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  #21  
Old 09-10-2012, 08:57 PM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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Originally Posted by Dan Williamson View Post
At least with Communism there is no pseudo-democratic crap that's thrown around with so many 'Democratic' Nations, I am not addled enough in the mind to believe that either of our countries are a true democracy. It doesn't exist any more.
I believe you are kidding. Communism killed more than anything else in the 20th century, nothing to envy. Even if the West is not perfect, I prefer it much more than other communism systems.

Mass killings under Communist regimes

Quote:
In this age, if anyone truly believes that we live in a democracy which is defined by the above and not into loosely-based-around-the-definition communism then they are living in a dream world. I fail to see how the Presidential system which America lives by, or the similar system the UK lives by can be classed as democratic when the power is not equally with the Citizens, but with the head of state etc. We, the people will not hold the power of decisions until we take the power.
You have to study the Russian Nomenklatura to realize that whatever system you are living in have his own ruling class.

It is my own opinion, regular people don't care about the power or ruling power, they want to have a decent life, they want to eat, they want to have a work and make money. When things are turning sour, people are going to be more involved to know what's going on and if they are hurt badly they will protest.
 
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  #22  
Old 09-10-2012, 09:33 PM
Dan Williamson Dan Williamson is offline
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Originally Posted by webcrafters View Post
A true Democracy is untenable
I definitely agree, in this day and age with the mindset that Human Beings now have it is currently untenable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post
I believe you are kidding. Communism killed more than anything else in the 20th century, nothing to envy. Even if the West is not perfect, I prefer it much more than other communism systems.
I'm not kidding - I do believe that we live in a world where we are told that we live in a democracy, however I do not see that democracy is what we have, rather a bastardised subset of democracy which is in ways similar to communism and in others remarkably different from communism.

Also I disagree that Communism has killed anyone, and that is fact. Humans killed people. Again I would support true-communism and not the subsets which we are used to, IE a communist country would have no government, no class-structure etc but then again the media has perverted our fake-democracy as a beacon of good, and communism as a tyrannical evil. If communism has killed so many, then Religion and greed have killed so many more.

Again, you may see things such as the communistic Russia murdering thousands by enslaving them to mine in Siberia or create prisons etc, but this in itself is a bastardisation of true-communism, just as by definition many of our current governments are bastardisations of true-democracy, which in realistic terms neither cannot be achieved, this does not mean that we have to live happily with our fake-democracy and twisted-communism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post
It is my own opinion, regular people don't care about the power or ruling power, they want to have a decent life, they want to eat, they want to have a work and make money. When things are turning sour, people are going to be more involved to know what's going on and if they are hurt badly they will protest.
The sheep don't care, and the governments know that, this is why they don't fear making these crazy laws and such, and this is why they stay together in the idiotic Euro, after all the 'leaders' are personally wealthy, who gives a damn what happens to the countries wealth.

The regular people will hopefully realise before it's too late, but I doubt it.
 
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  #23  
Old 09-11-2012, 07:43 AM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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Originally Posted by Dan Williamson View Post
I'm not kidding - I do believe that we live in a world where we are told that we live in a democracy, however I do not see that democracy is what we have, rather a bastardised subset of democracy which is in ways similar to communism and in others remarkably different from communism.
I agree with you that we don't live in democracy, but rather in an authoritarianism system under the development by influencial international bankers and multi national corporations. They call that the NWO which can be defined like fascism.

Quote:
Also I disagree that Communism has killed anyone, and that is fact. Humans killed people. Again I would support true-communism and not the subsets which we are used to, IE a communist country would have no government, no class-structure etc but then again the media has perverted our fake-democracy as a beacon of good, and communism as a tyrannical evil. If communism has killed so many, then Religion and greed have killed so many more.
According to Karl Marx:

"Communism differs from all previous movements in that it overturns the basis of all earlier relations of production and intercourse, and for the first time consciously treats all natural premises as the creatures of hitherto existing men, strips them of their natural character and subjugates them to the power of the united individuals."
— Karl Marx, The German Ideology, 1845[9]

Communism is similiar to faschism if you take a look closely, they all are coercive.

Quote:
The sheep don't care, and the governments know that, this is why they don't fear making these crazy laws and such, and this is why they stay together in the idiotic Euro, after all the 'leaders' are personally wealthy, who gives a damn what happens to the countries wealth.

The regular people will hopefully realise before it's too late, but I doubt it.
Again I agree with you, they make crazy laws and the most astonishing thing is that they don't repelled the centuries old laws, for example in France we still have some Napoleonian laws active.

More laws, I guess here in US they create 10,000 new laws per years, mean more lawyers to decript them for us regular citizen. It is also a way to complicated the game rule, so they can do whatever they want. A lot of laws are sponsorized by lobbyists from the private sector.

Like you said "leaders" are personally wealthy and they all are, and most of them are really disconnected with their people.
 
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  #24  
Old 09-11-2012, 08:29 AM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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Here is a very good view from Mr Edward Griffin:

[YT]I7Utoxary2Q[/YT]
 
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  #25  
Old 09-11-2012, 12:00 PM
Dan Williamson Dan Williamson is offline
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Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post
According to Karl Marx:

"Communism differs from all previous movements in that it overturns the basis of all earlier relations of production and intercourse, and for the first time consciously treats all natural premises as the creatures of hitherto existing men, strips them of their natural character and subjugates them to the power of the united individuals."
— Karl Marx, The German Ideology, 1845[9]

Communism is similiar to faschism if you take a look closely, they all are coercive.
I would fully agree with you if I were relating to a communistic ideology such as Karl Marx believed in, again I relate to a pre-Marxist communism, something he was undoubtedly inspired by then people such as Marx, or Lenin or whomever used to their pro-modern-communist ideologies.

I aspire to be part of a society that is more like the Hunter-Gatherer society we once inhabited, it's called Primitive Communism because it was just that, simple which is what we need to revert back to to stop the issues of all these idiotic laws and ideologies from taking over. Again, unfortunately realism takes over and we could never revert to such a system, however we could easily adapt many of the principles, and the hierarchical system is one that I would welcome with open arms, that and the abolishment of modern-day-currency.

So unfortunately I do fully support Communism, maybe not the communism you are used to reading about in the media however I don't read into fear-mongering and I prefer to learn about the history behind an ideology not just it's cruel uses in the modern day.
 
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  #26  
Old 09-11-2012, 01:25 PM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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Originally Posted by Dan Williamson View Post
I aspire to be part of a society that is more like the Hunter-Gatherer society we once inhabited, it's called Primitive Communism because it was just that, simple which is what we need to revert back to to stop the issues of all these idiotic laws and ideologies from taking over. Again, unfortunately realism takes over and we could never revert to such a system, however we could easily adapt many of the principles, and the hierarchical system is one that I would welcome with open arms, that and the abolishment of modern-day-currency.
I see. Did you know that the Venus Project is very similar from what you described?

Here is the video documentary:

[YT]5zn8MRKOskw[/YT]
 
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  #27  
Old 09-11-2012, 03:56 PM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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More about the Project Venus by Jacque Fresco

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacque_Fresco
 
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  #28  
Old 09-12-2012, 01:58 PM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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Nigel Farage destroys Barroso's State of the Union

[YT]Vms_vd_yWgY[/YT]
 
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  #29  
Old 09-14-2012, 08:52 AM
bxy bxy is offline
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Natural Elements, You missed a little of the point on money. Money equals power, but only as long as we say it does. Money ceases to have any power the moment we cease to vest our power in it. The true power is in us. We only become powerless without money "ONLY" if we choose to be powerless.

Start at the beginning. Mother Nature provides everything we will ever need for free. Add to that the fact that we were given feet to get us wherever we need to go, hands to gather whatever we need, and a brain to be able to understand all of this. Then to understand that there is nothing man made that man can not make. Man is the power, not money. Money at it's perfection is but a measure of power invested, ones knowledge, talent, and work used to produce value.

The problem with money is greed, and it's spawn, deception. And therein lies the problem with society the collaborations for deception.

As for Communism vs Democracy, in their unspoiled sense both have good points. Communism, everyone is equal, everyone makes the same wage, Doctors, Politicians, Farmers, etc. no one is better than another. But I have to disagree with that as to being fare. Simply people are not equal. We need equality as a base but wealth needs to be a measure of 'honest' achievement; society needs to reward those who work harder, study harder, and contribute more. Such inspires them and others to achieve such high standards. Democracy is thus a better form of society.

Today and throughout history we have seen how all societies are corruptible and exploitable. And worse, the common man will wait until the only way to shake off such corruption is with bloodshed. When all it takes is for the common man to police his government.

***man refers to mankind, not gender.
 
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  #30  
Old 09-14-2012, 10:43 AM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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Originally Posted by bxy View Post
Natural Elements, You missed a little of the point on money. Money equals power, but only as long as we say it does. Money ceases to have any power the moment we cease to vest our power in it. The true power is in us. We only become powerless without money "ONLY" if we choose to be powerless.

Start at the beginning. Mother Nature provides everything we will ever need for free. Add to that the fact that we were given feet to get us wherever we need to go, hands to gather whatever we need, and a brain to be able to understand all of this. Then to understand that there is nothing man made that man can not make. Man is the power, not money. Money at it's perfection is but a measure of power invested, ones knowledge, talent, and work used to produce value.

The problem with money is greed, and it's spawn, deception. And therein lies the problem with society the collaborations for deception.
I understand this philosophy that man is power, not money, but unfortunately in our systems today, we all give away power in money. Not sure if it will be like that in future, because like any system fail at some point.

I complety agree that knowledge, talent, and work used to produce value. There is another point very important to me are social system and social environment values, it doesn't mean necessary socialism.

Quote:
As for Communism vs Democracy, in their unspoiled sense both have good points. Communism, everyone is equal, everyone makes the same wage, Doctors, Politicians, Farmers, etc. no one is better than another. But I have to disagree with that as to being fare. Simply people are not equal. We need equality as a base but wealth needs to be a measure of 'honest' achievement; society needs to reward those who work harder, study harder, and contribute more. Such inspires them and others to achieve such high standards. Democracy is thus a better form of society.
Well, Communism, everyone is equal, everyone makes the same wage, Doctors, Politicians, Farmers, etc is a way of thinking.

My way of thinking is that everybody should be rewarded depending of their individual work for the society. The gap between the top earners and the bottom earners shouldn't be indecently high. It means that the bottom earners should earn much more and the top earners should be pay less.

The benefits of that is that people create individual weath at all levels and it is good for businesses that people can afford to spend, that's good people can pay their bills, that's good because people don't need nany government to help them, etc Everything is balanced and the society function very well.


Quote:
Today and throughout history we have seen how all societies are corruptible and exploitable. And worse, the common man will wait until the only way to shake off such corruption is with bloodshed. When all it takes is for the common man to police his government.

***man refers to mankind, not gender.
Again, when things are unbalanced like today, you have crisis, anger, deficits, crimes, etc The society need to create tools that cannot be removed to fight corruption, special interests, and lobbyism just to name a few.
 
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  #31  
Old 09-14-2012, 01:11 PM
Dan Williamson Dan Williamson is offline
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The problem is that whilst we still see being a Doctor or a Fireman or whatever your job is as a job which you need to be monetarily rewarded for is a big part of why our society and economy is screwed, and will continue to be screwed until the currency system we use is abolished.

The Hunter-Gatherer's had it right in this respect.
 
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  #32  
Old 09-14-2012, 02:21 PM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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Originally Posted by Dan Williamson View Post
The problem is that whilst we still see being a Doctor or a Fireman or whatever your job is as a job which you need to be monetarily rewarded for is a big part of why our society and economy is screwed, and will continue to be screwed until the currency system we use is abolished.

The Hunter-Gatherer's had it right in this respect.
Well, it is not really about the money but how the money interact in our society. You can corrupt without money

This essay is pretty interesting:

How to Abolish Money
http://www.forcix.cx/texts/how_to_abolish_money.html
 
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  #33  
Old 09-23-2012, 06:48 PM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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Former ECB Chief Economist Says ECB Is In Panic, As Czech President Warns The End Of Democracy Is Imminent

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If anyone thought the bad blood between Germany and the rest of the insolvent proletariat, aka the part of the Eurozone which is out of money (most of it), and which has been now confirmed will be supporting Obama (one wonders what the quid for that particular quo is, although we are certain we will find out as soon as December), complete collapse of the Greek neo-vassal state of the globalist agenda notwithstanding, had gone away, here comes former ECB chief economist Juergen Stark to dispel such illusions. In an interview with Austrian Die Presse, the former banker said what everyone without a PhD understands quite well: "The break came in 2010. Until then everything went well..."Then the ECB began to take on a new role, to fall into panic.... Together with other central banks, the ECB is flooding the market, posing the question not only about how the ECB will get its money back, but also how the excess liquidity created can be absorbed globally. "It can't be solved by pressing a button. If the global economy stabilises, the potential for inflation has grown enormously... It gave in to outside pressure ... pressure from outside Europe" Why, whichever bank headquartered at 200 West, NY, NY might he be referring to?

From Telegraph:

He added that "panic" about the eurozone breaking up was "nonsense" but that the only way to end the crisis was for member states to bring down their debts and implement structural reforms to boost economic growth.



"Governments have recognised that returning to budgetary discipline is indispensable. Markets focus much more on whether states will be able to service their debts in five years' time," he said.



Mr Stark quit in late 2011, following in the footsteps of former Bundesbank head Axel Weber, who stepped down earlier in the year from Germany's central bank because of unease about the ECB's policies.



Mr Weber's successor Jens Weidmann was the only member of the ECB's policy-setting governing council to vote against the bank's new programme earlier this month.



"Weidmann's arguments ... should not be made light of," Mr Stark told Die Presse. "The way in which his position has been publicly commented upon by the ECB leadership has crossed the line of fairness."

And speaking of continuing takeover of the world by a few not so good banks, a loud warning that the advent of globalist influences (i.e., bankers) is taking over Europe and that the "destruction of Europe's democracy is in its final phase" comes not from some European (or American... or Zimbabwean) fringe blog, but from the 71 year old president of the Czech Republic, someone who certainly knows about the difference between communism and democracy, Vaclav Klaus. In an interview with The Sunday Telegraph, "Václav Klaus warns that "two-faced" politicians, including the Conservatives, have opened the door to an EU superstate by giving up on democracy, in a flight from accountability and responsibility to their voters. "We need to think about how to restore our statehood and our sovereignty. That is impossible in a federation. The EU should move in an opposite direction," he said."
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-0...moracy-imminen

Do you think Democracy will end in Europe?
 
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  #34  
Old 09-29-2012, 09:14 AM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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As Popular Opposition Grows: Austerity Budgets imposed across Europe

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The French, Spanish and Greek governments all announced multibillion-euro austerity plans yesterday in the face of massive popular opposition.

The French budget presented by the Socialist Party (PS) government of President François Hollande is the harshest since the austerity budgets of the early 1980s under PS President François Mitterrand. It calls for €30 billion (US$38.6 billion) in deficit cuts, including €20 billion in tax increases and €10 billion in spending cuts.

The Spanish budget calls for €13.4 billion in spending cuts in the fourth major package of austerity measures passed this year following the election of the conservative Popular Party (PP) last November. The ministries whose budgets will be most severely cut include Agriculture, Industry and Education.

Greece’s coalition government—which includes the right-wing New Democracy (ND), the social democratic PASOK, and the Democratic Left (DIMAR)—announced that it will unveil a plan Monday for €11.5 billion in spending cuts. Plans for these cuts were first announced in July, but the government initially failed to reach an agreement on how to distribute them.

In each country, the new austerity measures are being pushed through in defiance of public opinion. On Wednesday, millions of workers throughout Greece walked off the job and hundreds of thousands protested in a one-day national strike. On Tuesday, tens of thousands of protesters opposed to the cuts marched to the parliament in Madrid and were brutally attacked by riot police.

In France, Hollande’s popularity ratings have fallen to 43 percent as job losses and austerity measures antagonize voters who elected him in May.

These events demonstrate the impossibility of fighting social austerity in Europe by supporting the bourgeois “left” parties, the European Union (EU), or European capitalism. In a matter of months, the promises made by the official parties have proven worthless.

Hollande cynically promised that “austerity is not an unavoidable destiny.” The Greek coalition government received the tacit support of the bourgeois “left” SYRIZA party, which ran against it ostensibly on an anti-austerity platform, but then pledged to be a “responsible” opposition that would not call strikes and would continue to support the European Union.

As for the PP—elected on the basis of mass hostility to the austerity policies of the previous social democratic Spanish Socialist Workers Party (PSOE) government—its pretense that it would not pursue Greek-style austerity in exchange for an EU bailout of its banks is fast evaporating.

The PP’s cuts to pensions and social spending and its attacks on labor rights are the most severe since the collapse of the fascist Franco dictatorship. Reductions in national state spending of €16.5 billion, €27 billion and €65 billion passed in January, April and July—combined with deep cuts in regional government spending—are sinking Spain’s economy.

One quarter of Spanish workers and 52.9 percent of Spanish youth are unemployed, and despite pledges for bank bailouts the economy is contracting. The International Monetary Fund anticipates a 1.2 percent contraction of Spain’s economy, though the government’s cuts are based on apparently overoptimistic projections of a 0.5 percent contraction.

Spain now pays more to service its debt than it spends on unemployment benefits or the budgets of its national ministries. Since the global economic crisis began in 2008, its public debt has more than doubled, jumping from 35.5 percent to 75.9 percent of gross domestic product (GDP), and the interest rate it pays on its debt has surged as a result of speculation against Spanish bonds by the banks and finance houses.

Spain’s banks are poised to request another €60 billion bailout as the Spanish real estate collapse continues to undermine their balance sheets.

The effect of such policies is most clearly seen in Greece, whose economy is now projected to plunge by 7 percent this year, instead of the previously projected 4.7 percent. Since the Greek debt crisis began in 2009, its economy has contracted by roughly one quarter.

Der Spiegel reported that, due to this continuing collapse, EU authorities expect Greece’s budget shortfall to reach €20 billion. They will then demand more cuts in Greece beyond the €11.5 billion Athens is currently proposing. As laid out in July, these include €5 billion in cuts to the Labor Ministry budget (mainly to pensions) and attacks on Greece’s devastated public hospitals.

These massive cuts—the corresponding amounts would be $802 billion in the United States, £82 billion in Britain and €136 billion in Germany—will ravage a society in which those workers who have managed to keep their jobs have already seen wage cuts of 30-50 percent.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/as-popu...across-europe/

and

French government unveils tax-and-slash 2013 budget
http://www.france24.com/en/20120928-...sion-austerity

Astonishing that it is the same story over and over again that people need to pay the bills of bad policies and political malpractice. The funny thing is that there will be never austerity for governments.
 
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  #35  
Old 09-30-2012, 08:44 AM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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Thousands march in Paris against austerity

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Thousands of demonstrators are marching peacefully in Paris to denounce austerity measures in Europe that have sparked violent protests in other EU countries struggling to avert fiscal crises.

The march organized largely by the "Left Front" party and the Communists comes ahead of the French parliament's debate this week on a European fiscal treaty.

The treaty would set up the European Stability Mechanism bailout fund that European leaders hope will help calm a debt crisis that threatens the euro zone and the global economy.

The main conservative opposition party and most of President Francois Hollande's Socialist Party back the treaty. But it has splintered the French left: Far-left parties, the Greens and some dissident Socialists oppose it.

Austerity has fanned recent violence in places like Spain and Greece.
http://www.beaumontenterprise.com/ne...ty-3906624.php
 
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  #36  
Old 09-30-2012, 08:52 AM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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Portugal rallies against spending cuts

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Thousands of Portuguese have marched through Lisbon to voice their anger at the government’s austerity policies.

The protest was organised by one of the country’s major unions.

It opposes the spending cuts and tax hikes demanded by Portugal’s international lenders, the EU, the IMF and the European Central Bank.

The measures form part of a 78-billion-euro bailout.

The head of the CGTP union, Armenios Carlos, said he was against “the unlimited sacrifices that the Portuguese people are being asked to make”.

Organisers said one hundred thousand people took part in the rally, which descended on Lisbon’s Commerce Square.

However, the protest was smaller than nationwide marches two weeks ago.

Half a million people demonstrated against a tax hike that forced the government into an embarrassing U-turn.
http://www.euronews.com/2012/09/29/p...spending-cuts/
 
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  #37  
Old 09-30-2012, 08:55 AM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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German protesters call for more taxes on the rich

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Thousands of people tooks to the streets of Germany on Saturday to call for new taxes on the rich and a levy on financial transactions.

Organisers said 40,000 people took part in rallies in as many as 40 cities.

In Frankfurt Protesters marched on the European Central Bank, calling for a greater redistribution of wealth.

Frank Bsirske, the chairman of the ver.di union, said ordinary workers should not bear the burden of Germany’s debt.

“Where does this debt come from? It comes from the bank bailouts during the financial crisis and a tax system that favours the wealthy, the biggest fortunes,” he said.

They are also demanding new property taxes and a bigger effort by the German state to fight tax evasion.
http://www.euronews.com/2012/09/29/g...s-on-the-rich/
 
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  #38  
Old 09-30-2012, 08:58 AM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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Italian unions rally against Monti’s spending cuts

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As many as 30,000 members of Italy’s two largest unions marched through Rome on Friday to protest against government spending cuts.

The demonstration by mainly public sector workers was aimed Prime Minister Mario Monti’s austerity policies.

UIL union member Bartolomeo Perna hit out at Monti’s planned cuts, slamming the government as “being made up only of professors.”

“They make the cuts in one direction only, without really discovering where the real cuts are taking place,” he said.

Monti, a former economics professor and EU commissioner, has pushed through a series of measures to boost competitiveness and improve productivity.

They include reforming Italy’s welfare system, as well as loosening labour laws to make it easier for companies to hire and fire.

But unions argue the cuts are deepening the recession. The jobless rate stands at 10.7 percent, an eight-year high.
http://www.euronews.com/2012/09/28/i...spending-cuts/
 
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  #39  
Old 10-01-2012, 07:49 AM
Dan Williamson Dan Williamson is offline
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Wouldn't surprise me if Civil war was quite close.
 
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  #40  
Old 10-01-2012, 08:05 AM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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Originally Posted by Dan Williamson View Post
Wouldn't surprise me if Civil war was quite close.
It is going to be ugly in Europe soon. My parents told me that in France they are targetting all the population to put higher taxes. I am surprise that President Hollande did that, because he is graduated from the "Haute etudes commercial aka HEC" translated by the top business school in France, he shouldn't make this kind of mistake.

Like many French said, we are going straight in the wall, because you don't tax in a middle of an economic crisis.

Besides that the majority of Europeens refuse this EU, at least this one where we all lose our sovereignty.
 
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