lying to themselves and to others and there is not a single excuse to disbelieve.

Last edited by developer; 03-11-2011 at 07:57 AM.
 
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Old 03-11-2011, 10:24 AM
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Old 03-11-2011, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by developer View Post
Because we are creation, ...
Fails to define "creation."

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Originally Posted by developer View Post
Because it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to be in the forms we are in by chance, ...
Draws a conclusion based on facts not in evidence.

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Old 03-11-2011, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by developer View Post
Because we are creation, and creation must have a creator
and a creator must have a creator, and a creator must have a creator, and a creator must have a creator.
Does god have a god he believes in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by developer View Post
Because it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to be in the forms we are in by chance
I don't know about you, but I would like to think that I do not look like my Neanderthal forebears anymore

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Originally Posted by developer View Post
The existence of the Creator can be understood by children
and Santa Claus and the tooth fairy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by developer View Post
Those who say "there is no Creator" 1. have no evidence for this statement and 2. They go against their natural disposition, going against logic, going against reason.

They are misusing the tools that have been given to us to know that God exists, and they are guilty for that, and they are guilty for lying to themselves and to others and there is not a single excuse to disbelieve.
This statement is complete bollocks, imagine if I would argue:
Those who say "there is a Creator" 1. have no evidence for this statement and 2. They go against their natural disposition, going against logic, going against reason.

They are misusing the tools that have been given to us to know that God does not exists, and they are guilty for that, and they are guilty for lying to themselves and to others and there is not a single excuse to [delete: dis]believe.

If I would have made that statement before you made yours, what would you have said?
 
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Old 03-11-2011, 05:30 PM
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and a creator must have a creator, and a creator must have a creator, and a creator must have a creator.
This is a good argument...but for a Creator. You cannot create something out of nothing. Where would the first particle of anything begin if there wasn't someone who always was?

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Originally Posted by Poirot View Post
I don't know about you, but I would like to think that I do not look like my Neanderthal forebears anymore
This argument presumes evolution which is not something which can be presumed.

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Originally Posted by Poirot View Post
and Santa Claus and the tooth fairy.
and math and science and history and, and, and...don't mock the argument because you don't believe it. If you have a way to refute it, then do so.

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Originally Posted by Poirot View Post
This statement is complete bollocks, imagine if I would argue:
Those who say "there is a Creator" 1. have no evidence for this statement and 2. They go against their natural disposition, going against logic, going against reason.
What, then, is your evidence for a lack of a Creator?
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Last edited by JakeMoore; 03-11-2011 at 05:33 PM.
 
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Old 03-11-2011, 05:51 PM
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You cannot create something out of nothing.
To the contrary, particles and their corresponding antiparticles are spontaneously created from the vacuum.

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Originally Posted by JakeMoore View Post
This argument presumes evolution which is not something which can be presumed.
No need for either an assumption or a presumption, as it's demonstrably a fact.

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don't mock the argument because you don't believe it.
The argument is logically fallacious; as demonstrated, it fails by being infinitely recursive.

Attempting to side-step such flaw by way of exiting after a single iteration is arbitrary.

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What, then, is your evidence for a lack of a Creator?
None is necessary. The conjecture is for those who advance it to prove.

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Old 03-11-2011, 06:22 PM
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What, then, is your evidence for a lack of a Creator?
Since when is lack of evidence to the contrary, proof of anything?
Since I have no evidence there are no little green men on the moon, is that proof there are little green men on the moon?

I absolutely have no problem with people believing whatever they like, I happen to believe in a few things myself.
The only problem we are discussing here I thought, is that when people start proclaiming that because they believe something, it must be true.

So, does god exist, maybe yes, maybe not, but the only one with evidence of that if any, will be god him/herself if he/she exists. None of us have any proof for either side of the argument.

To summarize: fine if you believe god exists, but I have no proof of it, so it is OK for me to have a different opinion.
 
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Old 03-11-2011, 07:16 PM
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To summarize: fine if you believe god exists, but I have no proof of it, so it is OK for me to have a different opinion.
Of course it is okay for you to believe anything you would like, but that does not really answer the question does God exist.
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Old 03-11-2011, 07:35 PM
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To the contrary, particles and their corresponding antiparticles are spontaneously created from the vacuum.
Not quite. The "theory" is the short term creation of virtual particles...those that temporarily borrow from energy and then disappear when they pay it back. Even there there is something in the form of energy which precedes the very short term virtual particles.


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No need for either an assumption or a presumption, as it's demonstrably a fact.
Not even remotely a fact. And it takes far greater faith than I could ever muster to believe in.


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The argument is logically fallacious; as demonstrated, it fails by being infinitely recursive.
On if you assume your premise. And of course that one comment was taken out of context. The point was that you don't have to have a Harvard degree or possess a high level of education to understand the existence of God.

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None is necessary. The conjecture is for those who advance it to prove.
No. And certainly not in the context of how the comment arose. It arose when Poirot said it is complete bullocks to someone to say "Those who say "there is no Creator" 1. have no evidence for this statement"
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Old 03-11-2011, 08:32 PM
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Not quite. The "theory" is the short term creation of virtual particles...those that temporarily borrow from energy and then disappear when they pay it back.
Nope, not just conjecture. And, there is no "borrowing" involved, except in the minds of the zero-point energy, i.e. perpetual motion, nuts.

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Not even remotely a fact.
Then you fail to either understand or accept Science.

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Originally Posted by JakeMoore View Post
On if you assume your premise.
The premise is that of the proponents of intelligent design, not mine.

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Originally Posted by JakeMoore View Post
No. And certainly not in the context of how the comment arose.
Poirot merely exposed the logical flaw in the reasoning in question.

The fact remains that those who claim the existence of a metaphysical entity bear the burden of proving such.

Should you persist in insisting otherwise, then I shall claim that there is an invisible massless pink elephant on your nose, and require that you prove otherwise.

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Old 03-11-2011, 10:55 PM
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Yep, God Exists. I strongly believe that. In every religion, every culture in this earth have there own beliefs, stories on God. I have thought the same thing many times that there is something which has created and running this whole world, whole universe. There is something which has created the whole system of living creatures. I think when someone create a movie and the characters play their roles, while watching a movie imagine that the charas don't know anything what will happened next, but the creator of the movie knows everything and it is planned. We all are playing the same role, god have given us a specific character and a role, we don't know what will happened, but the God knows. Imagine about floods, earth quick which can destroy everything in a moment. Imagine about those voices of music, water fall, thunder of clouds, chirp, the new born baby and colors, growth of plants, living creatures one will find and fill ultimate peace. These are the evidence and the great evidence on this earth for God is the mother. God could not reach everywhere that's why he created a mother who takes care of her children and family without expecting anything at all.
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Last edited by rujuta; 03-11-2011 at 11:17 PM. Reason: add some words
 
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Old 03-12-2011, 05:54 AM
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Maybe there is a God that exists, or maybe there isn't.

What I find interesting is how everybody theorises and claims it to be correct based on such minimal knowledge that we have.

We are trying to theorise on a subject that is well beyond our scope.

Science itself claims that things can exist outside of time and that time itself can not escape from the power of black holes. This would mean that for something to exist outside of time, that time would have no bearing on it and it could have always have been as it had no begining.

Science trying to explain God and the science behind the universe is like a 1 year old child who is still grasping basic words, trying to explain quantum physics, it is well beyond our scope of knowledge.

My take (from a scientific standpoint) is that if some intelligent force can exist outside the realms of time and is not affected by it, then one way or another, this is definately a God.

From a non-scientific standpoint - I tend to lean more towards there being a God due to my life experiences.
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Old 03-12-2011, 06:48 AM
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What I find interesting is how everybody theorises and claims it to be correct based on such minimal knowledge that we have.

We are trying to theorise on a subject that is well beyond our scope.
This, two million times this.

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Originally Posted by deepsand View Post
Then you fail to either understand or accept Science.
I am still awed that people refuse to believe in the fact that is Evolution. However, their beliefs are theirs and I won't try to force anything on them.

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Originally Posted by Poirot View Post
To summarize: fine if you believe god exists, but I have no proof of it, so it is OK for me to have a different opinion.
This - it is a belief because you believe, so many people seem to have an issue with this, forcing their beliefs onto others, oppressing their freedom of belief, these are the sort of people that realistically if they had read their ancient holy books would be condemned to eternal damnation, which makes it all the more amusing for me.

Quote:
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
This is the quote I like. I personally believe that I am my own God, that we each control our own destiny, that we each have the power to do what we want, ancient Pagan ideologies, Odinism ideologies etc are my beliefs.
 
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Old 03-12-2011, 07:52 AM
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Nope, not just conjecture. And, there is no "borrowing" involved, except in the minds of the zero-point energy, i.e. perpetual motion, nuts.
Yes conjecture. And name it as you wish, but it still involves an energy exchange which is something.


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Then you fail to either understand or accept Science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan williamson
I am still awed that people refuse to believe in the fact that is Evolution.
Quite to the contrary. Science demands proof. Evolution requires faith. Lay out your conclusive case for evolution. The reason people do not believe in the fact of evolution is that the fact does not exist. It is a theory and one with so many holes in it, it is almost impossible to believe that some people of science take it seriously.


Quote:
Originally Posted by deepsand
Poirot merely exposed the logical flaw in the reasoning in question.
That is ridiculous. You are making the reasoning something it was not. Once again, the reasoning was pointing out how simple it is to understand God, so simple that even a child could do it. The reasoning was not proof of the fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deepsand
The fact remains that those who claim the existence of a metaphysical entity bear the burden of proving such.
Because you say so...because you defined the rules that way...not because that is the way it is. Further, by your set of rules those proclaiming the affirmative non-existence of God would have the burden of proving also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deepsand
Should you persist in insisting otherwise, then I shall claim that there is an invisible massless pink elephant on your nose, and require that you prove otherwise.
By definition an elephant can be neither invisible or massless.
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Old 03-12-2011, 08:10 AM
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This - it is a belief because you believe, so many people seem to have an issue with this, forcing their beliefs onto others, oppressing their freedom of belief, these are the sort of people that realistically if they had read their ancient holy books would be condemned to eternal damnation, which makes it all the more amusing for me.
Huh. Actually the holy books of some the largest faiths say that their way is the true way and that others SHOULD be attempted to be converted. If one is allowed to believe as their faith dictates shouldn't they be allowed to seek your conversion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Williamson View Post
This is the quote I like. "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
This quote shows a misunderstanding of the purpose of God. God is interested in our ultimate good. He looks at the end game of not only individual lives but of all humanity. Just like I do not force my woman to love me and would not want that kind of love, God gives us free choice. We are not required to love Him, but there are consequences if we do not. Much evil is caused by our own or others personal choices. If we want God to give us free choice then we must allow Him to give free choice to all...and when evil people act evil out of their own free choice and will that is a natural consequence of us having free will and choice.

There is also bad which happens outside of free will and choice. I grew up on a farm and like this example. For me rain is good. It produces my family's livelihood. But my friends would always complain about rain because it ruined their plans. Bad and evil is a matter of perspective in many instances.

As to real bad and evil that happens outside of free will and choice there are any number of problems with your quote. For instance it is greatly limited by the immediate. A very basic example of that is when I was 10 I was playing basketball and shattered my arm. It was in the middle of baseball season and seemed like my entire summer was ruined. Later I found out that the break ended up making me a better baseball player because of how the bones healed and how I developed compensating muscles over that summer.
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Old 03-12-2011, 08:12 AM
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Since when is lack of evidence to the contrary, proof of anything?
Since forever. I can prove to you there is no pink elephant in my bedroom by the lack of evidence of its presence there.
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Old 03-12-2011, 08:20 AM
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Quite to the contrary. Science demands proof. Evolution requires faith. Lay out your conclusive case for evolution. The reason people do not believe in the fact of evolution is that the fact does not exist. It is a theory and one with so many holes in it, it is almost impossible to believe that some people of science take it seriously.
You talk of a scientific subject, yet cannot seem to comprehend that scientific terminology may not mean what it means in the layman terms. It is only pro-creationist theology that generally denies evolution, theistic evolution is sometimes their answer.

However, to inform you that perhaps you should read a few more scientific magazines before throwing fact and theory around. I could write a lot of information that I have studied about Evolution, however I am not going to, I was not insulting your belief in creationism and your disbelief in Evolution, as I stated in my post we're all free willed to believe what we wish. If you want to read about Evolution, thousands of scholars far more cleverer than me or you have wrote about it, whether they be Christian, Muslim or Atheist it's irrelevant to me, somebodies theological and religious beliefs will never matter to me as long as they don't oppress freedom of speech and belief.

Scientific Fact:
Quote:
Fact is often used by scientists to refer to experimental or empirical data or objective verifiable observations. "Fact" is also used in a wider sense to mean any theory for which there is overwhelming evidence.
A fact is a hypothesis that is so firmly supported by evidence that we assume it is true, and act as if it were true. —Douglas Futyuma

Evolution is a fact in the sense that it is overwhelmingly validated by the evidence. Frequently, evolution is said to be a fact in the same way as the Earth revolving around the Sun is a fact. The following quotation from H. J. Muller, "One Hundred Years Without Darwin Are Enough" explains the point.
There is no sharp line between speculation, hypothesis, theory, principle, and fact, but only a difference along a sliding scale, in the degree of probability of the idea. When we say a thing is a fact, then, we only mean that its probability is an extremely high one: so high that we are not bothered by doubt about it and are ready to act accordingly. Now in this use of the term fact, the only proper one, evolution is a fact.

The National Academy of Science (U.S.) makes a similar point:
Scientists most often use the word "fact" to describe an observation. But scientists can also use fact to mean something that has been tested or observed so many times that there is no longer a compelling reason to keep testing or looking for examples. The occurrence of evolution in this sense is fact. Scientists no longer question whether descent with modification occurred because the evidence is so strong.

Philosophers of science argue that we do not know mind-independent empirical truths with absolute certainty: even direct observations may be "theory laden" and depend on assumptions about our senses and the measuring instruments used. In this sense all facts are provisional
There are thousands of links on thousands of websites, however I can't foresee myself partaking in this discussion anymore merely because it's a question that cannot be answered by Mankind, I believe in what has been proven, and it has never been proven that there is a God, none of Mankind alive can scientifically prove it.
 
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