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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by rabble View Post
At 65, assuming they worked full time for 40 years
(and spent nothing) they would still have only $1,260,000.

Here's a question for you.
What is the bottom line wealth of a rich person?
Assuming they have to consume a portion of it to live, I bet they could still have their million by age 65 if they invested some regular portion instead of buying every frivolous thing they see on TV.

Does a paltry million meet anyone's definition of rich?
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by kju385 View Post
I wouldn't know. Everybody has a price, is that it?
Everybody has a price? You mean that everybody is corruptible?


Quote:
My statement inferred that money can also corrupt, but that the power is more damaging. There is a problem with this approach, if we are all prone to corruption or influence of the money, where does that leave morality and principles? Are they just a wild idea?
I believe that when you are at the top, morality and principales are not their main goal.

I have read the article below, but it is pretty shameful that their interests are above their country, fortunately this is not a big number but, I will be curious how much money they bring with them.

Are Taxes Causing the Rich to Renounce Their Citizenship?
http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2011/06/...r-citizenship/
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Old 03-04-2012, 06:13 PM
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It is said that most rich people come from wealthy families or well educated.
That maybe what is said, but the exact opposite is the truth. Eighty percent of millionaires are first generation.

Based on the comments, it appears that many in this group get their ideas about the rich from watching TV. Below is your typical millionaire profile. You will noticed that items like "Being born to a rich family" , "attending a private school", living in a huge house and driving an expensive car are not on the list.

  • I am a fifty-seven-year-old male, married with three children. About 70 percent of us earn 80 percent or more of our household's income.
  • About one in five of us is retired. About two-thirds of us who are working are self-employed. Interestingly, self-employed people make up less than 20 percent of the workers in America but account for two-thirds of the millionaires. Also, three out of four of us who are self-employed consider ourselves to be entrepreneurs. Most of the others are self-employed professionals, such as doctors and accountants.
  • Many of the types of businesses we are in could be classified as dullnormal. We are welding contractors, auctioneers, rice farmers, owners of mobile-home parks, pest controllers, coin and stamp dealers, and paving contractors.
  • About half of our wives do not work outside the home. The number-one occupation for those wives who do work is teacher.
  • Our household's total annual realized (taxable) income is $131,000 (median, or 50th percentile), while our average income is $247,000. Note that those of us who have incomes in the $500,000 to $999,999 category (8 percent) and the $1 million or more category (5 percent) skew the average upward.
  • We have an average household net worth of $3.7 million. Of course, some of our cohorts have accumulated much more. Nearly 6 percent have a net worth of over $10 million. Again, these people skew our average upward. The typical (median, or 50th percentile) millionaire household has a net worth of $1.6 million.
  • On average, our total annual realized income is less than 7 percent of our wealth. In other words, we live on less than 7 percent of our wealth.
  • Most of us (97 percent) are homeowners. We live in homes currently valued at an average of $320,000. About half of us have occupied the same home for more than twenty years. Thus, we have enjoyed significant increases in the value of our homes.
  • Most of us have never felt at a disadvantage because we did not receive any inheritance. About 80 percent of us are first-generation affluent.
  • We live well below our means. We wear inexpensive suits and drive American-made cars. Only a minority of us drive the current-model-year automobile. Only a minority ever lease our motor vehicles.
  • Most of our wives are planners and meticulous budgeters. In fact, only 18 percent of us disagreed with the statement "Charity begins at home." Most of us will tell you that our wives are a lot more conservative with money than we are.
  • We have a "go-to-hell fund." In other words, we have accumulated enough wealth to live without working for ten or more years. Thus, those of us with a net worth of $1.6 million could live comfortably for more than twelve years. Actually, we could live longer than that, since we save at least 15 percent of our earned income.
  • We have more than six and one-half times the level of wealth of our nonmillionaire neighbors, but, in our neighborhood, these nonmillionaires outnumber us better than three to one. Could it be that they have chosen to trade wealth for acquiring high-status material possessions?
  • As a group, we are fairly well educated. Only about one in five are not college graduates. Many of us hold advanced degrees. Eighteen percent have master's degrees, 8 percent law degrees, 6 percent medical degrees, and 6 percent Ph.D.s.
  • Only 17 percent of us or our spouses ever attended a private elementary or private high school. But 55 percent of our children are currently attending or have attended private schools.
  • As a group, we believe that education is extremely important for ourselves, our children, and our grandchildren. We spend heavily for the educations of our offspring.
  • About two-thirds of us work between forty-five and fifty-five hours per week.
  • We are fastidious investors. On average, we invest nearly 20 percent of our household realized income each year. Most of us invest at least 15 percent. Seventy-nine percent of us have at least one account with a brokerage company. But we make our own investment decisions.
  • We hold nearly 20 percent of our household's wealth in transaction securities such as publicly traded stocks and mutual funds. But we rarely sell our equity investments. We hold even more in our pension plans. On average, 21 percent of our household's wealth is in our private businesses.
  • As a group, we feel that our daughters are financially handicapped in comparison to our sons. Men seem to make much more money even within the same occupational categories. That is why most of us would not hesitate to share some of our wealth with our daughters. Our sons, and men in general, have the deck of economic cards stacked in their favor. They should not need subsidies from their parents.
  • What would be the ideal occupations for our sons and daughters? There are about 3.5 millionaire households like ours. Our numbers are growing much faster than the general population. Our kids should consider providing affluent people with some valuable service. Overall, our most trusted financial advisors are our accountants. Our attorneys are also very important. So we recommend accounting and law to our children. Tax advisors and estate-planning experts will be in big demand over the next fifteen years.
The millionaire next door
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabble
As for your contention all can become rich ...
well ... that is simply hogwash.
The average wage in my hometown is $29,000/yr.
If a working person spent nothing and saved every penny
they would have $290,000 at the end of 10 years.
At 65, assuming they worked full time for 40 years
(and spent nothing) they would still have only $1,260,000.
Your example is inconsistent with the basic definitions of "average" and "rich". Regardless of what dollar value one puts on "rich"... "rich" means they have more than someone of average income.

His contention was that all have the opportunity to become rich... not that it is probable, or the result of making an "average" income. Historically many cultures have forbidden people from moving "above their class". If they weren't born to high station they were forbidden from achieving it regardless of merit.

Here we dont have that restriction. Sure, those born to wealth have a better chance of becoming wealthy adults, but that doesnt stop those that pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

There are plenty of examples of guys that had an idea or a talent who moved into great wealth. In our own time you can count among them Bill Gates, Michael Dell, Mark Zuckerberg, Steve Wozniak, Steve Jobs, Mark Cuban in the tech world. The world of entertainment also supplies many such examples.

One thing these people had in common, they didnt do it working for somebody else. They got rich by going out on a limb and striving to achieve something more than average. Our system was not set up to award wealth to everyone... it was designed to offer opportunity to those who do what's necessary to excel.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Nealrm View Post
That maybe what is said, but the exact opposite is the truth. Eighty percent of millionaires are first generation.
Eithy percent? Where come from these numbers?
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nealrm View Post
  • On average, our total annual realized income is less than 7 percent of our wealth. In other words, we live on less than 7 percent of our wealth.
  • Most of us (97 percent) are homeowners. We live in homes currently valued at an average of $320,000. About half of us have occupied the same home for more than twenty years. Thus, we have enjoyed significant increases in the value of our homes.
  • Most of us have never felt at a disadvantage because we did not receive any inheritance. About 80 percent of us are first-generation affluent.
  • We live well below our means. We wear inexpensive suits and drive American-made cars. Only a minority of us drive the current-model-year automobile. Only a minority ever lease our motor vehicles.
  • Most of our wives are planners and meticulous budgeters. In fact, only 18 percent of us disagreed with the statement "Charity begins at home." Most of us will tell you that our wives are a lot more conservative with money than we are.
  • We have a "go-to-hell fund." In other words, we have accumulated enough wealth to live without working for ten or more years. Thus, those of us with a net worth of $1.6 million could live comfortably for more than twelve years. Actually, we could live longer than that, since we save at least 15 percent of our earned income.
  • We have more than six and one-half times the level of wealth of our nonmillionaire neighbors, but, in our neighborhood, these nonmillionaires outnumber us better than three to one. Could it be that they have chosen to trade wealth for acquiring high-status material possessions?
  • About two-thirds of us work between forty-five and fifty-five hours per week.
  • We are fastidious investors. On average, we invest nearly 20 percent of our household realized income each year. Most of us invest at least 15 percent. Seventy-nine percent of us have at least one account with a brokerage company. But we make our own investment decisions.
  • We hold nearly 20 percent of our household's wealth in transaction securities such as publicly traded stocks and mutual funds. But we rarely sell our equity investments. We hold even more in our pension plans. On average, 21 percent of our household's wealth is in our private businesses.



The millionaire next door
Gee you mean that old boring thing, it isn't what make but what you spend that makes the difference?

Oh saying that isn't going to play well with the bleeding hearts, even if it happens to be the absolute truth.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 07:13 PM
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There are far bigger hurdles.
One is the minimum wage.

Although the minimum wage started out
as a progressive ideal, its intention being
to insure a living wage,
Complete hogwash. The minimum wage was never about insuring a living wage. At best it was meant as a starting point. The premise was that one would make minimum wage only for a short time while they are learning the skills and them move on. If you are not a teenager and you are still making minimum wage after 6 month, then the problem is not the employer it is you. Either you are not bring enough skills or intensity to the job, or you lack the will power to seek out a better job.

I will agree the the minimum wage does promote poverty. But not for any of the reasons you state. By its very nature the minimum wage is inflationary. It also prevents those with no skills, no education and handicaps from getting employed.

The minimum wage is and always has been a political stunt. It is used by liberal candidates to get votes and that is all it has ever successfully done in the long term.



Quote:
over time it has become
an onerous bottom line the rich use to justify
ethically their failure to pay a living wage and
thus it enables the exploitation and degradation
of the working poor without the rich experiencing
a sufficient degree of personal guilt from
their actions.
Those that wish to exploit and degrade the poor are not bothered by guilt. So the premise fails. In addition, implication that all the rich feel this way is bias and prejudice.


Quote:
As for your contention all can become rich ...
well ... that is simply hogwash.
That is a victim mentality. It is also the mentality that is most likely to keep a person from getting rich.

Quote:
The average wage in my hometown is $29,000/yr.
If a working person spent nothing and saved every penny
they would have $290,000 at the end of 10 years.
At 65, assuming they worked full time for 40 years
(and spent nothing) they would still have only $1,260,000.
With math like this, I see were the phrase starving artist comes from.

If the average wage is $29,000; an average 2 wage earner family would earn $58,000. If they saved and invested $29,000 each year at the end of 10 years they would have about $435,300. In 40 years that would grow to $7,784,275. If they started at 20 and worked until 65 (45 years) that becomes $11,613,936. of course on one would save like that. But if they put aside 20% of their income as the typical millionaire does, these number become $174,120 in ten years, $3,113,710 in forty, and $4,645,574 in forty-five years. Heck, just 10% would put them at 1.5M in forty years and over 2 million when they retire at 65.

Truth is most rich people don't became rich by sitting back and waiting for someone to pay them to work. They go out and make a job that allows them to earn a better income. The mentality that you need someone else to create a job for you is the second leading reason many people don't become rich.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 07:18 PM
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I provided the source at the bottom of the list. This is just one of several studies done.
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Old 03-04-2012, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nealrm View Post
Truth is most rich people don't became rich by sitting back and waiting for someone to pay them to work. They go out and make a job that allows them to earn a better income. The mentality that you need someone else to create a job for you is the second leading reason many people don't become rich.
I agree with this but you don't need to be millionaire to have this mind set.

Any entrepreuneur will do that, it doesn't mean that it will be sucessful and I don't tell that because you certainly know it already that many fail.

It is very common that a sucessful entrepreuneur fail a few times before to be completly sucessful.

Many people don't become rich because they don't want to take risks, it doesn't mean that they are worthless.

Personality, I believe that the US system is made for entrepreuneurs, if people don't want to take risks and create an entreprise, they should go in Europe where workers have a very comfortable safety net with many social benefits.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 09:46 PM
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I agree that anyone that values others solely on the basis of their personal wealth is shortsighted.

It may be the measure much of society chooses to use, but the most healthy influences in my life came from worthy tradesmen types that invested their time. That isnt an indictment of the wealthy... They provide opportunities for others too.

There are many ways people can contribute. Discounting the contribution of successful entrepreneurs who provide employment prospects for others is no more right than discounting the contributions of the solid working class guys they employ.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 09:46 PM
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These hit peices are pretty disgusting, if we had more of a free market greed wouldnt be a factor.
 
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Old 03-05-2012, 04:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScriptMan View Post
Does a paltry million meet anyone's definition of rich?
I honestly don't know what rich is.
I feel rich if I have $1,000 cash I don't owe anybody.

Mitt Romney on the other hand ...
thinks $325,000 isn't very much money.

My experience has been expenses
tend to equal 110% of income.
So...I'd say you are correct.
Control expenses and invest wisely;
that is the correct formula for wealth creation.

That is not to say I believe that is rationally an option
for the vast majority of people who have no wealth
to cushion the blows of economic uncertainty.
Talking about the remotely possible is no comfort
to those who must exist in the land of probable.
Adain ... the idea anyone can 'get rich' is a lie
the rich tell themselves to avoid being guiltly
for their sins of omission if not commission.
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Old 03-05-2012, 04:58 AM
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Rich dad poor dad went into this well with time managment. People who work 12 hours a day, 6-7 days a week making 250k a year are poor compared to a person making 125k working a few hours a day 3-4 times a week.
 
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Old 03-05-2012, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by SeaTownJosh View Post
These hit peices are pretty disgusting, if we had more of a free market greed wouldnt be a factor.
Not true. A free market is also highly interpretive.
Simply ceasing all rules would only release the economic carnivores
on easy prey.
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Old 03-05-2012, 05:34 AM
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The market regulates it self, corporations support regulations because they get market share they wouldnt recive in a free market. Thats why companies have 30-90% of a market because the regulations they use to leverage against there competition.

Look at sopa, these companies would have dominated after the government would have jumped into the mix.

Yes reddit and other website were against it but they didnt want there following to get pissed and turn against them in protest. Look at what happend to godaddy, they supported sopa and the free market slapped them down.

If companies in a free market do the wrong thing the market will regulate it self by having those companies lose customers. Profit and loss are the biggest regulators of all.
 
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Old 03-05-2012, 05:35 AM
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That will be harsh to say so! Besides, what is ethical or unethical? Everything is relative to one's point of view and situation demand. Moreover sometimes it is seen that lower income people too are not less unethical! (if unethical means lying, deceiving others, exploiting others, thieving, murdering, smuggling, etc)!
 
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Old 03-05-2012, 05:36 AM
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being rich is simply having enough so that money is not factor in addressing one needs. That can be done by either increasing the amount of money one has or decreasing one needs.
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Old 03-05-2012, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post
Everybody has a price? You mean that everybody is corruptible?
Why the shocked face, it's a common expression someone thought of decades ago or more. If money is what gives you power and corrupts people, than following the same logic one must conclude that it's just a matter of amount at which a person will start to make compromises with their principles. In example, if a company that produces bath and body products with unverified additives and tests them on animals were to offer you two million dollars for continuing advertisment on your website, are you saying that you wouldn't even consider it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post
I believe that when you are at the top, morality and principales are not their main goal.
I agree to an extent, but not all success can be measured in money. This article represents a shameful practice.
 
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Old 03-05-2012, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabble View Post

That is not to say I believe that is rationally an option for the vast majority of people who have no wealth to cushion the blows of economic uncertainty...........
... the idea anyone can 'get rich' is a lie the rich tell themselves to avoid being guiltly for their sins of omission if not commission.

It all starts with a commitment to a Goal. If you can believe it possible your mind can fixate on it then you can achieve. And the good news is it does not take 40 years.

I know people who make minimum wage who have money it the bank, are safe secure and happy and that cash cushion protects them from the economic blows that come along. Some of them at the low point of their life were owned by the greedy bankers and surrendered 20% of all they earned to those bankers in the form of interest.

Resolve to have the baker kiss your butt and then make it happen, the day you pay off your first home you win the game with checkmate. The average person who has not purchased more home than they could afford can do that in 7-10 years without the rip off crap being sold on the internet.
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Old 03-05-2012, 06:58 AM
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Paying off the house is a great step. Add into that not using credit cards and not getting a car loan. Both are fairly easy to do and make a huge effect on your wealth.
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