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  #201 (permalink)  
Old 05-17-2011, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeMoore View Post
Just when I had hopes that you were grasping this.
Seems that you missed the same point as Zap did.

To repeat, make the distinction between X number of people saying that something happened and 5000+ all saying that nothing happened.

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  #202 (permalink)  
Old 05-18-2011, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepsand View Post
Seems that you missed the same point as Zap did.

To repeat, make the distinction between X number of people saying that something happened and 5000+ all saying that nothing happened.

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It is not Jake and I that are missing somethng here. It's you.
It's possible that there are 5 people aboard a ship that directly saw a body which looks like Bin Laden's and the other 4995 people saw an unidentifiable body because it was wrapped by the time they saw it. So, after the 5 start spreading the word that the body was that of Bin Laden's (which is not proven, simply by comparing the face of a dead man to that of a photograph or from memory) to the rest of the crew who saw "something", you will have your 5000 witnesses to Bin Laden being brought aboard and then dumped.

And, again, (since you have this nasty habit of misrepresenting my statements), let me be clear that I am not saying that this IS what happened. It's simply one scenario which negates your reliance on possibility to explain away any chance of a hoax.

Again, this is pretty elementary stuff, Deep. I shouldn't be surprised, though, that you're so willing to dispense with facts within this thread, since you demand none of your government.
 
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  #203 (permalink)  
Old 05-18-2011, 09:18 AM
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Let's hope that at least a skeleton crew was running the ship, making the beds, cooking the food, fixing the elevators, etc. In which case one could be fairly certain that a good number of people aboard that vessel saw nothing at all. Frankly, it's hard to imagine that even a fraction of the crew actually saw anything, let alone an actual body, let ALONE a recognizable body.
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  #204 (permalink)  
Old 05-18-2011, 09:34 AM
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^^^

Muddy gets it.

C'mere, you!
*Puts Muddy in a headlock and gives him a noogie*
 
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  #205 (permalink)  
Old 05-18-2011, 09:48 AM
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and I still think the real probability of hoax is in Bin Laden ever
having been a villain of the order and magnitude portrayed.
My personal view on this matter is colored by having read a
Kurt Vonnegut novel Cat's Cradle.
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Last edited by rabble; 05-18-2011 at 09:52 AM.
 
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  #206 (permalink)  
Old 05-18-2011, 10:56 AM
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What people are doing here in this thread... is EXACTLY what they(the government want us to do) - Talk about it... be distracted by it.

While they covertly smuggle oil out through an underground pipeline to a turkish port.

Look how long this thread has gone on. The amount of ours people spend typing about something we can do nothing about. Who makes the decision on when we go to war? I don't remember having a chance to vote on it. And even if we did, we would be flooded with mass propaganda influencing our vote.

The US government is always fighting a war on 3 or more fronts.
1. The psychological front to keep the support of the people (this fell apart in Vietnam)
2. The real war
3. The suppression of accurate war information that reaches the american public (leading back to #1 the support of the people)
 
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  #207 (permalink)  
Old 05-18-2011, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NastyBlast View Post
What people are doing here in this thread... is EXACTLY what they(the government want us to do) - Talk about it... be distracted by it.

While they covertly smuggle oil out through an underground pipeline to a turkish port.
and I thought it was natural gas, lithium and opium we wanted in Afghanistan. Did you notice the lack of coverage four US soldiers were
killed in Afghanistan yesterday?
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  #208 (permalink)  
Old 05-18-2011, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by rabble View Post
Did you notice the lack of coverage four US soldiers were killed in Afghanistan yesterday?
The numbers are always hidden Just like the Agenda. it's been this way for years. I used to talk to people on a forum I used to run. The guy there was in Iraq. He told me about how they lost 21 guys the night before from a landmine. The news reported that only 1 person died.

The media will we suppress things in the government's interest. What else do we know besides what the news reports, especially CNN. It's not paranoid, and you don't need to be a conspiracy freak to see that this is how humans acting general( government or not ).

They have lied to the public in the past, like at Pearl Harbor. It is confirmed that approximately 30 min. before the attack on Pearl Harbor a letter was sent from the Japanese Embassy to the White House. Regardless of what you think of the Japanese they have a tradition and code of honor that dates back prior to the invention of firearms. This tradition says that you do not kill a man in his sleep: you allow him to wake, take a weapon, and defend himself. Under this premise it would be an honorable for them to sneak attack without sending prior warning. It would be a disgrace and an embarrassment to the entire nation to do such a thing.

Unfortunately the letter had to go through several screening processes before it could reach the president's office ( but the Japanese of course knew this - they knew it would never reach the office in time to make a difference ).

Regardless of that consider that this now well confirmed fact has been omitted throughout history prior to it being verified. The US government needed the support of the people to justify engaging in Japan in war. They needed people enraged enough to justify the use of what turned out to be nuclear weapons. We are the only nation to ever use nuclear weapons upon an enemy.

The whole point being, as time moves on and these things seem to become less significant as people say "it's all in the past", I will remind them that the government has lied and concealed things in the past, so there is no reason to think they will not do it in the future. when we talk about Pearl Harbor right now and these lies, not many people get all that upset about it we dismiss it as history.

But what about 9/11? what about all the conspiracy theories about that? What if proof surfaces 50 years from now - just like it did with Pearl Harbor.

I believe Osama bin Laden is/was a real person. However the idea that this one man alone is responsible for everything is blatantly absurd. The American public is so nave that they need a - Bad Guy - to point the finger at. We need someone to look at and say "it was him" "he did it" "it's all his fault". when the reality is it to many people and many willing participants possibly even our own government.

They murdered our own president JFK! their mistake was doing it in public. But they basically had to do it in public or else the conspiracy theory would've been even higher. So it was basically the first attempt to publicly execute a president and they didn't get it quite right did they or we wouldn't be talking about it still this day.

Ultimately: I believe the government is acting in the interest of the American people, it's not perfect, but they're on our side.
 
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  #209 (permalink)  
Old 05-18-2011, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zap View Post
It is not Jake and I that are missing somethng here. It's you.
It's possible that there are 5 people aboard a ship that directly saw a body which looks like Bin Laden's and the other 4995 people saw an unidentifiable body because it was wrapped by the time they saw it.
You keep talking about things relating to proof; I'm speaking of disproof.

Specifically what was observed by whom is not the issue. The issue is the number who would have to claim that nothing happened.

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  #210 (permalink)  
Old 05-18-2011, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepsand View Post
You keep talking about things relating to proof; I'm speaking of disproof.

Specifically what was observed by whom is not the issue. The issue is the number who would have to claim that nothing happened.

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When Obama addresses the nation and says that they've killed Bin Laden, I'm not looking for disproof of the opposite. I'm looking for proof of his statements.
And it doesn't take a whole army of people to lie to perpetrate the hoax.
All that's required is a group of people who think they saw something and testify to that.
How difficult do you think it is to fool the average human being?
 
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  #211 (permalink)  
Old 05-18-2011, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zap View Post
When Obama addresses the nation and says that they've killed Bin Laden, I'm not looking for disproof of the opposite. I'm looking for proof of his statements.
And it doesn't take a whole army of people to lie to perpetrate the hoax.
All that's required is a group of people who think they saw something and testify to that.
Proof and disproof are the two sides of the same coin.

A few can disprove the many.

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  #212 (permalink)  
Old 05-18-2011, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by NastyBlast View Post
Ultimately: I believe the government is acting in the interest of the American people, it's not perfect, but they're on our side.
On the whole I think little of over-arching conspiracy theories.
What I do believe is that events can and do occur which are a result of
a temporary collusion of interests.
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  #213 (permalink)  
Old 05-18-2011, 08:30 PM
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What I do believe is that events can and do occur which are a result of a temporary collusion of interests.
of that I have no doubt. They know that the public is easily distracted by the next issue and that they can get away with basically anything. So it turns up 30 years later "so what" they will say to themselves as they do their deeds.

it's like in the movie Gladiator.. She says to the Emperor "the mob is fickle brother... He will be forgotten in a month"
 
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  #214 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2011, 08:35 PM
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Has Obama proven bin laden got shot that night?
No.

Is it probable that he thinks his word should be sufficient?
Given past history, yes. A couple of years surrounded by yes men will do that.

From watching the circus surrounding this action the impression I get is that the action did take place (that much we at least have verification for), and in a knee-jerk PC movement Obama tried to placate the Muslim world by giving a burial inside the time parameters the religion requires and is hoping to avoid repercussions by not displaying pics he thinks will be used as incentive to act against us (as if before the al Qaida crew really had nothing against us).

Being PC when it makes zero sense is consistent with Obama's past actions, and thinking his word should be sufficient without hard proof isn't a new thing for him either. That he has handled it poorly in respect to providing proof is evident, but I don't think the military left a helicopter with a top secret tail rotor config behind as a part of a ruse.

Though I understand those wanting satisfaction... pics of the battered body of the twerp that initiated so many deaths on 9/11 (which started changes still being felt all over the globe)... releasing the pics/videos would not have ended speculation. Hell, people claim the holocaust never occurred and it's documented out the wazoo. I still see reason to believe the mission that killed him probably did exactly that. Pakistan AND al Qaida appear to believe he was killed too. The reveal was handled poorly, but the signals point to the guy having really been killed.

Unfortunately, not the first major terror figure caught hiding in Pakistan
And he was within gunshot range of their national military academy in an ostentatious compound. Perhaps their government will finally have to stick a dime in the phone or get out of the booth. They've been given billions by the west to pursue terrorists, yet they seldom seem to know they're there, even when we do.

The west will now have a chance to pressure the Paki government to either...
  • --a- get serious and quit hiding terrorists OR
  • --b-be rapidly weaned from the multiple-billion dollar/pound tit they've been milking
Based on demonstrations, a large number of their citizens clearly are in sympathy (if not collusion) with al Qaida, now it's time for the Paki officials to prove that doesn't describe them as well.

Simply put, if they can't find the terrorists under their nose...
There's no reason for western nations to continue paying 'em to NOT find them. They're either liars or incompetent. No third option.
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Last edited by robjones; 05-22-2011 at 09:13 PM.
 
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  #215 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2011, 11:49 PM
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Western doners fail to understand that aid is not doing any good for Pakistan. Bad governance, incompetent and corrupt leadership is the main problem of Pakistan. I used to think why people here sympathize with terrorists even after we have lost 35,000 lives in suicide blasts in the last few years and most of them innocent muslims.
Now I understand because people know government is incompetent, corrupt and evil and it says we are fighting war on terror so all the west is paying us $$$$ to support us. So people know its all going in the pockets of corrupt ruling elite hence they sympathize with alqaida which they think must be better than this government.
I think that army and government are playing double game. They don't want this war to end because it will keep the money coming.

The Ex Chief of Army staff Pervaiz Musharraf has huge properties in Pakistan and is living in UK for the last few years. Not only him but all high rank army officers get properties and all of them get very rich before they get retired. These army officers eat up the whole budget of the country and ordinary pakistanis are left to die in suicide blasts with minimum health care and education etc.
 
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