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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 10-29-2011, 09:26 AM
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When the bottles start flying the protest is over and a potential riot just started. Riots are not something a civilized society should tolerate. We either are or not a nation of laws.

If true, not doubting you, the mayor should be complimented for having a cooler head than those at the street level.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2011, 02:34 PM
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http://news.yahoo.com/occupy-veteran...072300415.html

Occupy Veterans Movement Growing Across U.S


Since Occupy Wall Street protests have broken out in cities across the U.S. and abroad, support has come from what might seem like an unlikely corner: war veterans.

"For veterans especially, health care is paramount, yet is always on the table to be cut," Jenkins said in an interview with ABC News. "Vets in this movement don't want to fight anymore. We want to make peace and live peaceably. We shouldn't have to fight for our benefits, and if vets are fighting for their benefits then it can't be any better for nonvets.
...........

"These riot squads deploy unlawful excessive force against Americans all service members swore to protect, and many veterans have sacrificed their lives in that honor. We at OMC will not stand idly by as these cowards continue to abuse the Constitution, hurting American citizens. We will use any nonviolent means to convince law enforcement agencies to understand that brutality will only strengthen our resolve," the spokesperson said, adding that the group acknowledged that not all Marines agreed with the group's position.

"As for Scott Olsen, we are outraged his life was nearly snuffed out by these cowards, and pray for his continued recovery and that of his family during this difficult time."

Olsen, who deployed twice to Iraq, is a member of the Veterans for Peace and Iraq Veterans Against the War. The Veterans for Peace issued a statement shortly after Olsen suffered his injuries.

"VFP members are involved with dozens of these local 'occupy movement' encampments, and we support them fully," it said.

A little quiet on the Occupy Front ...

Not sure why veteran participation might "seem" an unlikely group to participate OWS, considering the broad spectrum and diversity of participation to date.

Their presence actually "seems" quite logical. Unless they are the type to put Turtles on Posts and then blame the Ranchers for their own acts of animal endangerment - perhaps those more logical for the (R) Tea Party.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 11-01-2011, 06:14 AM
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It won't be long before the police realize that there won't be any pension at the end of their 30 years of service to the police force and, in that moment, they will begin joining the protesters.

It's all fun and games until you realize that you're just as screwed as everyone else.
 
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 11-01-2011, 07:57 AM
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You have 1 group of people who are peacefully assembling and another group of people with weapons trying to control the latter. It's not about law and order, it's about power and control.
 
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 11-01-2011, 08:37 PM
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 11-01-2011, 09:00 PM
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Isn't it greed to want money you did not earn from others who have it?
 
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 11-01-2011, 11:18 PM
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We can debate who earned what another time.
For now, I submit it isn't greed to attempt to recover what has been stolen.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 11-01-2011, 11:57 PM
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You're right, but justice is always in the middle!
 
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 11-02-2011, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by rabble View Post
We can debate who earned what another time.
For now, I submit it isn't greed to attempt to recover what has been stolen.
Please reread my comment. I specifically did not say the 1% earned it to avoid that being an issue. But it is clear the 99% did not earn it.

So to summarize your position:

1. The way to combat greed is to be greedy.
2. The way to combat theft is to steal.
3. The way to combat excessive control of government is to yourself get excessive control of government.

You can call what the 1% did to you theft all you want, but it was not and is not. It was not illegal...perhaps it should have been...but it was not theft. And if it was illegal, find the ones that acted that way, put them in jail and seize and sell their assets off to pay their victims. It happens everyday.
 
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 11-02-2011, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeMoore View Post
You can call what the 1% did to you theft all you want, but it was not and is not. It was not illegal...perhaps it should have been...but it was not theft. And if it was illegal, find the ones that acted that way, put them in jail and seize and sell their assets off to pay their victims. It happens everyday.
The system of laws enabled the theft and it is theft, regardless of whether or not it's legal.
Of course it's currently legal! The ones doing the stealing are the same ones making the laws!

It would be great if the ones that acted that way were punished and forced to make restitution, but they're not. Again, because they make the laws.

And you're totally missing the point on control of government.
Should "The People" take control of government?
The obvious answer to that is... THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE TO.
Control over government should have been theirs all along.
You know... Of the people, for the people, by the people.
 
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 11-02-2011, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeMoore View Post
Please reread my comment. I specifically did not say the 1% earned it to avoid that being an issue. But it is clear the 99% did not earn it.

So to summarize your position:

I'm just curious how you and robjones anointed yourselves the providence of Rhode Island ??? - do you ever just speak for yourselves?
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 11-02-2011, 10:19 AM
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http://www.coloringbook.com/occupycoloringbook.aspx

A coloring book for remembrances ... a must for collectors.
Attached Thumbnails
Protesters Above The Law?-occupation_covers1.jpg  
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 11-02-2011, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zap View Post
The system of laws enabled the theft and it is theft, regardless of whether or not it's legal.
Of course it's currently legal! The ones doing the stealing are the same ones making the laws!
So to further clarify the position of OWS -- the 1%, which isn't really the 1% at all but is some unidentified very small number of individuals who engaged in some unidentifiable acts of "greed", actually did nothing illegal but "they" should be made to pay for screwing the huge throngs of people which had no choice but to buy things with money they did not have to live a lifestyle of excess which they could not afford.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zap View Post
It would be great if the ones that acted that way were punished and forced to make restitution, but they're not. Again, because they make the laws.
Actually that has nothing to do with it. There are real crimes that were committed by rich and poor alike that got us in our financial mess. The real problem is that the crime and greed was/is so endemic that it would be impossible to prosecute all of the participants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zap View Post
And you're totally missing the point on control of government.
Should "The People" take control of government?
The obvious answer to that is... THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE TO.
Control over government should have been theirs all along.
You know... Of the people, for the people, by the people.
No, you are totally missing the point. The people already have control. That the people refuse to exercise it is their own fault. The power of the ballot box is ultimate control. Certainly if the 99% actually believed in or supported any particular thing it would be done.
 
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 11-02-2011, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeMoore View Post
So to further clarify the position of OWS -- the 1%, which isn't really the 1% at all but is some unidentified very small number of individuals who engaged in some unidentifiable acts of "greed", actually did nothing illegal but "they" should be made to pay for screwing the huge throngs of people which had no choice but to buy things with money they did not have to live a lifestyle of excess which they could not afford.
That's YOUR position, Jake, as stated by you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeMoore View Post
Actually that has nothing to do with it. There are real crimes that were committed by rich and poor alike that got us in our financial mess. The real problem is that the crime and greed was/is so endemic that it would be impossible to prosecute all of the participants.
The poor don't have a bulletproof umbrella to stand under when things go wrong. They lose their house when they get too much mortgage. The system seems to be dealing with their misdeeds just fine.
Now... What about those bankers? How did the system deal with their misdeeds? Mega bonuses at the taxpayer's expense. Not equitable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeMoore View Post
No, you are totally missing the point. The people already have control. That the people refuse to exercise it is their own fault. The power of the ballot box is ultimate control. Certainly if the 99% actually believed in or supported any particular thing it would be done.
The people have control? Can I have some of what you've been smoking?
Plenty of folks come out to vote in every election but have zero control over politicians.
The faces change, but everything else stays the same and we all know it.
 
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 11-02-2011, 02:37 PM
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Jake you make me laugh when you say that: "The power of the ballot box is ultimate control".

That's what they want you to believe, they are already chosen by political think tanks before you can use your ultimate ballot box.

IMO the best presidential candidate is Ron Paul, a true American speaking the truth.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 11-02-2011, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post
Jake you make me laugh when you say that: "The power of the ballot box is ultimate control".

That's what they want you to believe, they are already chosen by political think tanks before you can use your ultimate ballot box.

IMO the best presidential candidate is Ron Paul, a true American speaking the truth.
And if the power of the ballot box chose Ron Paul?
 
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old 11-02-2011, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Zap View Post
That's YOUR position, Jake, as stated by you.
Actually it's YOUR position. You have admitted it's not the 1%, but something much smaller. Though I have asked many times what the specific acts of greed are you have only pointed to general and broad liberal principles which in no way apply to all of the 1% -- even when you narrow it to just bankers as you did previously. You said they did nothing illegal...because they make the laws. I will take credit for adding "the throngs which had no choice but to buy things with money they did not have to live a lifestyle of excess which they could not afford" But please tell me how you dispute that.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Zap View Post
The poor don't have a bulletproof umbrella to stand under when things go wrong. They lose their house when they get too much mortgage. The system seems to be dealing with their misdeeds just fine.
Now... What about those bankers? How did the system deal with their misdeeds? Mega bonuses at the taxpayer's expense. Not equitable.
We've been around this block. You don't seem to understand the system or what was actually going on. People were committing real fraud everyday. It is bank fraud and perhaps wire fraud or mail fraud to submit false information on your HUD-1 loan application. There were millions of fraudulent applications signed under penalty of perjury and used to obtain loans. Are you saying it is sufficient punishment for their actual crime that they lose their homes? Again, my point is not to say they should all be charged even if it was practical. My point is to say it was the bankers who were greedy, but not them alone by any long shot. It was endemic...as was fraud. Appraisers fraudulently bloated appraisals over and over, title companies kited funds, mortgage brokers told people how to submit applications that would meet underwriting guidelines -- for example a totally routine "asset" for someone buying a $75k house was $50k of furnishings -- because you need a certain amount of assets on your application. Not one of those people had $50k of personal property. Realtors did not have clean hands either.

The simple fact is that what the bankers did is they made money readily available...they lent money too easily to too many people. They took crack to a crack house to sell it. Simple economics tells you that more buyers inflates prices. What the bankers did on the back end ...which is where they actually committed fraud, had nothing to do with the borrowers and everything to do with their investors. Yes... it is the greedy rich investors who are the people who were actually defrauded. Homeowners were actually benefited by the crazy back-end transactions because it makes it gives them so many options to stop their foreclosures if they will educate themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zap View Post
The people have control? Can I have some of what you've been smoking?
Plenty of folks come out to vote in every election but have zero control over politicians.
The faces change, but everything else stays the same and we all know it.
Term limits.
 
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 11-03-2011, 01:54 AM
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I do not think that protesters can be above the law.
 
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Old 11-03-2011, 02:26 AM
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I think that they are not above the law but they can surely stand what they claim is true.
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old 11-03-2011, 04:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeMoore View Post
Actually it's YOUR position. You have admitted it's not the 1%, but something much smaller. Though I have asked many times what the specific acts of greed are you have only pointed to general and broad liberal principles which in no way apply to all of the 1% -- even when you narrow it to just bankers as you did previously. You said they did nothing illegal...because they make the laws. I will take credit for adding "the throngs which had no choice but to buy things with money they did not have to live a lifestyle of excess which they could not afford" But please tell me how you dispute that.
Don't ascribe your words to me. You said it. You claim it and take responsibility for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeMoore View Post
We've been around this block. You don't seem to understand the system or what was actually going on. People were committing real fraud everyday. It is bank fraud and perhaps wire fraud or mail fraud to submit false information on your HUD-1 loan application. There were millions of fraudulent applications signed under penalty of perjury and used to obtain loans. Are you saying it is sufficient punishment for their actual crime that they lose their homes? Again, my point is not to say they should all be charged even if it was practical. My point is to say it was the bankers who were greedy, but not them alone by any long shot. It was endemic...as was fraud. Appraisers fraudulently bloated appraisals over and over, title companies kited funds, mortgage brokers told people how to submit applications that would meet underwriting guidelines -- for example a totally routine "asset" for someone buying a $75k house was $50k of furnishings -- because you need a certain amount of assets on your application. Not one of those people had $50k of personal property. Realtors did not have clean hands either.
I understand the system. And you make some very valid points, there.
But that fact remains that the homeowners lost their homes when things went bad. Again, the system dealt with them in some fashion. The rest have received nothing in the form of punishment, nor have made restitution of any sort.
To your point, perhaps loss of the home is not enough to punish the greedy borrowers. If you feel they should do some jail time or maybe even be executed, that is your right to feel that way. But at least the system has dealt with them in some recognizable way. The same can not be said for their greedy counterparts in those deals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeMoore View Post
Term limits.
Term limits? With a statement like that, I have to question whether or not you understand the political process in your own country, Jake.
Term limits will do absolutely nothing to stem the corruption in government.
Corporations buy politicians and they really care not who's name goes on the cheques.
Even if you limit every politician to a single term, the corporations will have to write a different name on that cheque every 4 years. Big deal!
It won't even slow them down.
 
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