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  #1  
Old 09-04-2012, 07:55 AM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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Indications That Europe Has Become An Economic Black Hole

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Summer vacation is over and things are about to get very interesting in Europe. Most Americans don't realize this, but much of Europe shuts down for the entire month of August. I wish we had something similar in the United States. But now millions of Europeans are returning from their extended family vacations and the fun is about to begin. During August economic conditions continued to degenerate in Europe, but I figured that it wouldn't be until after August that the European debt crisis would take center stage once again. And as I wrote about last week, if there is going to be a financial panic, it typically happens in the fall. The stock market has seen quite a nice rally over the summer, and many investors are nervous that we could see a significant "correction" very soon. The month of September has been the absolute worst month for stock performance over the past 50 years, and it has also been the absolute worst month for stock performance over the past 100 years as well. Of course that does not guarantee that anything is going to happen this year. But things in Europe continue to get worse. Unemployment rates are spiking, manufacturing activity is slowing down, housing prices are crashing and major financial institutions are failing. What is happening in Europe right now appears to be an even worse version of what happened to the United States back in 2008.

But most Americans aren't too concerned about what is happening in Europe.

In fact, most Americans don't believe that a European financial collapse would be much of a problem for us.

Well, just remember what happened back in 2008. When the U.S. financial system started coming apart at the seams it sparked a devastating worldwide recession which was felt in every corner of the globe.

If the European financial system implodes, the consequences could be even worse.

Why?

Europe has a larger population than the United States does.

Europe has a larger economy than the United States does.

Europe has a much, much larger banking system than the United States does.

If Europe experiences a financial collapse, the entire globe will feel the pain.

And considering how weak the U.S. economy already is, it would not take much to push us over the edge.

What is going on in Europe right now is a very, very big deal and people need to pay attention.
http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/a...global-economy

Do you think that Greece, Spain, Italy and France are experiencing right now is going to hit us soon?
 
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  #2  
Old 09-04-2012, 12:08 PM
bxy bxy is offline
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Well if you believe in the banking conspiracy, you might remember a little treaty signed back around WW2, it was meant to forestall run away inflation and the devaluation of any nations monies. Simply the stronger countries invest in the weaker countries to bring them back up. The US of course is part of this. So today the big bankers would have to break all the countries simultaneously.

Are there big bankers that are trying, I have no doubt. But there is typically a good guy in every mix too.

But Europe suffers from the same problems as the US. Goods being sold that undermine the value of labor. Greedy Oil Co's, and unscrupulous Bankers.

It isn't a conspiracy, but it is conspiracies, and too many of them against normal people at the moment.

The world is too free, and we are all too lax to keep that freedom
 
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  #3  
Old 09-04-2012, 05:31 PM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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Conspiracies always existed, exist, and will exist, the history is full of conspiracies.

The problem is that regular people will always take the heat and injustices are plenty in our societies.

IMO, we are in a kind of modern feudalism where never see the real masters, but you can feel that they are in charge.

At our level we cannot do much, it could be here in US or in Europe the mechanisms are almost identical, it is the golden rule.

In Europe, you are going to see a lot of street manifestations because people don't want to accept to pay the bills of the establishment mistakes, reckless spending, etc

Like they say in France: "responsible but not guilty"

The huge problem is notbody is going to be accountable for the way they spend our tax money.
 
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Old 09-05-2012, 06:12 AM
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Indications that Europe has become a black hole?

Bulgaria.

They've successfully completed the steps to become the next nation to enter the Euro and have now decided to put their own entrance on hold and wait for the Euro to shape up.

Hey Eurozone... Bulgaria no longer wants to join your club. What does that tell you?
 
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Old 09-05-2012, 07:43 AM
dWhite dWhite is offline
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Originally Posted by Zap View Post
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What do you think would happen if a member state(s) of the European Union suddenly decided to withdraw their membership?
 
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  #6  
Old 09-05-2012, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by dWhite View Post
What do you think would happen if a member state(s) of the European Union suddenly decided to withdraw their membership?
Sooner or later (probably sooner than later), that's going to happen.

Either Greece and/or Spain and/or Italy will get the boot because they can't afford to stay in the Euro, or Germany and/or Netherlands will voluntarily leave the Euro because they can't afford to carry the weaker states.
 
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  #7  
Old 09-05-2012, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Abraham Lincoln

"A house divided against itself cannot stand."

A house divided against itself cannot stand. I believe this government cannot endure, permanently, half slave and half free. I do not expect the Union to be dissolved — I do not expect the house to fall — but I do expect it will cease to be divided. It will become all one thing or all the other. Either the opponents of slavery will arrest the further spread of it, and place it where the public mind shall rest in the belief that it is in the course of ultimate extinction; or its advocates will push it forward, till it shall become alike lawful in all the States, old as well as new — North as well as South.

Leadership can play a pivotal role in shaping future events - Europa has historically placed individual interests above an inner strength of Unity for its Continent, preferring rather war and dissolution ... in contrast to the entirely different approach so far successful in the US.
 
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  #8  
Old 09-05-2012, 09:58 AM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dWhite View Post
What do you think would happen if a member state(s) of the European Union suddenly decided to withdraw their membership?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zap View Post
Sooner or later (probably sooner than later), that's going to happen.

Either Greece and/or Spain and/or Italy will get the boot because they can't afford to stay in the Euro, or Germany and/or Netherlands will voluntarily leave the Euro because they can't afford to carry the weaker states.
In Spain the collapse is pretty advanced.

Breakdown: Three Tons of Food Looted From Grocery Stores In Spain As Millions Struggle
http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-new...uggle_09052012
 
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Old 09-05-2012, 12:29 PM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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Eurozone demands six-day week for Greece

Government in Athens under pressure to introduce a six-day working week as part of the terms for a second bailout

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Greece's eurozone creditors are demanding that the government in Athens introduce a six-day working week as part of the stiff terms for the country's second bailout.

The demand is contained in a leaked letter from the "troika" of the country's lenders, the European commission, European Central Bank, and International Monetary Fund. In the letter, the officials policing Greece's compliance with the austerity package imposed in return for the bailout insist on radical labour market reforms, from minimum wages to overtime limits to flexible working hours, that are likely to worsen the standoff between the government and organised labour in Greece.

After a long delay caused by months of political paralysis in Greece, the troika inspectors return to Athens this week to scrutinise Greek observance of its bailout terms. They are expected to deliver a verdict next month that will determine whether Greece is ultimately allowed to remain in the single currency.

The letter, sent last week to the Greek finance and labour ministries, orders the government to extend the working week into the weekend.

"Measure: increase flexibility of work schedules: increase the number of maximum workdays to six days per week for all sectors.

"Increase flexibility of work schedules; set the minimum daily rest to 11 hours; delink the working hours of employees from the opening hours of the establishment; eliminate restrictions on minimum/maximum time between morning and afternoon shifts; allow the consecutive two-week leave to be taken anytime during the year in seasonal sectors."

The instructions focus on labour market reforms, calling for the national labour inspectorate to be radically reformed and put under European supervision.

The letter reveals the detail of eurozone intrusion into a national system and culture of work widely seen outside Greece as dysfunctional.

There should be a permanent "single-rate statutory minimum wage", seen as an incentive for getting people back to work in a country where unemployment has soared to around 30%.

"Unemployment is too high, and policies are needed to prevent it from becoming structural," the letter says.

The letter also calls for non-wage labour costs to be lowered, employers' welfare contributions to be cut, and deregulation of the labour market.

There is growing conviction in Berlin and Brussels that the government of Antonis Samaras in Athens has fallen well behind in the economic and fiscal reform programmes imposed in return for two bailouts in the past two years.

The Greek government is struggling to come up with persuasive policies to enact spending cuts of a further €11.6 bn, which were to have been implemented in June, to secure the next bailout tranche of more than €30bn due next month.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...ay-week-greece
 
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  #10  
Old 09-06-2012, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post
Eurozone demands six-day week for Greece

Government in Athens under pressure to introduce a six-day working week as part of the terms for a second bailout
...and the bankers crack their whips. GET BACK TO WORK!

If Greece went to the seven day work week instead of six days, they could pay their debt so much quicker.
 
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  #11  
Old 09-06-2012, 07:59 AM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zap View Post
...and the bankers crack their whips. GET BACK TO WORK!

If Greece went to the seven day work week instead of six days, they could pay their debt so much quicker.
It is interesting on how far they are going to make people bend to their dictates.

I am not sure that it is going to fly very far. Remember what Nigel Farage said, Greece, Spain, and Italy and the whole thing collapse.
 
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  #12  
Old 09-06-2012, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
http://my.earthlink.net/article/int?...a-f79f323d6b6e

ECB unveils bond-buying program to fight crisis

FRANKFURT, Germany (AP) — European Central Bank President Mario Draghi has unveiled a long-awaited program to buy up bonds and help bring down the borrowing costs of Europe's struggling governments.

The plan envisions no set limit on the amount of bonds the ECB could buy, making the program "a fully effective backstop" against a further worsening of the debt crisis in the 17 countries that use the euro.

... and help bring down the borrowing costs of Europe's struggling governments.


Strengthening the EU and the Euro should be the Continents top priority ... finally they are beginning to wake up.
 
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  #13  
Old 09-06-2012, 11:07 AM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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Originally Posted by Breeze Wood View Post
Strengthening the EU and the Euro should be the Continents top priority ... finally they are beginning to wake up.
Yeah right, by strengthening the EU, you meant strengthening the ECB by giving them full control of all Europeen countries and loss of their sovereignty.


Quote:
The European Central Bank would be given sweeping authority over all 6,000 eurozone banks under a plan being drawn up by the European Commission
[YT]jODdBUAzYWw[/YT]
 
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  #14  
Old 09-06-2012, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post
Yeah right, by strengthening the EU, you meant strengthening the ECB by giving them full control of all Europeen countries and loss of their sovereignty.
... and loss of their sovereignty.


That's right Natural, the Continent is what matters more than its individual constituencies.
 
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  #15  
Old 09-06-2012, 01:59 PM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Breeze Wood View Post
... and loss of their sovereignty.


That's right Natural, the Continent is what matters more than its individual constituencies.
In this case it is a tentative to re-install what many countries fought for: Communism

NO THANKS
 
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  #16  
Old 09-06-2012, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post
In this case it is a tentative to re-install what many countries fought for: Communism

NO THANKS

Quote:
Article [X.]

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

it is not without precedent - as the above, clearly "unambiguous" Article is a primary example.

Room for both sides of the coin to make their case.
 
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  #17  
Old 09-10-2012, 10:59 AM
bxy bxy is offline
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Natural Elements, Conspiracies do not only exist, I would argue that they are the backbone of all societies, indeed I consider societies conflicts of conspiracies. And yes the rest are followers, however "responsible but not guilty" I like that, but not completely true, for sheep are guilty of being complacent, as freedom is never freely given. However a conspiracy is but a theory until it is proven fact; and as a theory it takes belief to consider it, or to begin to prove it.

The problems of the current economy for the rich is every penny we scrape up we give to them. The oil barons are raping us, yet we continue to buy fuel from them, instead of opening the hood of our car, getting our fingers a little dirty, taxing our minds, and changing our car's fuel source to one of the many, many, many, alternative fuel sources that are all around us. And the same can be said of the energies that run our homes. Change away from the monopolies, change away from the rich.

Our second largest problem on a world scale is money. That solution is the same as it has always been, said best by one very great rebel, indeed a rebel so great that we mark our calendar still today by his life, but have yet to have ever been willing to listen to him. "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's" in other words, the power in money is the power we give it. When we vest that power with others, we give them our power, ie banks. And money ceases to have any power the moment we cease to use it. And governments do use that power in the money to control us, as do the wealthy, as do the banks.
 
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Old 09-10-2012, 12:20 PM
Franc Tireur Franc Tireur is offline
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Originally Posted by bxy View Post
Natural Elements, Conspiracies do not only exist, I would argue that they are the backbone of all societies, indeed I consider societies conflicts of conspiracies. And yes the rest are followers, however "responsible but not guilty" I like that, but not completely true, for sheep are guilty of being complacent, as freedom is never freely given. However a conspiracy is but a theory until it is proven fact; and as a theory it takes belief to consider it, or to begin to prove it.

The problems of the current economy for the rich is every penny we scrape up we give to them. The oil barons are raping us, yet we continue to buy fuel from them, instead of opening the hood of our car, getting our fingers a little dirty, taxing our minds, and changing our car's fuel source to one of the many, many, many, alternative fuel sources that are all around us. And the same can be said of the energies that run our homes. Change away from the monopolies, change away from the rich.

Our second largest problem on a world scale is money. That solution is the same as it has always been, said best by one very great rebel, indeed a rebel so great that we mark our calendar still today by his life, but have yet to have ever been willing to listen to him. "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's" in other words, the power in money is the power we give it. When we vest that power with others, we give them our power, ie banks. And money ceases to have any power the moment we cease to use it. And governments do use that power in the money to control us, as do the wealthy, as do the banks.
I agree with you, the problem is money and money is power, and if you are out of luck and don't have money, you do not have power.

As far as the energies, many people tried successfully to get out of the grid because they could afford it, you need to invest a lot of money to have more freedom and they know it.
 
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  #19  
Old 09-10-2012, 07:15 PM
Dan Williamson Dan Williamson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post
In this case it is a tentative to re-install what many countries fought for: Communism

NO THANKS
At least with Communism there is no pseudo-democratic crap that's thrown around with so many 'Democratic' Nations, I am not addled enough in the mind to believe that either of our countries are a true democracy. It doesn't exist any more.

Quote:
Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives.
In this age, if anyone truly believes that we live in a democracy which is defined by the above and not into loosely-based-around-the-definition communism then they are living in a dream world. I fail to see how the Presidential system which America lives by, or the similar system the UK lives by can be classed as democratic when the power is not equally with the Citizens, but with the head of state etc. We, the people will not hold the power of decisions until we take the power.
 
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Old 09-10-2012, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Williamson View Post
At least with Communism there is no pseudo-democratic crap that's thrown around with so many 'Democratic' Nations, I am not addled enough in the mind to believe that either of our countries are a true democracy. It doesn't exist any more.



In this age, if anyone truly believes that we live in a democracy which is defined by the above and not into loosely-based-around-the-definition communism then they are living in a dream world. I fail to see how the Presidential system which America lives by, or the similar system the UK lives by can be classed as democratic when the power is not equally with the Citizens, but with the head of state etc. We, the people will not hold the power of decisions until we take the power.
A true Democracy is untenable, if nothing else has been more profoundly announced over the last decade let us agree that this is a foremost lesson we can walk away knowing. Though my life has been a short 4+ decades I know of no other time that as a people those within this country have been so divided. Even during the times of growth that transpired throughout the last century, was there a division that encompassed such a multitude of different people? Not united behind single movements, not united behind a single cry for a way of life be it freedom, peace, or equality, but a quagmire of different messages stemming from the self righteous, the self serving, and the narrow minded. Not fighting for a way of the people, but a way of self.
Quote:
... is limited to the public good of the society. It is a power that hath no other end but preservation, and therefore can never have a right to destroy, enslave, or designedly to impoverish the subjects... To this end it is that men give up all their natural power to the society they enter into, and the community put the legislative power into such hands as they think fit, with this trust, that they shall be governed by declared laws, or else their peace, quiet, and property will still be at the same uncertainty as it was in the state of Nature
One of the many different Philosophers our founding was based upon, John Locke....

At a time the individual states were tasked with choosing a representative to represent the interests and well being of those that lived within that state in the format of a centralized federal government. Those who were chosen by the citizens of the different areas of the state were voted upon by those citizens to represent their interests on the level of the state, then those representatives elected those to represent the state. This was changed to a vote by the people of the represented area of the state to choose not only those that served at the level of that same state, but also served in a Federal level. Was this a move away from the power of the state, or a move toward the power of the people?

Beyond the above, a Republic is a Democratic based government that is represented by those who have been chosen to represent the people who have elected them to do so. At no time has our society been a truly based democracy, and this happened by design in order to create a more sustainable and functional system. Even as a republic though, the future and stability still lies not with just those that serve as the elected, but by those that support them, and that select them for those positions as representatives of the people, by the people, and for the people.

Last edited by TechWizard; 09-10-2012 at 07:47 PM. Reason: corrected context
 
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