Tax havens: Super-rich 'hiding' at least $21tn

[Brave7]

A global super-rich elite had at least $21 trillion (£13tn) hidden in secret tax havens by the end of 2010, according to a major study.

The figure is equivalent to the size of the US and Japanese economies combined.

The Price of Offshore Revisited was written by James Henry, a former chief economist at the consultancy McKinsey, for by the Tax Justice Network.

Tax expert and UK government adviser John Whiting said he was sceptical that the amount hidden was so large.

Mr Whiting, director of the Office of Tax Simplification, said: "There clearly are some significant amounts hidden away, but if it really is that size what is being done with it all?"

Mr Henry said his $21tn is actually a conservative figure and the true scale could be $32tn. A trillion is 1,000 billion.

Mr Henry used data from the Bank of International Settlements, International Monetary Fund, World Bank, and national governments.

His study deals only with financial wealth deposited in bank and investment accounts, and not other assets such as property and yachts.

The report comes amid growing public and political concern about tax avoidance and evasion. Some authorities, including in Germany, have even paid for information on alleged tax evaders stolen from banks.

The group that commissioned the report, Tax Justice Network, campaigns against tax havens.

Mr Henry said that the super-rich move money around the globe through an "industrious bevy of professional enablers in private banking, legal, accounting and investment industries.

"The lost tax revenues implied by our estimates is huge. It is large enough to make a significant difference to the finances of many countries.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18944097

Do you find this shocking or just plain normal?

[Jim Gillum]

The people that complain are the people that would do the same thing....(If they could)

If they are smart enough to make and smart enough to hide it... great....

Most governments would piss it away on turkeys.....maybe a palace or two....))

[Brave7]

Originally Posted by Jim Gillum

The people that complain are the people that would do the same thing....(If they could)

If they are smart enough to make and smart enough to hide it... great....

Most governments would piss it away on turkeys.....maybe a palace or two....))

In a sense I agree with you Jim but in another sense I found disgusting that the regular people are the one to pay.

Is it moral to let the rich hide their money when we all know that average Americans struggle in this insane economy?


Here are a couple of articles about that:

Report: 26 U.S. Companies Not Paying Federal Income Tax
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/repor...ry?id=16111671

Over Two-Thirds Of Corporations Pay No Federal Corporate Income Tax
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1196875.html

[Jim Gillum]

Ah...but the capitalist system.....made this country great...

Now our government wants to take it away and distribute the wealth....
To buy votes???

Once upon a time we used to work to accumulate wealth...which the smart ones hid...

Now the game is gimme' what you worked for because_________
Fill the excuse.....IMO...

[Brave7]

Originally Posted by Jim Gillum

Ah...but the capitalist system.....made this country great...

Now our government wants to take it away and distribute the wealth....
To buy votes???

Once upon a time we used to work to accumulate wealth...which the smart ones hid...

Now the game is gimme' what you worked for because_________
Fill the excuse.....IMO...

I think today we aren't in a traditional capitalism system, but more in Anarcho-capitalism, Crony capitalism, and Corporate capitalism.

Basically it is a Plutocracy.

[Brave7]

Banks, Global Elite Confirmed to Hold $32 Trillion in Offshore Accounts

Major banks and the financial global elite are now confirmed to have as much as $32 trillion in hidden assets stashed away in offshore accounts that are subject to little or no taxation. As a result, around $280 billion is estimated to be lost in tax revenues. In other words, the multi-trillion dollar banks and elite families are avoiding any taxation while forcing United States citizens to foot the bill. Amazingly, the $32 trillion stashed away represents the overall GDP of the United States and Japan combined.

In order to reach the monetary figure, which many are calling quite conservative, economist James Henry commissioned was by the Tax Justice Network — a group that seeks to bring tax evasion to light. Even the Tax Justice Network was quite shocked by the outcome, with spokesperson John Christensen saying he was ultimately startled by the “scale” of the numbers. What’s more concerning than the numbers, however, is the entities behind them. The report revealed that major banks such as Bank of America and Citigroup were among the many major corporations and banking organizations to hide their assets in offshore tax havens.

http://naturalsociety.com/banks-glob...hore-accounts/

[txshellie]

If all the money is hidden, how do they really know it's 32 trillion?

You know.... I care more about the fact that 50%-ish of Americans don't pay anything in taxes - and a growing percentage get money back after they don't contribute at all during the year.

That's a ponzi scheme waiting to collapse.

The amount of taxes they don't pay - even at our current lowest 10% level, which you have to agree, isn't that much compared to my over 40% when you factor in self employment tax - is much greater than taxes owed on a theoretical 32 trillion.

I really just don't care about the tiny infinitesimal super small percentage of people who are hiding their money.

I kinda figure that somewhere they are spending it and creating jobs.

[Zap]

Originally Posted by txshellie

If all the money is hidden, how do they really know it's 32 trillion?

You know.... I care more about the fact that 50%-ish of Americans don't pay anything in taxes - and a growing percentage get money back after they don't contribute at all during the year.

That's a ponzi scheme waiting to collapse.

The mega rich, who are hiding income and dodging taxes are included in that group.

Originally Posted by txshellie

The amount of taxes they don't pay - even at our current lowest 10% level, which you have to agree, isn't that much compared to my over 40% when you factor in self employment tax - is much greater than taxes owed on a theoretical 32 trillion.

Is it? Do you have a source for that? I would think it would be interesting, and perhaps enlightening so see just how much tax money is not collected from those who use loopholes to avoid paying taxes and compare that to the amount being given to those who don't pay because they don't "make enough".

Originally Posted by txshellie

I really just don't care about the tiny infinitesimal super small percentage of people who are hiding their money.

Are we sure that it's really an infinitesimal amount?

Originally Posted by txshellie

I kinda figure that somewhere they are spending it and creating jobs.

Yeah... in China.

[Brave7]

Originally Posted by txshellie

If all the money is hidden, how do they really know it's 32 trillion?

I guess that the money is in banks overseas

You know.... I care more about the fact that 50%-ish of Americans don't pay anything in taxes - and a growing percentage get money back after they don't contribute at all during the year.

I believe that all Americans pay taxes one way or another, if you take the sale tax for example it is difficult to escape to pay that, and it is well known that the VAT taxes are the most unjust tax without regards for the people incomes.

That's a ponzi scheme waiting to collapse.

I completly agree with you

The amount of taxes they don't pay - even at our current lowest 10% level, which you have to agree, isn't that much compared to my over 40% when you factor in self employment tax - is much greater than taxes owed on a theoretical 32 trillion.

I am not going to post articles on this subject for you from www.huffingtonpost.com in case it will be too much bias

What The Top U.S. Companies Pay In Taxes
http://www.forbes.com/2011/04/13/ge-...ate-taxes.html

I kinda figure that somewhere they are spending it and creating jobs.

That's the main problem, they make most of their money in US. Either most of them don't spend it in US or/and it doesn't create any job in US.

[Zap]

There's nothing wrong with tightening tax legislation so that people who don't pay into the system don't get "refunds" as well as making sure that people who earn billions can't avoid giving some of that back to government as the rest of us are expected to do.

To your point, Shellie, you pay 40% of what you make to the government in taxes.
Why shouldn't someone who makes 100 or 1000 times your income have to pay at least some of it in taxes as well?

[txshellie]

Regarding them spending their money.... the rich who live in America aren't buying homes, food, clothing, cars, boats, private schools and eating out in China.

All of these activities create jobs in our economy.

Since 42% of all income taxes are paid by the top 1% then they can't be hiding it all.

(That includes payroll taxes and other taxes that are not only personal taxes paid... http://www.cbo.gov/)

And yes, I know that we can all find massaged data to support our points.

My point is that you can't tax your way out of this problem. We should worry about what is real and not what you can't theoretically lay your hands on. In thinking about this thread, I noted that our deficit spending in this country is 1.6 trillion.... it really is beyond all common sense that 32 trillion is laying around where no one can see it. <I'd be happy to look at this more later...>

The issue is not taxing the rich but curbing spending by an over-reaching government.

<in my humble opinion>

Sorry that I don't have time at this moment to look up more facts and figures ... I have to get to work <smile>. If I come across some soon, I'll share them.

You all are always fun to visit with here in the controversial topic thread.

[txshellie]

Originally Posted by Zap

There's nothing wrong with tightening tax legislation so that people who don't pay into the system don't get "refunds" as well as making sure that people who earn billions can't avoid giving some of that back to government as the rest of us are expected to do.

To your point, Shellie, you pay 40% of what you make to the government in taxes.
Why shouldn't someone who makes 100 or 1000 times your income have to pay at least some of it in taxes as well?

They do pay ... and they pay plenty. When you look at small percentages of huge numbers it all adds up.

This is a neat article on the subject that takes a look at Kim Kardashian and her high income....

http://articles.marketwatch.com/2012...x-actual-taxes

[Zap]

Since the problem is as severe as it is, why can't all possible solutions be looked at?
Why look at expenses OR those who don't pay their fair share?
If you look at both (and others), you'll tackle that defecit (and debt) issue that much sooner.

Coming from a different angle, how do you expect your tax rate of 40% to ever come down to a more reasonable level if spending isn't cut and people earning multiples of that aren't paying anything in taxes?

It's not just an issue of finances. It's an issue of equality. It's an issue of reciprocity.

[txshellie]

I do think that you are correct - we must look at the issues from all different viewpoints.

I guess I'm tired of the skewing from either direction.

I think we need to get back to practical economics.

[Breeze Wood]

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/repor...1#.UA7LXqPHlGQ

William McBride, an economist with the Tax Foundation, said the best source of information would be a company's tax return, which is not public information.

their financial statements and quarterly reports are by law made public - why would a shareholder of one stock not be able to review the companies tax returns ???

Banks, Global Elite Confirmed to Hold $32 Trillion in Offshore Accounts

obviously the final destination of the National Debts - and (unnecessarily) the resultant illiquidity.

Back to the Plantation.

[Brave7]

Originally Posted by txshellie

Regarding them spending their money.... the rich who live in America aren't buying homes, food, clothing, cars, boats, private schools and eating out in China.

All of these activities create jobs in our economy.

Well most of the ultra rich invest in wall street, it doesn't mean that they invest in US bonds, or US stocks. Other rich send their money in the Cayman Island or other fiscal paradise.

We should worry about what is real and not what you can't theoretically lay your hands on. ...it really is beyond all common sense that 32 trillion is laying around where no one can see it. <I'd be happy to look at this more later...>

If you want, you can start by the source of this information at: http://www.taxjustice.net/cms/front_...atart=2&lang=1

and if you don't know yet these people, you can learn who they are at:
http://www.taxjustice.net/cms/front_...p?idcatart=103

The issue is not taxing the rich but curbing spending by an over-reaching government.

I agree with you, why not doing both?

You all are always fun to visit with here in the controversial topic thread.

Thank you lol we are all here to have great time

[txshellie]

Originally Posted by Natural Elements

Well most of the ultra rich invest in wall street, it doesn't mean that they invest in US bonds, or US stocks. Other rich send their money in the Cayman Island or other fiscal paradise.

Y'all are purposely missing my point here.... The rich purchase cars from their local dealerships. They eat at restaurants. They hire staff both at their homes and employees at their business offices in the US whether they outsource manufacturing or not.

They pay $20,000+ a year for school for their kids and they purchase clothing, household items, furnishings, etc etc etc.

They are stimulating the economy.

Yes.... I think we do need to look at the entire situation.

I strongly believe that the fairest possible way to fund the government is with a flat tax for every citizen. Whether you want to do that via the IRS and a flat rate that requires a post card filing form or just eliminate the IRS and implement an 8 or 10% VAT to all purchases, I'm for any method that requires all citizens to have "skin in the game".

[Brave7]

Originally Posted by txshellie

Y'all are purposely missing my point here.... The rich purchase cars from their local dealerships. They eat at restaurants. They hire staff both at their homes and employees at their business offices in the US whether they outsource manufacturing or not.

They pay $20,000+ a year for school for their kids and they purchase clothing, household items, furnishings, etc etc etc.

They are stimulating the economy.

Fair enough, but I want to highlight that rich people begun rich with our help and the shares are unbalanced (Just a question of opinion).

I strongly believe that the fairest possible way to fund the government is with a flat tax for every citizen. Whether you want to do that via the IRS and a flat rate that requires a post card filing form or just eliminate the IRS and implement an 8 or 10% VAT to all purchases, I'm for any method that requires all citizens to have "skin in the game".

A flat tax or flat percentage of VAT is and always will be an unjust tax, because 20% on 1 million dollars has not the same impact as 20% on $1000.

If super wealthy people think that with $1000 per month people should be responsible, they are completly wrong.

I agree with you that the government should reduce the spendings. They can start by stopping the unnecessary wars and overseas base constructions like Ron Paul said.

The idea is giving enough money to the people to have a decent life and then they will be responsible, and yes government taxes will not try to play the equalizer which in fact cost much more money to the wealthy and businesses to play this game.

Think of all the US ressources like crude oil, coal, gold, silver, diamonds, etc after all this is the country of the American People that they don't see a penny in their pocket, and there are no sharings.

Like Plutarch said wisely: "An imbalance between rich and poor is the oldest and most fatal ailment of all republics."