Is the Occupy Movement Winning by Losing?

[JakeMoore]

Originally Posted by rabble

I get your perspective, Jake.
The rich get to make the rules and everyone else must obey them
That is the way all manner of social injustice is maintained around the world.

False. Society makes rules which society obeys. Tea Party follows them, the JV basketball team follows them, even the nazis follow them. Everyone follows the most basic rules of getting a permit and paying their way...I mean everyone but the occupiers. They can call it whatever they want, but they think and act like they and they alone do not need to follow the laws that were put in place so that all citizens have an equal opportunity. Every city has bent over backwards to accommodate them and their greed for control.

Originally Posted by rabble

One of the principals of the occupy movement
is the movement will not play the rigged game by rigged rules.
Complain all you want. It is a fact.

It is a fact that they choose not to play by the rules. It is also a fact that they want everyone else to play by the rules they hold themselves up above.

Originally Posted by rabble

Two things are now proven.

1. The elite are who the occupiers say they are and the elite have revealed their violent nature for all to see.
2. The occupiers are who they say they are and have revealed they are
in fact non-violent.

Absolutely false. Occupiers don't even know who the 1% are. They change it every day and best suits them for that day's PR.

The occupiers are not in fact non-violent. Some are. Some are not. That's the problem with attaching yourself to a mob...when there is violence and lawlessness by some it affects the others.

It's like I tell my kiddos every day. You are judged by the people you associate with.

[Breeze Wood]

Not to stir a kettle but a little something from NPR - (that makes it ok, npr).

Hopefully someone learned their lesson on the Pepper Spraying ...

It seems to me, OWS has lost its direction by focusing on the encampments and not their message.

The soon to be "Revitalized Economy" should be made an opportunity for OWS - and the impact of the economic Recovery on the Tea Party will be an interesting contrast between the two movements particularly if it is embraced by OWS.

[Zap]

Originally Posted by rabble

To get back to the main point of this thread though
I asked if the wave of evictions from occupied spaces
across this country (and now Canada) could in some way
be viewed as a win.

I am currently discouraged but hopeful.
The message has broken through and become a meme.
The movement, though scattered, is likely easily and spontaneously reconstituted at will.

Mic check.

No worries, Rabble.
I suspect that the Tea Party and OWS are not the "end results" of anything, but more like indicators. They are just 2 cracks in a broken system that most already know is rigged.
Even folks like Jake, who seem to despise the OWS movement, can not deny that the systems of government in many nations around the globe are corrupt and getting worse.
There are several millions who will never protest, but would agree to that statement and would probably like to see things change for the better, if they could just believe that it can happen.

People are waking up and when the Tea Party and OWS have long since departed, there will be other displays of protest and I believe the voices will continue to get louder with each new movement.

"Those who would make peaceful protest impossible, make violent revolution inevitable."
I believe the time will come when those who voice their discontent with the current system will not go away. There will be too many of US to ignore and the smarter portion of THEM will see the writing on the wall.

[Breeze Wood]

JakeMoore: the laws that were put in place so that all citizens have an equal opportunity.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...n_1125939.html

Scott Walker Administration Unveils Policy To Have Protesters Pay Police, Cleanup Costs

The administration of Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker (R) unveiled a policy Thursday to hold protesters in the state Capitol liable for extra police or cleanup, in the aftermath of massive demonstrations earlier this year against anti-union legislation.

Under the policy, groups of four or more inside state buildings and 100 or more people outside the Capitol must obtain permits at least 72 hours in advance of protests. Groups could be charged $50 per hour per Capitol Police officer, while costs for other law enforcement agencies will vary. The police could also require advance payment and liability insurance or a bond. Cleanup could be charged to organizers.

The policy also makes it clear that spending the night in the Capitol, taping signs to Capitol walls not intended for signs, allowing the sale of food or other items in the Capitol and using sound equipment that would interfere with the building are all not allowed.

The policy is effective immediately. The administration says no one will be denied a permit based on the content of their event.

Edward Fallone, an associate professor at Marquette University Law School, told the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel that the policy could be problematic since some groups might not be able to afford the costs. "I'm a little skeptical about charging people to express their First Amendment opinion," he said. "You can't really put a price tag on the First Amendment."

The Wisconsin Department of Administration estimated cleanup and overtime costs for the protests earlier this year were about $8 million, including $270,000 for Capitol building repairs. About $3.9 million of the $8 million was for local law enforcement costs.

The administration of Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker (R) unveiled a policy Thursday to hold protesters in the state Capitol liable for extra police or cleanup, in the aftermath of massive demonstrations earlier this year against anti-union legislation.

This is a little confusing ??? The protests were not the OWS but Wis. citizens in protest against legislation by an Administration affecting their daily lives. They are being told to pay for the civil functions of gov't they already have paid for through their Taxes.


Coincidental perhaps why the OWS chose not to have a Leadership in regards to politicized economic retaliation some Politicians use as a defense for their policies rather than an appropriate response to public discourse.

[Zap]

Typical.
They have no trouble finding trillions of dollars for bailouts but they can't seem to scrape together a few million for cleanup costs.

[Sunfyre7896]

Personally, I don't think much 'peaceful' protest ever works for much of anything other than getting a message out. To really get things done, there are other options. Vote people out. Takes years and you never really know if the next guy coming in is really going to do the things they say they're gonna do. Violent protests, as used in other areas of the democratic world such as Europe and Canada. This isn't to be confused with full scale riots, just things like blocking roads, going on strike, etc to not only get attention, but put an end to bad policies. It seems to work over there for various things I've noticed.

[rabble]

+ YouTube Video

[boblord666]

Originally Posted by rabble

Hilarious. I don't have any problem whatsoever with people who are choosing to protest but she was wearing a tied on tent with intent. Melbourne police handled the situation well, no violence except from police wielding scissors cutting tent ties.

No injuries, no violence.

[rabble]

Originally Posted by boblord666

Hilarious. No injuries, no violence.

I agree. I posted it for its humor value.
I am pleased the protesters have chosen to remain non-violent
and to seek new ways to protest when old ways are denied them.

I am equally pleased when the police remain non-violent.
Here in the states that has too frequently not been the case.

[Cricket]

I don't know what to think anymore. I am trying so hard to see both sides of the story, but I keep finding myself getting angry with the protesters because of the manner that many of them use to get their voices heard.

How many millions have the protesters cost us now?
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/occup...0#.Tuj7iGPNlGV

I don't often go to downtown San Antonio because I am not a huge fan of crowds, but the night the Christmas lights were to be turned on, I decided I wanted to be there.



When I first saw the occupiers, there were just a few. They were protesting in a respectful manner and were smiling and interacting with the public.

It was peaceful. Of course it was early, so they didn't have much of an audience yet either.

As night began to fall, there were more of them. With the audience growing their demeanor took on a whole new look. I witnessed them yelling and getting into the face of a mother with her young child simply because she was carrying a Disney shopping bag. I saw them cuss a man in uniform so loudly that everyone stopped to look. This is not freedom of speech, this is harassment of the very people they claim to represent.

In that moment I could no longer "hear" their message, nor did I want to.

Just my 2 cents....

[Cricket]

If we truly want to make a difference, perhaps more of us should consider this...
http://blog.v7n.com/2011/12/13/just-imagine/ (watch the video)

[boblord666]

Originally Posted by Cricket

If we truly want to make a difference, perhaps more of us should consider this...
http://blog.v7n.com/2011/12/13/just-imagine/ (watch the video)

Thanks - A good reminder to me to get started on another bunch of KIVA loans.

[rabble]

Originally Posted by Cricket

As night began to fall, there were more of them. With the audience growing their demeanor took on a whole new look. I witnessed them yelling and getting into the face of a mother with her young child simply because she was carrying a Disney shopping bag. I saw them cuss a man in uniform so loudly that everyone stopped to look. This is not freedom of speech, this is harassment of the very people they claim to represent.

In that moment I could no longer "hear" their message, nor did I want to.

Just my 2 cents....

I certainly can't defend the action of every person who claims to act on behalf of the occupy movement. Nor do I intend to. Perhaps you should direct your complaints to OccupySanAntonio.

I also agree people shouldn't have been harrassed as you describe.
I favor all good deeds we do one to another.

It has always been expensive to enforce laws the people don't agree with.
Look at prohibition. Both the earlier alchohol and current drug prohibitions
for example.

When as many as 100,000 or more people occupy public spaces in protest
perhaps you should address their concerns rather than spend so much money on dispersing them. Just sayin.

[rabble]

by 'you', I actually meant society.
Not you in particular, Cricket.

[rabble]

I have been taking some time away from this thread while I
internalize all has been said here.

This is an interesting update on the movement from someone else though.
NYPD Continues Its Rampage On Activists, Journalists - Even Fellow Officers

"There's a storm coming… You will wonder how you thought you could live so large and leave so little for the rest of us."

Selina Kyle aka Catwoman

[rabble]

Barricades Come Down at Zuccotti Park

[rabble]

+ YouTube Video

[gobiwinds]

The occupy movement has never won, they live here and by them living here, they are as much of the problem as anyone else.

[rabble]

Originally Posted by gobiwinds

The occupy movement has never won, they live here and by them living here, they are as much of the problem as anyone else.

I agree the occupy movement has certainly not won.
The question was actually this:

Is the occupy movement is winning by losing?

Maybe I would re-phase the question now as 'winning while losing'.

What the occupy movement was losing at the time I began this thread
was the battle on the ground over their 'occupied spaces'. As I have also
noted, it is problematic for a people committed to non-violence to maintain their 'occupied space' when confronted by the overwhelming violence
of state supported police action against them.

This past week U-S falls to 47th press freedom rankings after Occupy crackdown

[Breeze Wood]

http://my.earthlink.net/article/top?...2-136b898b39bd

More than 400 people were arrested on charges ranging from failure to disperse to vandalism, police spokesman Sgt. Jeff Thomason said. At least three officers and one protester were injured.

More than 400 people were arrested ..........


That is a lot of people - more than what might be expected for a descending movement.

What seems more relevant than the movement is the role of law-enforcement and their tactics used against the protesters ... again.

it seems the police keep the protesters movement front page more than the protesters.