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  #21  
Old 10-27-2011, 02:25 PM
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Personally I applaud the way Europeans and Canadiens protest. If the government is doing something to wrong the people, they don't just hold signs, they possibly resort to some levels of rioting. I'm not saying I want anarchy, but some controlled violence is sometimes called for. In fact, it's how we became a country in the first place. They dumped the tea into the harbor amongst other things. When Europeans protest, things get done. The government does what your supposed to do represent their people and also 'fear their people.' When governments get above this, then nothing changes and now the governments are above the law. We been relegated down to passivist pansies that can't do more than hold up some signs in "designated" areas that are far away from where most traffic is. The first amendment is now a joke. Like in the video of the protesters in New York that were just sitting on the sidewalk doing nothing and got pepper sprayed because the cops thought they should move because people might see them and then used some excuse that they were causing civil disorder and were "breaking laws." Give me a break. If a few things get broken, then maybe people and the government will wake up and begin to fear the people when they are corrupt and greedy. Til then, we get what we've been getting.
 
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  #22  
Old 10-27-2011, 03:42 PM
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Jake,

You can claim the rules are whatever you want.
Good luck with that.

Many citizens have decided things can not, may not and will not
go on as they are.

While the Occupy movement is committed to peaceful action and
to non-violent resistance, I have not seen where the occupy movement
has committed itself to commit suicide by abiding with innumerable laws, rules and regulations
specifically designed to undermine the right of a free people to defend themselves from
and end this injustice of disrespect for humanity.

Last edited by rabble; 10-27-2011 at 04:03 PM.
 
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  #23  
Old 10-27-2011, 07:10 PM
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eSome may wonder what I mean by 'the injustice of disrespect for humanity'.
I realize it seems a little vague, so I refer you to the alligations leveled in the
Declaration of the Occupation of New York City
I would also ask you to compare how close in form it is to the
Declaration of Independence.

While not nearly as eloquent or signed by such an illustrious group of characters
as the original 18th Century Declaration. I will say in New York Declaration's defense, it is only a draft.
Only time and effort will reveal its evolving value.

The most damning of accusations is that corporations have colluded to corrupt
government jn favor pf corporations to the detriment of individuals.
Please tell me what is more important ... a substance that might be fecal
matter under a bush or the right of people to have their grievances redressed?

Last edited by rabble; 10-27-2011 at 07:14 PM.
 
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  #24  
Old 10-27-2011, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cricket View Post
How many homeless people do you think
the Republican and/or Democratic National Committees fed today?
 
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  #25  
Old 10-27-2011, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cricket View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia
Since 1993, The New York Post has been owned by media mogul Rupert Murdoch's News Corporation
In other words ... it is not a reputable source of information.
The only information I can confirm is correct in the article is the fact the kitchen will be serving reduced meals the next three
days. The reason is to give the kitchen time to reflect, reorganize and upgrade to better serve everyone at Zucotti Park.
(see: A friendly announcement from the Food Working Group)
The article is, IMO, hog wash and a typical of News Corp hatchet job .

Last edited by rabble; 10-27-2011 at 09:30 PM.
 
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  #26  
Old 10-27-2011, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabble View Post
Jake,

You can claim the rules are whatever you want.
Good luck with that.
With all due respect that is not a claim. It is in fact, the law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabble View Post
Many citizens have decided things can not, may not and will not
go on as they are.
Agreed. Most of those that have made the decision are not a part of OWS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabble View Post
While the Occupy movement is committed to peaceful action and to non-violent resistance, I have not seen where the occupy movement has committed itself to commit suicide by abiding with innumerable laws, rules and regulations specifically designed to undermine the right of a free people to defend themselves from and end this injustice of disrespect for humanity.
Makes for great PR and reasons to think you are above the law and entitled... just isn't accurate. Have you ever applied for a permit? Not difficult at all. I assume what they find bothersome is that anyone expects them to be responsible for their own stuff...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabble
The most damning of accusations is that corporations have colluded to corrupt government jn favor pf corporations to the detriment of individuals.
Again, I ask you how?
 
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  #27  
Old 10-27-2011, 11:35 PM
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In my own view, I think it's one of the side effects of Democracy. Where people are the ones who control their country thus when more active citizens joined together to suppress changes in the government, they use their own rights and freedom in any way effective whilst affecting those naive ones watching in front of their private televisions.
 
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  #28  
Old 10-28-2011, 12:11 AM
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Oh well Jake.
I'm pretty sure the die is cast.
The Occupy movement has reached consensus
and I'm pretty tired of mucking around in the swamp with you.
 
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  #29  
Old 10-28-2011, 03:03 AM
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Based on Rabbles comment about most corporations colluding with the government to the detriment of individuals..
Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeMoore View Post
Again, I ask you how?
1. Drug companies gaining seats within public office (classic example Donald Rumsfeld) and then using scare tactics to convince the nation that the bird flu virus was a serious threat, in turn, millions of vaccines sold, the pharma company he is on the board of gets the job... Hey presto, everyones a winner Well, everyone, except the American tax payer

2. Monsanto managing to make sure that certain food packaging does not show that products contain GM crop, thus the American public finding it difficult to decipher what is what.. But hey, everyone is a winner Except the American public, as the decision for them to decide what is good or not is harder for them to make, as the boundaries have been blurred

3. Banks playing a major part in the economy crash, but hey, they suffered along with the rest of us, so I guess that will teach them as at least we're all in the same boat and even they are feeling the pinch, right?.. That'll teach those greedy fat-cats .......

Quote:
"Commercial banks and savings institutions insured by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) reported an aggregate profit of $29 billion in the first quarter of 2011, an $11.6 billion improvement (66.5 percent) from the $17.4 billion in net income the industry reported in the first quarter of 2010. This is the seventh consecutive quarter that earnings registered a year-over-year increase. For the sixth consecutive quarter, reduced provisions for loan losses drove the improvement in earnings. Net income was the best for the industry since the $36.8 billion earned in the second quarter of 2007 (see chart above).
Think again Report by FDIC

Ok, one may say that the fat-cats aren't colluding with the government and are not influencing them, but I would say "Ya don't think so?.. Then how are they managing to make so much profit on everyone elses suffering and foreclosures etc?"

Ok, maybe not everyone agree to how these people (the real protestors, not the ones just there for trouble) are protesting, but one thing we probably all agree on is their reasoning behind it. Nobody can knock them for that.
 
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  #30  
Old 10-28-2011, 04:41 AM
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Anyway ... back to the issue of 'Is the Occupy movement above the law?'
The answer would clearly be no if all laws were just. Yet, this is not the case,
nor has it ever been, that all laws are just. I submit practically no one has
to think very long, very hard, or even very deeply to find a law they consider unjust
and which they proceed to ignore even though there may be a civil and/or criminal sanction as a result.

Human history is replete with example of laws which individuals or groups of individuals
have determined by reason to be either unjust or enabling of injustice and they have proceeded,
with moral clarity and determined certainty, to disobey them.

Putting that aside for a moment, I think there was a clear intent here to discredit
the Occupy movement by insinuating that the Occupation of Zucotti Park near Wall Street
is illegal and in violation of law. That is simply not true. Zucotti Park was occupied
with the consent of its maintainers as an alternative when the original
target for occupation was denied them.

There are now 1,772 spaces around the world which are either occupied or in the
process of being occupied. Each has it's own birth pangs and modes and methods of
maturation. I cannot tell you what each of them have done or are doing.
If they are legal or not is determined by the laws and ordinances in each location
and any attempt to paint them all with the same brush is simply an attempt to discredit.

Anyway. To answer the question again, because it seems I may have been mistakenly
interpreted as having said, "Yes. They are above the law"

OccupyWallSt and other occupied spaces in solidarity with it are not above the law
Some or many may be in opposition to some instances and invocations
of law and I respect all instances of principled, peaceful and non-violent acts of civil
disobedience, especially if they are intended to further justice for all.

I honor their sacrifice when they are led away in hand-cuffs and imprisoned.
When I see them beaten and abused, thrown to the ground, kicked, stepped on,
tear gassed, pepper sprayed, shot with rubber bullets and bean bags, concussion bombed ... I am inspired to join them.

No. The occupiers are not above the law, they are in awe inspiring submission to it.
Those who would try and put them beneath the law or outside of the law prove the injustice they protest is true.

Last edited by rabble; 10-28-2011 at 04:55 AM.
 
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  #31  
Old 10-28-2011, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Occupy Wall Street Launching First Nationwide General Strike In America Since 1946

Strike approved for next Wednesday, November 2.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/...ince-1946.html

Is this real? Have not heard much about the above - would be interesting, maybe ???

Quote:
One of the founders of the Tea Party – conservative Karl Denninger – supports the strike (and see this).
Is there a multiplicity to the Tea Party ???

Again, the Republican Tea Party was a political manifestation of Fox News and Republican Political Contributors / Sympathizers specific to the Republican Party.

Will an independent original Tea Party reemerge and join with the OWS ? and with what political leanings for the two groups joined together ???
 
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  #32  
Old 10-28-2011, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G10 View Post
Ok, maybe not everyone agree to how these people (the real protestors, not the ones just there for trouble) are protesting, but one thing we probably all agree on is their reasoning behind it. Nobody can knock them for that.
I think plenty of people do not agree with their reasoning behind it.

I think plenty of people do not agree with plenty of the points in the Declarations rabble has posted a couple of times. I know I do.
 
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  #33  
Old 10-29-2011, 06:16 AM
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There were people at the time who didn't
agree with the Declaration of Independence.
 
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  #34  
Old 10-29-2011, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabble View Post
There were people at the time who didn't
agree with the Declaration of Independence.
Tea Party Republicans ???
 
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  #35  
Old 10-29-2011, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabble View Post
There were people at the time who didn't
agree with the Declaration of Independence.
Ok...but that does not address G10's claim that everyone agrees with the reasoning behind OWS.
 
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  #36  
Old 10-29-2011, 06:42 AM
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Oakland Occupiers admit that they threw bottles, etc at police before the police responded.

[YT]eHlHiNEZ1wA[/YT]

For occupiers to think they are singled out because of their type of action or their message is just ridiculous. I'm in St. Louis. We won the World Series last night. The crowds were huge. The police were very active in controlling people and their movements. They had a large presence...blocked off certain areas...rode into and disbursed crowds that were too large or too rowdy. And guess what...no one threw bottles at the police. Crowd control is entirely appropriate use of police authority...especially angry crowd control.
 
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  #37  
Old 10-29-2011, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeMoore View Post
Ok...but that does not address G10's claim that everyone agrees with the reasoning behind OWS.
I wasn't aware of the claim everyone agrees.
According to the rules of General Assembly only 90/100
is required for adoption. It is possible to disagree in part
(as I do) and still find the overall Declaration acceptable.
 
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  #38  
Old 10-29-2011, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeMoore View Post
Oakland Occupiers admit that they threw bottles, etc at police before the police responded.
I also saw that report. Pretty sure I saw it on
Countdown with Keith Olbermann who seems pretty happy
with his new digs on Current TV.

Although she hesitated, give the girl credit for honesty.
The campaign to take back the Plaza was poorly organized
and I, as you should know, do not endorse violence.
I can only point out the General Asembly which took place at the library
before the protesters marched to the plaza agreed it would be a non-violent action.

While objects in the rear view mirror may be closer
than they seem: the actions to retake the plaza were successful.
 
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  #39  
Old 10-29-2011, 08:38 AM
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Just my opinion. The peaceful demonstration ended when the bottles started flying.

I support the rights to one and ending the other by any means necessary.
 
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  #40  
Old 10-29-2011, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScriptMan View Post
Just my opinion. The peaceful demonstration ended when the bottles started flying.

I support the rights to one and ending the other by any means necessary.
'By any means necessary'?
Would snipers on the roof be ok?
How about holding the parents of the protesters hostage?

In this case the means which actually worked was
that Mayor Quan ordering the riot police off the street
and apologized. Do you agree with that means?
 
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