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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2012, 03:24 PM
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Zap:

Nothing to see here, folks. The economy is great. Move along.
It doesn't matter if everyone in your house has lost their job.
It doesn't matter that each dollar in your pocket has lost 98% of its purchasing power since inception.
It doesn't matter that everything you need to survive is getting more expensive than a lot of folks can handle.
We have a positive GDP. Everything's fine!
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No need to misquote others and lamely paraphrase in seeking support for your own position.

The original origin of Fascism, Europa is far closer to your comments and probable recurrence due to their economic policies, present condition and decentralized management more in tune to your stated political views than remotely resembling that of the US.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2012, 03:34 PM
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Those of you that know me, know that I tend to be very patriotic, probably excessively so. Very few days pass where I don't stop someone in uniform to thank them for their service.

That being said, I do NOT think it is Un-American to speak out against how our country is run. In fact, imho that is very American. It is a huge part of who we are to even have that freedom.

I love my country and am very proud to be an American. That doesn't mean I think we always get it right. At this moment I believe we are at a crossroad that may cost us the freedoms to which we were born...
 
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Old 04-09-2012, 04:15 PM
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ADDED: Neal - I'd be interested in your opinion on HR 347 vs the First Amendment.
I don't like it for many reasons. I don't like that it restricts the ability to protest and that one can doesn't necessary know what areas are restricted. But I don't agree the reasons that it was an attempt by the government to restrict free speech. Instead, I believe that it was instead born out of government officials frustrated that meetings were being interrupted by a small minority of very vocal protesters. Most Representatives want to hear what the people are saying, but they also need times when they can act on what they where told. The bill appears to me to be a poor attempt to get the protesters to give them some space.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2012, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by robjones View Post
FTR, I got the impression Zap was trying not to be inflammatory in opening this thread, and frankly despite being one of the dreaded colonials myself, some of his points are hard to argue with.

There HAVE been a number of changes that appear Fascist in nature, and rather than having a knee-jerk flagwaving response it might be worth considering the nature of those changes. Is it constitutional for Congress to pass a law establishing "free speech zones" away from the place where a politician is speaking and make it a felony crime to express one's true opinion within earshot of the Secret Service... with them being the deciding factor whether such speech will be allowed?

IMO, that bestows a very Gestapo-like power in the hands of a body that is supposed to protect the president's safety, not shield him from constitutionally protected redress of grievances.

And the presidential decree signed about a week from that law passing, giving the pres authority to unilaterally decide to take over control of all US production... that doesnt strike anyone but our Canadian friend as way the hell off the reservation?

Let's keep the comments thoughtful and as non-flammable as possible. If Zap had come in with a "Hey, the US sucks donkey sweat!" attitude I might have been one of the first to go negative... but he didn't... so let's keep our responses in the thread inside the bounds of discussion and skip crossing over into recrimination. Thanks.
Allow me to just clear something up, right now.

I am not bashing Americans and this is NOT an anti-American thread.
Not at all.
I have stated elsewhere, but I'll restate right in this thread.
The march towards fascism is not a uniquely American thing.
Things are turning away from Democracy in a lot of places, Canada, my homeland, included.
We don't have as much money involved in our politics, but the influence is still there.
And let's face it... If Canada were to go all Mussolini, I doubt many around the world would even notice.
The US, on the other hand... That's a different story.
Canada and the UK? We're just following your lead.
If you guys start turning things around in the US, then we can begin to do the same.

Someone (or, more likely, a group of someones) has got a stranglehold on politicians in the UK, in Canada and in the US.
This is not some paranoid theory. It is a fact.
Anyone with an open mind can see it. All you need to do is look at the evidence.
More laws are being created that take away this right or that right all the time.
It's gotten so bad that we've gotten used to the idea.
I don't expect this topic is going to be happy, happy, joy, joy. It's serious stuff.
And I don't expect everyone is going to see these things readily.
Some don't want to see them, even when facts are staring them in the face.
It's called normalcy bias, and I've clearly upset Nealrm's normalcy bias with my comments.
Can't say I blame him. I didn't like the feeling much when I started to wake up, either.
But the fact that I didn't like the truth, was not reason to disregard it.

But the hope is that enough people will wake up so that we can all change things together.
I do strongly believe that fascism is coming to our respective countries and that a dictatorship won't be far behind it if we do nothing.
It's not some wild possibility, nor some fantasy.
It happened before in Germany and there is no reason to think that it couldn't happen again if we allow it.
But this time around, I believe we have a game changer in the internet.
In the 30s, Germans couldn't communicate with each other or the rest of the world nearly as freely as we can today.
If Germans and non-Germans alike had discussed where the country was going in open comunications, such as on this forum, then things might have been very different in our history books.
The video Cricket posted shows just how good people can do bad things under the right amount and form of pressure.

Corporations are running the show.
It doesn't matter if the President is Democratic or Republican.
It doesn't matter who holds the house, nor the senate.
The piper plays the same tune and the sitting politicians dance to it.
Like it or lump it, that is fascism.

[YT]gIcqb9hHQ3E[/YT]
 
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2012, 10:21 PM
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I saw a cool graphic on FB that said something along the lines of, "I love my country. It's the government that scares the heck out of me."
 
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 04-11-2012, 06:21 AM
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Money often breeds contempt in those who have it for those who don't.
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
With so much money involved in politics these days, it's no wonder we see abuses and an escalation of the siezure of power, most especially when the majority remains silent on the issue.
 
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Old 04-11-2012, 09:13 AM
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OK much talk on this topic has been comparing the US to Nazi Germany and if condition here are showing a trend towards fascism. So what were the conditions under which Hitler was elected. First Germany was struggling under the Treaty of Versailles. Most of the countries resource were stripped from it, Germany was required to repay the worlds cost of WWI, and many of the means to produce those repayment were restricted. Unemployment was 50% and hyper inflation meant that paychecks received in the morning lost significant value before they could be spent that evening. The government was disarray. The prior 4 Chancellor had only held office for a few months each. The public was desperate. Of the 14 points that started this thread, you would not have seen them in 1933. Nationalism - not present, Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - consistent with the times, Scapegoats - not present, Supremacy of the Military - Military was outlawed by treaty, Sexism - consistent with the times, Controlled Mass Media - no, National Security- outlawed by treaty, Religion and Government are Intertwined - consistent with the times, Corporate Power is Protected - consistent with the times, Labor Power is Suppressed - 50% unemployment did mean little labor power .....

All the items on the list came about in a period from 1933 to 1936. So there was not a slow change, it was rapid and it was very much forced upon the population by the government. So how did he make these rapid changes, first the population was desperate so they would follow anyone that offered a solution. Second, the other political parties were weak. Once in office he used Keynesian methods to get the population back to word and price controls to stop inflation. He provided incentives for companies that invested to businesses that provided employment. This is all fairly standard stuff and many will say that because we are doing these same things now means we are marching toward fascism. However, it is not these item that show the marching direction, it is the other programs that when into effect that show the marching direction.

The unemployed were required to ether accept government assigned jobs or go to the concentration camps. Unions were outlawed. Undesirables (Jews, political opposition, and others) were sent to concentration camps and used as slave labor. The military spending rose to 10% of GDP (FYI - in 2010 the US was at a recent high point of 4.7%). Anyone that chose to speak out against him or the party was arrested and sent to the concentration. In many case this extended not only to the person, but his family and close friends.

So really, those 14 points that started this topic are not the means that fascist use to gain power, they are the means they use to retain power. They gain power by taking advantage of disheartened and desperate people seeking any hope. So, how do you put a fascist in power. You tell people things are bad, that they have never been worse, that things are only going to get worse. You make them hate the people that succeed and help build the economy. You tell them not to trust those in government because they only lie and support those are succeeding. You tell them that it is not their fault they have not prospered, that others working undetected have conspired to keep them from prospering. You make them live in fear but overexposing them to crime and the negative aspects of life. You take the good, as expose any flaws it has to the extreme. In general you spout forth negativism at everything and about everything.

So how do you stop fascism? Positiveness! You look around and see the good and promote it. You acknowledge that just because something is not perfect that doesn't mean it is completely faulty. You accept that perfect is a goal, a process, an end point we may never reach and that failure to reach it today does not mean we should stop trying. Do not overexpose the negative. Neither hide from it or dwell on it.

Last-Zap if I was a little over the top in any of my replies I apologize. I felt the original post was sort of like say "You know, your wife is similar to Norman Bate, here let me tell you how". While many of the point should be discussed, comparison with groups like Nazis should be avoided.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 04-11-2012, 09:56 AM
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I think you're focusing too much on Germany, Nealrm.
That was one (and probably the most recognized) fascist system.
But the original author of the list had stated that they took several different fascist regimes and tried to find commonality amongst them and came up with the list of 14.

The fact that corporate control over the political process means that fascism exists, not whether or not the US is mimicking Germany.

The merger of political and corporate power is the very definition of fascism so how can one deny its existence in a coutry where the politicians are controlled by corporations and the President recently signed a bill into law that allows him to sieze control over the major components of economic production within the US?
That defies logic.
 
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 04-11-2012, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by zap
The merger of political and corporate power is the very definition of fascism so how can one deny its existence in a coutry where the politicians are controlled by corporations and the President recently signed a bill into law that allows him to sieze control over the major components of economic production within the US?
That defies logic.
Worse yet, that wasnt a "bill" signed into law. Bills go thru congress first. This was a presidential decree, a one man fiat. The law was the product of one man, and it gave that same man unprecedented power.

I don't care what party you're in fellas, that's not good. That's tilting way the hell into totalitarianism.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 04-12-2012, 05:33 AM
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Worse yet, that wasnt a "bill" signed into law. Bills go thru congress first. This was a presidential decree, a one man fiat. The law was the product of one man, and it gave that same man unprecedented power.

I don't care what party you're in fellas, that's not good. That's tilting way the hell into totalitarianism.
Ah, yes. Thanks for the correction.
Presidential edict, not a bill.

Emperor Obama has spoken.
 
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Old 04-12-2012, 01:00 PM
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Let's see if we can straighten up some stuff.
I agree the present government of the US has a fascist look and feel to it.
We should still keep the facts sorted out. Obama did not pull this stuff out of his hat.
I believe the bill authorizing the president (any president) extended war time
powers was authorized by a republican congress and signed into law by Bill Clinton.
All the Obama administration did was release rules and regulations whereby the
authorization could be implemented.

I just want to make clear this isn't a singular administration orchestration.
This has been rolling along in the background for quite some time.
I just wonder if we're all gonna act surprised when Jack pops
out of this box we've been cranking.
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Old 04-17-2012, 05:16 PM
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What goes up must come down. All great civilizations of the past have eventually fallen. Admittedly I only scanned the thread, I noticed a few comparisons with Germany. I would be more inclined to make comparisons with the Roman Empire, as have many more qualified than I will ever be.

That national debt of yours seem rather scary, and it just keeps growing. Not sure how you will pay it off without a massive hit to your standard of living. A lot of talk about Social Security collapsing due to underfunding sometime in the next decade or 2. Although it's hard to separate the hype from the facts as much is being said about the impending collapse of U.S. Hegemony. It will happen eventually, whether or not it happens in our lifetimes at all is another matter.

I'm not political or economics expert, just some observations, take them with a heavy grain of salt.

Last edited by Seven3; 04-17-2012 at 05:19 PM.
 
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Old 04-17-2012, 05:18 PM
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An imbalance between rich and poor is the oldest and most fatal ailment of all republics.

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Old 04-17-2012, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by rabble View Post
Let's see if we can straighten up some stuff.
I agree the present government of the US has a fascist look and feel to it.
We should still keep the facts sorted out. Obama did not pull this stuff out of his hat.
I believe the bill authorizing the president (any president) extended war time
powers was authorized by a republican congress and signed into law by Bill Clinton.
All the Obama administration did was release rules and regulations whereby the
authorization could be implemented.

I just want to make clear this isn't a singular administration orchestration.
This has been rolling along in the background for quite some time.
I just wonder if we're all gonna act surprised when Jack pops
out of this box we've been cranking.

I think Rabble has his facts straight here.
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Old 04-17-2012, 05:45 PM
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I saw a cool graphic on FB that said something along the lines of, "I love my country. It's the government that scares the heck out of me."
I was finally able to reach the artist of this image to get permission to share it with y'all.


Tonya Crawford Folk Art
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 04-18-2012, 09:24 PM
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I think people in just about all countries can say that. I once worked with somebody from Iran, he kept saying to people that it was a great country with great people but the current government was the problem.
 
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:22 AM
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I think people in just about all countries can say that. I once worked with somebody from Iran, he kept saying to people that it was a great country with great people but the current government was the problem.
I agree with you on that score, but people dont generally risk their life trying to break into Iran... swimming rivers in the dead of night or turning 57 Chevy's into 10 man barges that wash up on the Florida beach. I'll be durned if I'll let our government off the hook because they are no worse than some other... they will be held to a higher standard. If they arent comfortable with the higher standard, they can move to Iran.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2012, 05:20 AM
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Western nations are supposed to be the upholders and defenders of freedom, not the destroyers of it.
Or... at least... that's the stance that they keep brainwashing us with.
 
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Old 04-19-2012, 07:31 AM
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Western nations are supposed to be the upholders and defenders of freedom, not the destroyers of it.
Or... at least... that's the stance that they keep brainwashing us with.
Excellent post Zap.

Governements in western nations brainwashing us because the masters of the castles have changed.

I will say that since the 30's the bankers have worked hard to take the control of all western nations through the central banks cartel and financial banks. Follow the money and behind you will discover the reason of the war world I and II which are not what our governements told us. It was more obvious with the Irak war that the real reason was the control of the crude oil and financial transactions of the crude in dollar.

I am wondering when they will stop to use us as "de la chair a canon" for their very own interests, perhaps when all the people are going to wake up and some have already weaken up to educate the others.

You have to study the geoeconomic and geopolitic to get the whole picture, and beleive me you are not going to learn that in the mass media controlled by the same masters.
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