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Old 11-16-2011, 07:06 PM
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Is the Occupy Movement Winning by Losing?

I guess nobody here would be suprised to find out I support the Occupy Movement. So ... it's with mixed emotions I report we've been getting our butts kicked. .

Nice way to end Act 1.
Very exhilarating!

Best thing ... none of that nasty violence stuff predicted by Faux news.
(discounting police who have mostly been following orders)

Act 2 begins tomorrow.
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Last edited by rabble; 11-16-2011 at 07:22 PM.
 
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Old 11-16-2011, 11:59 PM
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Getting' a lot of attention......and I do not believe all bad attention......
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Old 11-17-2011, 01:34 AM
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Tomorrow (today) should be interesting.
[YT]5C2eCEa-IF4[YT][/YT][/YT]
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Old 11-17-2011, 06:48 AM
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I really think that other ways should be employed to protest against Wall Street.

1) Stop using Credit cards and close it when you can
2) Don't use Cards when you can use cash
3) Don't leave all your money on you bank account
4) Stop borrowing more than you can afford
5) Move you account on a local bank if you are not happy in a big bank
6) Refuse all the bank products you don't need

7) This is my favorite, enjoy your life with your family with your money
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Old 11-17-2011, 07:43 AM
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This video is not new, but it is so on the topic.

[YT]5HlWivSeKIE#![/YT]
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Old 11-17-2011, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post
I really think that other ways should be employed to protest against Wall Street.
I and the movement certainly believe in and encourage a diversity of tactics.
Those things you have suggested are just plain good common sense and great on a personal finance level.
However, I do not see those suggestions as an effective action to further the over-arching goal of the occupy movement.
Occupy is a social movement dedicated to peaceful and effective community action.

The Occupation's goal is to wrestle political power and control of earth future
out of the hands of the 1% and return it to the people where it properly belongs.

This will require diverse, adaptive, creative and sustained purposeful action.
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Last edited by rabble; 11-17-2011 at 10:07 AM.
 
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Old 11-17-2011, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabble View Post
I and the movement certainly believe in and encourage a diversity of tactics.
Those things you have suggested are just plain good common sense and great on a personal finance level. I don't see those as effective action to
further the over-arching social goal of the the occupy movement which is to wrest political power and control of the future out of the hands of the 1% and
return it to the people where it properly belongs.
I understand your point of view Rabble, but often when spontaneous movements are created, they are quiclky distorted or in some cases highjacked by other political influences which is way different from the beginning. We saw that with the Tea Party, and we saw that now with the Occupy Movement.
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Old 11-17-2011, 10:21 AM
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Please ... seriously ...
explain what brings you to the conclusion the Occupation movement has been hijacked.
By whom?

I do want to hear your critical analysis.
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Old 11-17-2011, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim Gillum View Post
Getting' a lot of attention......and I do not believe all bad attention......
The movement is trying very hard to represent the 99%.
There is no other path to victory by peaceful means.
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Old 11-17-2011, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by rabble View Post
Please ... seriously ...
explain what brings you to the conclusion the Occupation movement has been hijacked.
By whom?

I do want to hear your critical analysis.
It's very simple, all of these movements are coming from grassroot movement, then highjacked by political parties or branches of political parties.

If you analyzed all of the spontaneous movements at the beginning, they are created by scandalized people from bad politics. These people are citizen and don't represent any political party.

When these movements are getting some steam then the political parties try to highjack these movements, and they are often successful at it.
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Old 11-17-2011, 10:43 AM
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Is the Occupy Movement Winning by Losing?
What is it that you feel they are winning?
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Old 11-17-2011, 12:03 PM
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Hearts and Minds.

This is what democracy looks like.

I don't mean to be flippant either.
I will give you a more thoughtful answer later.
Right now I'm monitoring the National Day of Action via
Twitter Live Video Stream cable news and etc.
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Last edited by rabble; 11-17-2011 at 12:11 PM.
 
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Old 11-17-2011, 01:19 PM
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Naah, they do NOT represent me.

By income I'm one of the 99%, but the various encampments seem to have a contest to see who can best desecrate the US flag. They've burned it, danced on it, scrawled anti-American slogans on it, used it as a doggie chew toy, etc.

If they honestly think they can win hearts and minds if they do this, approve of this, or stand idly by as it happens, they're just not bright enough to claim to represent me, and they certainly don't share my values.

And lest anyone suggest the news media is overplaying this, it's clear looking at the pictures and the videos that it is not really distressing anyone around them. Given that, they absolutely do not represent me. I've read their website, and far too many of them are whiners that want free stuff and idiots that hate the country.

I'll agree that the decades long consolidation of wealth toward the top has been aided by tax and economic policy. I'm all for addressing that, but camping out in a park to get publicity then screaming profanity at or attacking the news crews that show up to provide it is not an effective way to do it.

The occupy movement just has too large a component that should be occupying padded cells to suit my tastes, and the demands emerging from their crew are all over the board covering a multitude of pet issues unrelated to the shift of wealth and control toward Wall Street.
Attached Thumbnails
Is the Occupy Movement Winning by Losing?-occupy-denver-occucommies-dance-deface-american-flag-nov-5-2011.jpg   Is the Occupy Movement Winning by Losing?-occupy-denver-occucommies-dance-deface-american-flag-nov-5-2011-2.jpg   Is the Occupy Movement Winning by Losing?-ows-tree-flag.jpg   Is the Occupy Movement Winning by Losing?-austin-tx-protest-flag-desecration.jpg   Is the Occupy Movement Winning by Losing?-ows-flag-desecration.jpg  

Is the Occupy Movement Winning by Losing?-abz6sggcmaephj3.jpg   Is the Occupy Movement Winning by Losing?-ows-flag-descration2.jpg   Is the Occupy Movement Winning by Losing?-zuccotti-park-protest.jpg  

Last edited by robjones; 11-17-2011 at 01:28 PM.
 
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Old 11-17-2011, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by robjones View Post
The occupy movement just has too large a component that should be occupying padded cells to suit my tastes, and the demands emerging from their crew are all over the board covering a multitude of pet issues unrelated to the shift of wealth and control toward Wall Street.
That's an unfortunate byproduct of having a leaderless movement.
Anyone and everyone can be a spokesperson.
But the leaderlessness of it was by design and a necessary evil, for as soon as you have a leader, you have a target for TPTB to attack when the message is important and not the people delivering it.
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Old 11-17-2011, 05:08 PM
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Police Raid Occupy Wall Street Day of Action [VIDEO]

It's not looking good right now.

Quote:
Violence escalated this afternoon in Zuccotti Park after protesters called for a Global Day of Action at all Occupy protests Nov. 17, marking two months since the beginning of the movement.

Dozens have been arrested after protesters attempted to storm the New York Stock Exchange and nearby banks. Police have since closed off the park for entry and exit.
Continued at: http://mashable.com/2011/11/17/occup...et-day-action/
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Old 11-17-2011, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabble View Post
Best thing ... none of that nasty violence stuff predicted by Faux news.
(discounting police who have mostly been following orders)
It was just a threat, by the rhetoric is escalating:

Quote:
An Occupy Wall Street protester was arrested this evening for making inflammatory remarks and threats of violence after Occupy's eviction from Zuccotti Park on Tuesday.
http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2011/11...-arrested.html

Sexual assualts: http://abcnews.go.com/US/sexual-assa...4#.TsXR-0OsfBY

I've heard of at least 1 rape since the abc story.

Plus a whole host of disorderly conduct away from the actual protests and absolutely unsanitary conditions that if any kid lived in we would yank them out of their home for.

But you are correct that so far no full scale riots. Let's hope it stays that way.

None of these happened at tea parties, nor would have been tolerated by the protesters, nor would have been permitted by the authorities.

I am intrigued by why OWS gets all this special treatment. For example, in St. Louis where I best know both the tea party and OWS the difference in treatment is pretty dramatic. St. Louis has a democrat mayor, but he's fairly middle of the road and gets along well with most factions most of the time. It's definitely not Chicago. Anyway TP always got permits and had insurance. It was always required to provide for sanitation and other clean-up and rent port-a-potties. Last Nov when their insurance cancelled at the last moment the city refused to permit the rally. OWS on the other hand has been offered free permits (which they refused to accept because they want to protest without a permit). They have not been required to have any insurance. They have been given 30 days of accommodation...at least. They have picked up none of the tab for any waste. They have refused a free alternate protest site where they would not be interfering with people going about their day. The Salvation Army had to move its annual outdoor treelighting/fundraising holiday kick-off event to alternate locations because the protesters would not leave. Plenty of other things too. They should not get special privileges.
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Last edited by JakeMoore; 11-17-2011 at 07:54 PM.
 
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Old 11-17-2011, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post
I understand your point of view Rabble, but often when spontaneous movements are created, they are quiclky distorted or in some cases highjacked by other political influences which is way different from the beginning. We saw that with the Tea Party, and we saw that now with the Occupy Movement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post
It's very simple, all of these movements are coming from grassroot movement, then highjacked by political parties or branches of political parties.

If you analyzed all of the spontaneous movements at the beginning, they are created by scandalized people from bad politics. These people are citizen and don't represent any political party.

When these movements are getting some steam then the political parties try to highjack these movements, and they are often successful at it.
So you actual concern is that OWS may be highjacked?

Natural; I share your concern, as does the rest of the occupation movement. I find the possibility the movement can be highjacked unlikely. A primary complaint any people with power attempting to deal with the
Occupy movement is and has been the inability ( as Zap has pointed out ) to talk to a leader. We do not follow leaders. We come to consensus.

Quick guide on group dynamics in people’s assemblies
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Old 11-17-2011, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robjones View Post
By income I'm one of the 99%

I'll agree that the decades long consolidation of wealth toward the top has been aided by tax and economic policy. I'm all for addressing that
Good. We've reached consensus on that then.

Jake. I have read your criticism.

The majority of your issues appear to be local issues
you have with individuals other than me.
Many are broad social issues which existed long before
the birth of Occupy Wall Street 62 days ago.
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Old 11-17-2011, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabble View Post
The majority of your issues appear to be local issues.
I don't believe that to be true. It's just that I know the specific facts of the situation I addressed well.

What if the tea party did the same actions that OWS is doing? What if they blocked businesses and camped in the park and refused to get permits or insurance or crapped and peed in public? I assume you would afford them the same deference you give OWS, but would government and the media?
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Old 11-18-2011, 12:12 AM
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I'm not certain where your complaint about fairness comes from.
You have consistently in debate held inequality to be a perfectly
acceptable state of affairs. I have never determined if this is a view
born of scientific Darwinism where you simply believe some are the
lucky recipients of a specifically advantageous money-making mutation
in the human genome or if you hold to a common, yet I believe erroneous,
evangelical view which holds god blesses those who are righteous with riches
beyond imagination. And, while this whole meandering of mine into the
subject of economic inequality is core to the humanitarian motivation of many
in the Occupy movement, it is not inequality/fairness of the type you were wanting me to address.

You seem to be concerned over the misconceived fact that the disenfranchised, destitute, debt-laden, evicted, drug addicted, mentally ill, mentally challenged, wretched, hopeless, depressed, left out and the socially conscious and humanely motivated who would care for and advocate for them would be allowed to sleep
in tents in a public park while you, in a totally different time, circumstance and for
completely different reasons had to pay to stand there.

Let me start by saying they don't make a violin small enough to play
the background music to the sympathy I feel for your plight. I don't even buy
that you feel in any sense slighted that you didn't get to sleep in a tent on a
concrete slab in Zucotti Park.

And, I have plenty more to say about your other questions.
I'll get back with you.
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Last edited by rabble; 11-18-2011 at 12:29 AM.
 
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