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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 04-06-2012, 09:37 PM
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Okay, I told Cricket I wouldn't step into another V7N discussion, yet here I go.

Are we safer? From what, exactly? The number of Americans who've died in terrorist attacks, even if you define "terrorist attacks" as loosely as possible, is miniscule compared to the number of Americans who've died from medical errors and/or lack of treatment. Heart disease, for example, in the United States is huge. Yes, I know you rugged individualists will say that that's all personal choice and stuff, but still. If I'm going to die in the United States, as I very likely will, it's most likely to be from heart disease or auto accident rather than a terrorist attack.

Do I feel safe? Not at all, and thanks to the attack on the Affordable Healthcare Act, even less so.

Fact is that I know that without insurance, if I had a heart attack it would bankrupt my entire family. With insurance and all of the disability insurance stuff that's out there, it won't bankrupt us but it will force us to find a trailer to live in.

I live as healthy of a lifestyle as I can, but I can't help thinking of Douglas Adams, who at my age in life died on a damn treadmill in a gym of a heart attack.

Am I safe in this nation? Not at all. Who cares about terrorist activities when a health care issue can ruin me and my family for life?
 
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 04-06-2012, 09:50 PM
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It helps me put things into perspective when I can hear all sides. Thanks you for that!
 
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 04-07-2012, 01:38 AM
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The scariest thing in America right now is the NSA.
[YT]Elb80xou8Zg[/YT]

The NSA Is Building the Country’s Biggest Spy Center (Watch What You Say)

Paul Ryan is also pretty spooky.
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Last edited by rabble; 04-07-2012 at 02:03 AM.
 
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 04-07-2012, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inspired Ink View Post
You need to start a new topic ... would love to see where people might go with so many things you raised here.
Totally agree, so I've copied the post and spun off a new thread from it.

http://www.v7n.com/forums/controvers...cline-usa.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inspired Ink View Post
You forgot #14 ... that's going on here too. Or at least we're seeing a lot of push in that direction.
I thought about including that one too, but since there is no evidence (to my knowledge) of it actually happening, I left that one out.
I know there are "questions" surrounding GWB's first election "win" but they (again, to the best of my knowledge) are just questions. Nothing proven.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inspired Ink View Post
I don't really see religion and government as intertwined though. I'd be curious why you think so, but I think too much discussion of that could detract from a much bigger and better discussion you've suggested ...
Religion and Politics have been bedfellows in the US for a very long time.
Listening to Santorum for 5 minutes on the campaign trail is all the evidence you need of that.
But you could also point to recent laws being enacted in various places with respect to abortion.
Those political fires are fuelled by religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robjones View Post
I made a similar point in another thread recently. People who would bristle at the idea that they have Fascist leanings will stand there and espouse doctrine that is purely Fascist in its composition... they just don't realize it.

Yes, there has been a distinct trend towards Fascist doctrines becoming the law of the land. The recent law about "designated free speech zones" comes to mind... which is a clear violation of our constitution, and it passed with bi-partisan support, was signed by the president, and barely drew a hint of dissension from the media in general.
That, IMO, is one of the scariest components of this. The lack of media attention to what's going on.
People, for the most part, will happily eat up whatever the media tells them and the media in the US is feeding the population stories about the Kardashians and the election ad infinitum.
It keeps the sheeple occupied.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robjones View Post
Then about a week later there was a presidential decree that set up the legal ability for the president to unilaterally decide a situtation required him to commandeer all production in the US, and again you heard a few yelps from Fox and not much from anyone else.

Add to that the guys that'd gladly espouse door to door searches to make sure only cops and the military could legally possess weapons... and we could end up with a bona-fide police state in a heartbeat. Brings to mind that book that I think you mentioned the other day where the guy living in Germany explained how the public inched step by step from a Republic to the totalitarian Nazi regime.
I believe that is one of the most insidious parts of the transformation.
It is designed on purpose to creep up, slowly but steadily, on the citizens so that they deny fascism exists, even as the leader decrees their perogative to take control of all economic production of the state. In fact, you have a large enough portion of the population defending that edict, that it is written off as just part of the normal us versus them divisions within politics that takes place every day.

...Which brings us back to the point I was trying to make by bringing it up in the first place whithin the topic of this thread. I don't believe the US is safer. On the contrary. I believe the biggest threat the US faces these days is from within. I believe that the threat of terrorism is miniscule, compared to the threat from fascists who are already in the US and, indeed, in positions of power everywhere you turn and what's worse is that they have been creating law for at least a decade now. They have a decade's head start on the citizenry, who still largely denies that a problem even exists. So, they have that head start and they currently have the momentum of perception in their favour.
Iran is just one of the latest examples of that. After lying (or misrepresenting, take your pick) about WMDs in Iraq in order to invade, it amazes me how many people will not even question motive with respect to Iran now. Let's be really generous in our viewpoint on government and say that the intelligence surrounding Iraq was terrible and US leaders genuinely believed there was an imminent threat to US national security from WMDs in Iraq. Apply that to Iran today. Why does the government get a pass on their naked assertion that Iran is developing nuclear weapons? What if they're wrong on this too? Or, worse yet, what if they know it's not fact and simply have another agenda? In either event, before committing to, yet, another war, with the loss of so many lives on both sides and the untold cost in economic power that this will take from Americans, how about we just stop to take a few breaths and assess the situation with a really powerful microscope? Let's be absolutely certain that we'll all come out of this on the other side as safer individuals with liberty intact.
 
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 04-07-2012, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zap View Post

Iran is just one of the latest examples of that. After lying (or misrepresenting, take your pick) about WMDs in Iraq in order to invade, it amazes me how many people will not even question motive with respect to Iran now. Let's be really generous in our viewpoint on government and say that the intelligence surrounding Iraq was terrible and US leaders genuinely believed there was an imminent threat to US national security from WMDs in Iraq. Apply that to Iran today. Why does the government get a pass on their naked assertion that Iran is developing nuclear weapons? What if they're wrong on this too? Or, worse yet, what if they know it's not fact and simply have another agenda? In either event, before committing to, yet, another war, with the loss of so many lives on both sides and the untold cost in economic power that this will take from Americans, how about we just stop to take a few breaths and assess the situation with a really powerful microscope? Let's be absolutely certain that we'll all come out of this on the other side as safer individuals with liberty intact.
Iran's side of the story:

"Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has repeatedly insisted that his country is not seeking nuclear weapons, saying that holding such arms is a sin as well as "useless, harmful and dangerous".

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has also asserted that if Iran one day decides to build nuclear weapons, it will do so openly and won't fear anybody."

"Iran says it is enriching uranium to about 3.5 per cent to produce nuclear fuel for its future reactors and also to around 20 per cent to fuel a research reactor that produces medical isotopes to treat cancer treatment. Uranium has to be enriched to more than 90 per cent to be used for a nuclear weapon."

"Iran has the scientific and technological capability to produce (a) nuclear weapon, but will never choose this path," Moghadam told the parliament's news website, icana.ir."


If I were the President of Iran and my country was being threatened daily by Israel and had other countries enforcing sanctions affecting the economy of my country, then I would choose to actually build nuclear weapons so I had a better bargaining chip. Guess Iran's leaders aren't as crazy as me.
 
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 04-07-2012, 04:20 PM
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I'm actually much more interested in the other things you talk about, so no need to keep pursuing these if no one is overly interested, but for the sake of reply ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zap View Post
Totally agree, so I've copied the post and spun off a new thread from it.

http://www.v7n.com/forums/controvers...cline-usa.html
Looking forward to seeing where that goes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zap View Post
I thought about including that one too, but since there is no evidence (to my knowledge) of it actually happening, I left that one out.
I know there are "questions" surrounding GWB's first election "win" but they (again, to the best of my knowledge) are just questions. Nothing proven.
Well, some may say it's jumping to conclusions, but I'd say Obama's bid to have Texas voters allowed into the polls without providing photo ID falls along those lines ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zap View Post
Religion and Politics have been bedfellows in the US for a very long time.
Listening to Santorum for 5 minutes on the campaign trail is all the evidence you need of that.
But you could also point to recent laws being enacted in various places with respect to abortion.
Those political fires are fuelled by religion.
Hmmm ... well, I certainly won't deny that topics of religion are often discussed and related to politics -- particularly when there's an election in the works.

While I am a person of faith, and I am of the conviction that the US WAS established as a Christian nation, whether folks like that or not ... I would not suggest that the government has a place in legislating morality. That's just not how it works. You can make someone obey a law because they are afraid of punishment, but passing a law won't turn them into a moral person.

I also wonder how often dragging religion into politics is done more as a means of garnering support than it is a reflection of one's true convictions.

In spite of that though, I asked the question because I see SO much effort being put forth trying to separate any hint of "religion" from politics most of the time. I was curious to hear why you saw the two as inextricably intertwined in the US.
 
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2012, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inspired Ink View Post
In spite of that though, I asked the question because I see SO much effort being put forth trying to separate any hint of "religion" from politics most of the time. I was curious to hear why you saw the two as inextricably intertwined in the US.
I see efforts directed at separation of politics and religion too.
But I also see efforts aimed at melding them.
And I am looking in from the outside, from a country which doesn't really have much religion within its politics.
...Not that the leaders in my country are inherrently less religious, or anything.
Just that we don't see an awful lot of religion in politics North of the 49th.
 
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2012, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by boblord666
If I were the President of Iran and my country was being threatened daily by Israel...
That statement doesn't just ignore history, it re-writes it. Israel is a speck on the map most of its neighbors have tried to annihilate for decades. Achmendenajad has repeatedly stated intent to destroy the nation of Israel.

Here is a sampling of quotes. Painting Israel as the agressor is unrealistic. Proactive defense mode isn't stupid, it's how they stay alive in a very hostile environment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by achmedenajad
June, 2007: ''God willing, in the near future we will witness the destruction of the corrupt occupier regime..."

June, 2007: ''In Lebanon, the corrupt, arrogant powers and the Zionist regime did all they could in an unfair 33-day war. But after 60 years [Israel's] greatness fell apart...The countdown to this regime's destruction started through the hands of Hezbollah's children...We will witness the destruction of this regime in the near future thanks to the endeavours of all Palestinian and Lebanese fighters.''

August, 2007: "Our support (for the Palestinian people) is unconditional. As for the Israelis, let them go find somewhere else."

August, 2007: "The Zionist regime is the standard bearer of invasion, occupation and Satan...When the philosophy behind the establishment of a regime is in question, it is not unlikely that it will find itself on a course of decline and dissolution."

October 5, 2007: "Canada and Alaska have vast lands, why don't you relocate them over there and keep helping them over there with (aid of) 30 to 40 billion dollars per year for building a new existence over there?"

January, 2008: "I advise you to abandon the filthy Zionist entity which has reached the end of the line... It has lost its reason to be and will sooner or later fall. The ones who still support the criminal Zionists should know that the occupiers' days are numbered."

March, 2008: "Gaza is the beginning, the real issue is elsewhere. They should know that both in the prelude and in the real thing they face a defeat and this time they will be uprooted."

April, 2008: "The time has come to see the weakness and collapse of the Zionist regime and its supporters. They are doing everything in order to save it, but they will not succeed."

May, 2008: "Those who think they can revive the stinking corpse of the usurping and fake Israeli regime by throwing a birthday party are seriously mistaken... Today the reason for the Zionist regime's existence is questioned and this regime is on its way to annihilation...has reached the end like a dead rat after being slapped by the Lebanese."

June, 2008: "(Israel) has reached the end of its function and will soon disappear off the geographical domain."
We all have a right to our own opinions, but not our own facts.
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Last edited by robjones; 04-09-2012 at 09:26 AM.
 
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