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  #1  
Old 04-06-2012, 02:47 PM
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Zap Zap is offline
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Originally posted in another thread, it was suggested that this could be a topic unto itself and I agree.

So... As it pertains to the decline of the USA via Fascism and Economic circumstances, what are your thoughts?

Do you feel the hole created by the current economic situation is too deep to crawl out of?
What type of nation do you envision popping out the other side of this crisis?
And are revival efforts moot anyway, given the current march towards fascism?

Fourteen Defining Characteristics Of Fascism

Quote:
Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
#1,2,3,4,6,7,8,9,12 and 13 are descriptive enough of the USA today.

How can the USA be a better alternative to fascism when it is clearly engaging in it?

The dictator has not yet shown his face, but everything is in place for the day he decides to.


Just an obvservation from outside your country, but if you want America to be safer, you could go a long way towards making that happen by making more friends and less enemies around the world, allowing your citizens more real liberty and less lip service to it and putting a stop to as much of the corruption within politics as you possibly can.

I believe your government's stance on Iran is going to play an integral part in the undoing of your nation. That, and the demise of the Federal Reserve, which is quickly running out of options. The BRICS nations (Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa) are already taking steps to create their own currency for trading, with the goal of dumping the US dollar and I'm pretty sure we will see at least 1 of those nations continue to buy oil from Iran after the deadline imposed by these sanctions. Together, they comprise almost half of the Earth's population and make up the new emerging economies. The US is still embroiled in the longest war in your history in Afghanistan, still reeling from the losses in Iraq, ignoring the failure to install democracy in Libya, attempting the same in Syria and now is talking tough with Iran??? Where does it end? And how does this all make the US safer?

Last edited by Zap; 04-07-2012 at 04:50 AM.
 
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  #2  
Old 04-07-2012, 12:58 PM
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I always find it a little annoying when someone takes the work of a study and misapplies it. Yes, fascist regimes do share the above characteristics but to the extreme. To an extent all nations will share most of the above characteristics. The question is not if they have these characteristic, but are they at the fanatical about them.

You mentioned several that you believe matches the US. I think you you are mistaken. So let address them.

1) All nations have national pride. And yes you will find the flags flying here. When I visit Canada I see flags flying there also, same with Mexico. The difference between that and a fascist regime is scope. In the fascist regime you could not escape see a flag or other paraphernalia. It was on almost every building, every wall. every pole.

2) Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights. Fascist regimes tortured, executed, and imprisoned tens of thousand of people. They used extreme forms of torture and mass executions. Sorry, but I haven't heard of any government sponsored burning, or people being lined up and executed lately.

3) people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe Saying that there is a threat and we need to be concerned, does not equal patriotic frenzy. A patriotic frenzy is people marching the streets, burning the foe's image, wholesale ransacking those are perceived to be part of that group. Again, not happening here.

4) Supremacy of the Military Yes we have a big military. I'll even except there is an argument for reducing it spending and size. But, again there is a large difference in scope between this and fascist regimes. In those regimes there were large segments of the population that were starving to death, and dieing because of the lack of proper housing or clothing. Again, not happening here.

6) Controlled Mass Media It's more likely that the mass media control the government than the government controls the media. Given the government's inability to stop many of the negative reports, say that they control it is a joke.

7) Obsession with National Security Saying that there is a threat and we need to be concerned, does not equal an obsession.

8} Religion and Government are Intertwined While many do use morals that are based on religion when deciding which candidates to support, that is greatly different than the government and religion being intertwined. People use their own person belief and life experiences when making these decision. But again, there is a huge difference in scope between having the public using the religious morals as part of the criteria in selecting which candidate to support and having the leader of the government believe he is ruling by divine right.

9) Corporate Power is Protected The happen in every single nation in the world. Those that have money or resource will an a greater effect on who gets elected than those that don't. It happens in Canada too.

12) Obsession with Crime and Punishment. Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The police here clearly don't have unlimited power to enforce law. Not even close. While there are some cases were the media has sensationalized the actions of a limited number of policemen, in reality those cases are rare. There are thousands of policemen in the US, some of them will be bad.

13) Rampant Cronyism and Corruption Fascist regimes have one group control everything and will exploit any means to suppress those that appose them. Last time I check Obama hasn't had the GOP leaders rounded up and executed.


I will end this by say that I have direct access to someone that saw what happens under a fascist regime first hand. My mother grow up in Berlin in the 30' and 40's, she saw Hitler speak, she saw each of the above items first hand. She would also call you an idiot for saying that the US in anyway compares to what happened in those regimes.

I instead will call you naive. You see things that are not perfect and assume they are on the same scale as past egregiousness deeds. Sorry but you are off by several scales of magnitude.
 
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  #3  
Old 04-07-2012, 03:41 PM
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Don't really have time to get very far into this, and I'm more of a political observer than expert by any means ... but I see that you ended up talking about scale.

That's what I was thinking about while you were disputing the above points. It *IS* all about scale but ... I doubt things would suddenly leap from one extreme to another. You know the story of boiling a frog? The one that says you can't drop a frog into a pot of boiling water and expect him to stay there, but if you slowly increase the temperature you can end up cooking him?

I don't really know if that works with frogs or not. But it seems to me that if one wanted to accomplish large sweeping goals, it would be prudent to do it via small steps. From a psychological standpoint, it works much better that way. And quite frankly, I don't like the "steps" I see over the past years ...

(BTW, I'm somewhat in agreement with you over the media on #6 ... I can't decide WHAT to think there. Clearly they DO have tremendous power, and I would argue that they have been largely responsible for the outcomes in more than one presidential election. But ... who is pulling the strings there? Someone is -- it seems any thinking person can realize there are agendas being accomplished by the media. But is public opinion being led by the media because of the influence of those in politics, those in the media, those in business, or who?)
 
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Old 04-08-2012, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Zap: The dictator has not yet shown his face, but everything is in place for the day he decides to.

Oddly Zap, he has shown his face - Ron Paul ... [comment removed]

and curtailing the Great 07-09 Recession and preventing a new "Turn of the Century - World Depression" is what has stopped its occurrence.

and a good reason for voting for the present Administration and the Policies of the Federal Reserve.
 
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Old 04-08-2012, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
curtailing the Great 07-09 Recession and preventing a new "Turn of the Century - World Depression" is what has stopped its occurrence.

and a good reason for voting for the present Administration and the Policies of the Federal Reserve.
The current administration didn't curtail the recession they prolonged it. We should have been out of this mess 18 to 24 months sooner. There is no reason for it to have lasted 4 years.
 
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Old 04-08-2012, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Breeze Wood View Post
Oddly Zap, he has shown his face - Ron Paul ... [comment removed]

and curtailing the Great 07-09 Recession and preventing a new "Turn of the Century - World Depression" is what has stopped its occurrence.

and a good reason for voting for the present Administration and the Policies of the Federal Reserve.
I have a habit of believing the best in people. Because of that I have removed a comment in your response, as I am certain that you didn't mean for it to come across as disrespectfully as it seemed to.

Please don't prove me wrong.

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  #7  
Old 04-09-2012, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nealrm View Post
1) All nations have national pride. And yes you will find the flags flying here. When I visit Canada I see flags flying there also, same with Mexico. The difference between that and a fascist regime is scope. In the fascist regime you could not escape see a flag or other paraphernalia. It was on almost every building, every wall. every pole.
I would argue that there is a lot more flag waving going on in the US than in Canada. Never been to Mexico, so I couldn't say.
But just looking at the language of some of the latest laws to be passed, the NDAA for example, will help illustrate the extreme nationalism taking place.
The media even reported, several times, the clarification that this piece of legislation did, indeed, apply to Americans. In fact, the media gave that point more importance than the fact that people could be murdered without due process. They seemed to be more concerned that this could actually pertain to Americans! Much less concern for the tyrranical power contained within the law. That sounds like pretty extreme nationalism to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nealrm View Post
2) Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights. Fascist regimes tortured, executed, and imprisoned tens of thousand of people. They used extreme forms of torture and mass executions. Sorry, but I haven't heard of any government sponsored burning, or people being lined up and executed lately.
I'm afraid the naivety is yours.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantan...detention_camp
Guantanamo Bay is just the most known of US torture facilities throughout the world and the practice of extraordinary rendition is also well known outside of your household.
If you prefer to wait until they come to your home to take you away, that is your perogative, but I feel it only fair to warn you that there are others who will recognize the fascism much sooner than that.
Score: Darwin 1, Nealrm 0
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Originally Posted by Nealrm View Post
3) people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe Saying that there is a threat and we need to be concerned, does not equal patriotic frenzy. A patriotic frenzy is people marching the streets, burning the foe's image, wholesale ransacking those are perceived to be part of that group. Again, not happening here.
A patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a percieved common threat is also The War On Terror, which is accentuated by "If You See Something, Say Something" (ie. Snitch on your neighbours) and fancy colour coded THREAT ALERT charts (Gee. What colour are we at today?) and the introduction of the DHS, TSA "screenings".
Can you really not see how all of the hoopla surrounding this has been way overblown? And very little of it has made you safer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nealrm View Post
4) Supremacy of the Military Yes we have a big military. I'll even except there is an argument for reducing it spending and size. But, again there is a large difference in scope between this and fascist regimes. In those regimes there were large segments of the population that were starving to death, and dieing because of the lack of proper housing or clothing. Again, not happening here.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...77L45Z20110822
Over 46 million people on food stamps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nealrm View Post
6) Controlled Mass Media It's more likely that the mass media control the government than the government controls the media. Given the government's inability to stop many of the negative reports, say that they control it is a joke.
To say that the melding of media and government is not fascism, is the joke of your statement. It is the very definition of fascism. That just proves what I stated earlier. There are those, such as yourself, who don't see the fascism, even when it's staring them in the face and will defend fascist examples while denying its existence. Fascinating!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nealrm View Post
7) Obsession with National Security Saying that there is a threat and we need to be concerned, does not equal an obsession.
Very true. But pointing that out does not erase the obsession with national security that exists within the US today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nealrm View Post
8} Religion and Government are Intertwined While many do use morals that are based on religion when deciding which candidates to support, that is greatly different than the government and religion being intertwined. People use their own person belief and life experiences when making these decision. But again, there is a huge difference in scope between having the public using the religious morals as part of the criteria in selecting which candidate to support and having the leader of the government believe he is ruling by divine right.
I could start with GWB and his admission that he speaks to God, but we'll fast forward to Rick Santorum and his views on gay marriage.
http://news.advocate.com/post/207563...ng-of-santorum
He's apparently your "Religious Freedom Fighter" and he plans to make some religion, the law of the land.
Deny the connection between religion and politics at your own peril.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nealrm View Post
9) Corporate Power is Protected The happen in every single nation in the world. Those that have money or resource will an a greater effect on who gets elected than those that don't. It happens in Canada too.
Yes it does. It happens everywhere.
But here's the thing... When a former leader steals 1.6 billion dollars from his clients, in Canada, at least, he tends to get in trouble for it. So, in that sense, corporate power is not as protected elsewhere as it is in the USA. You've been suffering the effects of a major financial collapse for almost 4 years now and not a single person has gone to jail for it. Not one.
THAT, my friend, is corporate power to be in awe of!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nealrm View Post
12) Obsession with Crime and Punishment. Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The police here clearly don't have unlimited power to enforce law. Not even close. While there are some cases were the media has sensationalized the actions of a limited number of policemen, in reality those cases are rare. There are thousands of policemen in the US, some of them will be bad.
You are just acting ridiculous now.
Protests all over the US (and yes, elsewhere) have been broken up, meaning the right to free speech doesn't exist anymore as you once knew it. Have a look at HR 347 for more clarity on the issue if you doubt it. And that is only one law which restricts what you can say and where. Even when they make a law specifically stating that you do not have the right to protest here, here, or here or there, you still believe you have that right.
Again, remarkable!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nealrm View Post
13) Rampant Cronyism and Corruption Fascist regimes have one group control everything and will exploit any means to suppress those that appose them. Last time I check Obama hasn't had the GOP leaders rounded up and executed.
Your idea rests upon the faulty notion that the Democrats and the Republicans aren't working for the same interests.
They are.
They only differ in HOW they take wealth and power from the people but they both do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nealrm View Post
I will end this by say that I have direct access to someone that saw what happens under a fascist regime first hand. My mother grow up in Berlin in the 30' and 40's, she saw Hitler speak, she saw each of the above items first hand. She would also call you an idiot for saying that the US in anyway compares to what happened in those regimes.

I instead will call you naive. You see things that are not perfect and assume they are on the same scale as past egregiousness deeds. Sorry but you are off by several scales of magnitude.
Call me what you wish, for I know that you can't see clearly right now.
You're still asleep.
I never said that the US is the same as Nazi Germany, not yet, at least. But it is heading in that direction. And since you have access to such a great resource of historical knowledge, might I suggest that you ask her how things were like in Berlin in the 20s? She will probably tell you all about how Germany was a free, porsperous and open society with a very bright future. Sound like somewhere you live?

As I stated before, which you seem not to understand, is that these things happen very slowly in measured incremental steps over time. And they happen that way precisely so that most folks don't notice it. You are proof of that. Just ask yourself honestly. Who has the most control over your politicians? I would love to see you answer that truthfully, while denying facism exists.
 
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  #8  
Old 04-09-2012, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Breeze Wood View Post
Oddly Zap, he has shown his face - Ron Paul ... [comment removed]

and curtailing the Great 07-09 Recession and preventing a new "Turn of the Century - World Depression" is what has stopped its occurrence.

and a good reason for voting for the present Administration and the Policies of the Federal Reserve.
So... You think Ron Paul is the dictator who has control of your politicians on both sides of the aisle and has control of the country? He's the one responsible for all the fascist policies being made law? He's responsible for the media ignoring that fact? If he had that much power, don't you think he'd direct some of it towards getting himself a better position in his bid to become Republican leader? Becoming President would seemingly be the goal of a dictator who also happened to be running for the Presidency. Wouldn't you think?

The present administration has done nothing to reverse the march towards fascism. In fact, they've participated in the march more than the last administration.
And the policies of the Federal Reserve are in play right now to ensure that nobody has any money or power to do anything when the dictator finally decides to come out of hiding.
How is a significantly devalued dollar going to protect you from the march of fascism?
How are bank bailouts (confiscation of wealth from the public by corporations) supposed to work to protect you from fascism?
How are zero interest rates (punishing savers), matched against the inflation rate (misreported by government at about 3%) and the financial theft that brings about, supposed to protect you from fascism?
In fact, how is any method of fascism supposed to protect you from fascism?
 
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:11 AM
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Jim Gillum Jim Gillum is offline
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Those who know the best way to fix MY country....should live here and run for president...

We could use a few more brilliant folks to fix things..
 
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:30 AM
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Those who know the best way to fix MY country....should live here and run for president...

We could use a few more brilliant folks to fix things..
Short of another world war that most sane people wouldn't want, you guys are going to have to fix things yourselves.
I strongly suspect, when enough of you get angry enough, you'll do just that.
 
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:07 AM
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This movie is actually ends up discussing abortion, but I challenge you to watch it anyway to see information about Hitler and how he really took full control of the people.

Yes it is long and a bit on the emotional side, but some of the information blew my mind.

[YT]7y2KsU_dhwI[/YT]
 
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Zap View Post
Short of another world war that most sane people wouldn't want, you guys are going to have to fix things yourselves.
I strongly suspect, when enough of you get angry enough, you'll do just that.

Zap: ..... you guys are going to have to fix things yourselves.

The present Administration has done exactly that.


Quote:
Nealrm: The current administration didn't curtail the recession they prolonged it. We should have been out of this mess 18 to 24 months sooner. There is no reason for it to have lasted 4 years.
The 07-09 Great Recession was curtailed in June of 09 by the the Administration with a positive GDP, first since Dec. 07 that has remained positive since that time.


Quote:
Zap: So... As it pertains to the decline of the USA via Fascism and Economic circumstances, what are your thoughts?
As it pertains ...

may we ... suggest it pertains not to the Country but a political party ???


the political upheaval in regards to the present economic conditions revolves around a single and yet misunderstood word ... "Trillion".

Last edited by Breeze Wood; 04-09-2012 at 09:40 AM.
 
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Old 04-09-2012, 11:17 AM
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Nothing to see here, folks. The economy is great. Move along.
It doesn't matter if everyone in your house has lost their job.
It doesn't matter that each dollar in your pocket has lost 98% of its purchasing power since inception.
It doesn't matter that everything you need to survive is getting more expensive than a lot of folks can handle.
We have a positive GDP. Everything's fine!
 
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Old 04-09-2012, 12:41 PM
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I suggest that you ask her how things were like in Berlin in the 20s? She will probably tell you all about how Germany was a free, porsperous and open society with a very bright future.
You fail history class didn't you. The 1920's in Germany was not a good time. The Treaty of Versailles left Germany deeply in debt, and severally restricted it's ability to trade. Hyper-inflation made the currency worthless. This all set the stage to Hilter raise to power.

Quote:
Over 46 million people on food stamps.
The fact that they are getting food stamps clearly proves that resource are being proved for providing those in need with food.

Quote:
I could start with GWB and his admission that he speaks to God, but we'll fast forward to Rick Santorum and his views on gay marriage.
So praying or having religious beliefs means you shouldn't hold a political position?? That the views of a candidate that doesn't currently hold a public office, can't even get a majority of his own party to support him, indicates the intertwining of religion and government?? What are we going to state that only atheists can run for office?

Quote:
Protests all over the US (and yes, elsewhere) have been broken up, meaning the right to free speech doesn't exist anymore as you once knew it.
Now you are being ridiculous. If you are referring to the occupy walk street protest, those where there for months. There were broken up because they were damaging public property and creating unsanitary conditions. Even then they could still continue the protest, they just couldn't live in the parks.

Quote:
Call me what you wish, for I know that you can't see clearly right now.
You're still asleep.
I never said that the US is the same as Nazi Germany, not yet, at least. But it is heading in that direction. And since you have access to such a great resource of historical knowledge, might I suggest that you ask her how things were like in Berlin in the 20s? She will probably tell you all about how Germany was a free, porsperous and open society with a very bright future. Sound like somewhere you live?

As I stated before, which you seem not to understand, is that these things happen very slowly in measured incremental steps over time. And they happen that way precisely so that most folks don't notice it. You are proof of that. Just ask yourself honestly. Who has the most control over your politicians? I would love to see you answer that truthfully, while denying facism exists.
I do see clearly, my view is not clouded by paranoia, false demons or exaggerated issues nor is it cloud by undue optimism or false pride. Unfortunately, your comments indicate everything you see about the US is viewed through a paranoid vision. While I do agree that we can improve and that there are areas we fail, I deny that we are fascist or are heading towards fascism. I'm sorry, but you completely fail to see that the scope of your arguments don't match your conclusion. Much like the child screaming they are dieing from a skinned knee, you are really over exaggerating the extent of the issue.
 
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Old 04-09-2012, 01:09 PM
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FTR, I got the impression Zap was trying not to be inflammatory in opening this thread, and frankly despite being one of the dreaded colonials myself, some of his points are hard to argue with.

There HAVE been a number of changes that appear Fascist in nature, and rather than having a knee-jerk flagwaving response it might be worth considering the nature of those changes. Is it constitutional for Congress to pass a law establishing "free speech zones" away from the place where a politician is speaking and make it a felony crime to express one's true opinion within earshot of the Secret Service... with them being the deciding factor whether such speech will be allowed?

IMO, that bestows a very Gestapo-like power in the hands of a body that is supposed to protect the president's safety, not shield him from constitutionally protected redress of grievances.

And the presidential decree signed about a week from that law passing, giving the pres authority to unilaterally decide to take over control of all US production... that doesnt strike anyone but our Canadian friend as way the hell off the reservation?

Let's keep the comments thoughtful and as non-flammable as possible. If Zap had come in with a "Hey, the US sucks donkey sweat!" attitude I might have been one of the first to go negative... but he didn't... so let's keep our responses in the thread inside the bounds of discussion and skip crossing over into recrimination. Thanks.
 
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Old 04-09-2012, 01:30 PM
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Now you are being ridiculous. If you are referring to the occupy walk street protest, those where there for months. There were broken up because they were damaging public property and creating unsanitary conditions. Even then they could still continue the protest, they just couldn't live in the parks.
I so very disagree. Damage to public property was entirely trumped up.
You should see what happened to the infield here in Cambridge's baseball
park when GW Bush came to speak for 45 minutes in the rain in 2003.
What were they supposed to do, float off the ground? As for unsanitary conditions:
that is entirely the fault of city administrators who failed to provide proper facilities
even though they knew the extent of and the duration of the use would result in those conditions.

Lastly, although executed on a local level,
The crackdown on wall street was coordinated nationally.

Last edited by rabble; 04-09-2012 at 01:35 PM.
 
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Old 04-09-2012, 01:42 PM
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Damage to public property was entirely trumped up.
Several hundred people in a limited area for several weeks is going to cause damage. I didn't mean to imply the damage was on purpose or vandalism.

Quote:
As for unsanitary conditions: that is entirely the fault of city administrators who failed to provide proper facilities even though they knew the extent of and the duration of the use would result in those conditions.
While I believe in the right to protest, I don't believe that the government has to provide material support for those protest. They should have brought their own.
 
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Old 04-09-2012, 01:49 PM
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@robjone - While I don't like everything that is going on and I believe that we need to keep working toward improvement, I strongly disagree that this is a march towards fascism. As for being inflammatory, it is really hard to compare a country to negative aspects of Nazi Germany without it being offensive.
 
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Old 04-09-2012, 01:55 PM
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While I believe in the right to protest, I don't believe that the government has to provide material support for those protest. They should have brought their own.
How convenient the economically aggrieved can not afford to protest.

A city claims to be unable to provide sanitary conveniences
yet covers the great expense of a military style police assault?

Last edited by rabble; 04-09-2012 at 01:58 PM.
 
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Old 04-09-2012, 02:08 PM
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Neal - If you'd been here a little longer I'm probably the first you'd have expected to get offended, but I'm even more offended when my own government does things that genuinely invite the comparison, especially when the comparison comes from someone who has no history of criticizing the US just out of some nationalistic desire to put us down in hopes of making their country look taller.

There are times when considering the source makes a difference. If some guy with a visible and obvious rabid anti-US bias comes in and starts blasting away it's one thing. When someone that normally doesn't do that poses a comparison we don't like, it doesn't hurt to think before pulling the trigger. They could have a point, and discussing it doesnt hurt.
ADDED: Neal - I'd be interested in your opinion on HR 347 vs the First Amendment.

IMO... the law makes political dissent a felony. The only purpose it seems to serve is to protect officeholders from hearing dissent.

Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Last edited by robjones; 04-09-2012 at 02:25 PM.
 
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