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Old 11-08-2012, 05:39 PM
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I challenge you to watch this documentary

For a documentary it is really well done. Available for streaming on Netflix. It is about 90 minutes long.

The World without US

US being the US as a military power outside out borders. Listen to presidential candidate Turner and explore the implications of the implementation of those polices.
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Old 11-08-2012, 08:30 PM
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Like Vegetius said "Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" Which translate from Latin to English "if you want peace, prepare for war".

Unfortunately the Europeen politicians are more academic than military and often slashed their military budgets. Many Europeens considere that having a decent Army force isn't necessary because they have nuclear weapons.

The problem is that Europe isn't fully builded and are incompetent to solutionate any conflicts alone. Look what's happen, they don't even know how to run their own economy.

Vive les USA
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:01 PM
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I'm watching it now while I do late night photo work.

I love that we are in Iraq... "for the oil"

So, Iraq's major oil contracts are with the French, the Chinese and Malasia.

Thanks. Thanks, a lot.

The US is too polite to clear it's throat and say... "Excuse me...."

I just really don't understand why we don't drill our own oil. I've read that there is as much oil off the gulf as there is oil in the middle east.

I think that many countries have received the benefits of the US military that they really do have no concept of what it would be like without the US. It wouldn't be the coca cola commercial that they think it would be.
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:58 AM
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Tried to but seems to be for US citizens eyes only. Only the US can use Netflix and can't find it anywhere else.
 
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Old 11-09-2012, 05:24 AM
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Tried to but seems to be for US citizens eyes only. Only the US can use Netflix and can't find it anywhere else.
That's a shame. Knowing you as I think I do I'm really not sure how you would take it. You have a more open mind than you pretend to have. And I mean that as a compliment.
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Old 11-09-2012, 05:28 AM
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So, Iraq's major oil contracts are with the French, the Chinese and Malasia.


I just really don't understand why we don't drill our own oil. I've read that there is as much oil off the gulf as there is oil in the middle east.
Apparently. Of course to be oil is a world market and a shortage in one place causes price increase worldwide. But it did blow me away also.

The second part is up to the administration and this thread is not about the president that was decided a few days ago.
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Old 11-09-2012, 07:19 AM
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Unfortunately the Europeen politicians are more academic than military and often slashed their military budgets. Many Europeens considere that having a decent Army force isn't necessary because they have nuclear weapons.

The problem is that Europe isn't fully builded and are incompetent to solutionate any conflicts alone. Look what's happen, they don't even know how to run their own economy.
Sad but true nowadays - history shows that the Europeans were power back in the day - Swedish kings reigned supreme, the Vikings from the Pagan era were the fiercest in combat and let's not forget the British Empire, invading France every few weeks just to flex the muscle of our pure power (I jest of course) and the Greeks, the cleverest of all and now look at Europe.

However - don't generalise on Europe not having good armies, Finland have one of the greatest armies on the face of the Earth, small in size in comparison to America, China or Russia - yet look at their statistics. The British army isn't too bad, although with the controversies of the MoD and suits they're ruining out soldiers health, benefits and chances at a good life every day.

I haven't seen the documentary, don't know where to watch it bar Netflix US - however, if America hadn't existed as it did in the modern day, another power would have risen up and been so similar, whether it would be Germany, the Japanese, China or Russia who knows.
 
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Old 11-09-2012, 07:53 AM
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I woke up this morning thinking about this film and also thinking about history.

As part of our homeschooling (one son is at home, one son is at public school getting extra help that I can't provide), we are studying ancient history for our history subject and early American history as our reading subject - just worked out that way.

We just finished Ancient Egypt (Jack is 9). That culture has been conquered and we're moving to Greece and then Rome. These cultures also fell into decline. All we get from Greece nowadays is yogurt.... considering the art, philosophy, military, government that they once had, it's amazing to think they passed... the same can be said for the Roman Empire.

I guess the next thing for me to do personally is focus on the why of their decline.... perhaps we can address that here or in a new thread as well.

How does our seemingly unwanted role (at least for those who don't fear murder by gestapo in their sleep) as cop of the world feed into history?

Will we be the saviors of the world or it's dictator?

I feel like the US is trying to get the rest of the world to embrace democracy and like a kid who is being forced to eat broccoli, many are trying to spit it out.

I don't understand why a human being want to spend a life subjugated by their government. Whether overtly or benignly?

I think this ideology is leftover from the days when people lived around a castle and the nobleman who lived in the castle just took care of stuff.

I don't want to be a serf. I think that was part of why people came to the US so long ago.

In the documentary, I do see the allure of, "Let's leave and focus on ourselves"....

I wonder what that would really look like if it happened. I know what this movie proposes... would that really happen? Could it be much worse?

I usually don't ramble on like this and when I do, I delete it. But I stayed up working late and am too tired to filter
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Old 11-09-2012, 07:58 AM
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Sad but true nowadays - history shows that the Europeans were power back in the day - Swedish kings reigned supreme, the Vikings from the Pagan era were the fiercest in combat and let's not forget the British Empire, invading France every few weeks just to flex the muscle of our pure power (I jest of course) and the Greeks, the cleverest of all and now look at Europe.
Man, when I check the whole history between France and Anglo-Saxon kingdom of England, and see where we are at today, we wasted a lot of time to be friends.

I guess this part of history event was one of the infamous. "Norman Invasion of England, (1066) -William the Conqueror, Duke of Normandy and a vassal of the French king, conquered the Anglo-Saxon kingdom of England, and made himself King of England"

http://www.historyguy.com/anglo_french.html
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Old 11-09-2012, 08:50 AM
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Man, when I check the whole history between France and Anglo-Saxon kingdom of England, and see where we are at today, we wasted a lot of time to be friends.

I guess this part of history event was one of the infamous. "Norman Invasion of England, (1066) -William the Conqueror, Duke of Normandy and a vassal of the French king, conquered the Anglo-Saxon kingdom of England, and made himself King of England"

http://www.historyguy.com/anglo_french.html
Damn French!
 
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Old 11-09-2012, 08:51 AM
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Damn French!
LOL
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Old 11-09-2012, 09:17 AM
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I found the film quite though provoking and I have not yet evolved in my thinking (that's the PC way to say changed it).

Until I watched this film I was learning towards retreat and isolationism. Give all the freeloaders what they want and don't raise my taxes to pay for it. And that position is a great evolvement from an essay I wrote 45 years ago where I declared the US had a duty to be the policeman of the world.

I need to think this over some more.
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:33 AM
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I need to think this over some more.
If you think deeply about the involment of US in different parts of the world, I will say that the US is the equalizer, perhaps the most dissuasive high tech military presence which provide peace.

I guess the American people shouldn't pay the burden of this presence and should have a financial support from the countries protected under the American umbrella.

The purpose is stability and peace. In my opinion it is much more difficult to make peace than war. Look into the history on how all wars generate misery , mass murders, hate, etc

How long are we as human understand that wars isn't the solution?
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Old 11-09-2012, 02:04 PM
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That's a shame. Knowing you as I think I do I'm really not sure how you would take it. You have a more open mind than you pretend to have. And I mean that as a compliment.
I probably wouldn't take it very well, but I like to visit both sides of everything I am interested in and put myself in both positions. I do note that no one has mentioned the most populous countries in the world in Asia above though. They have had civilisation for 4000 years.

China changes government next week, a very orderly process indeed. They will oversee their country for ten years without opposition. That means that things get done rather than argued about. No hint of democracy whatsoever. Seems to work for them.

Different strokes for different folks and live and let live as the boring say.
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Old 11-10-2012, 01:36 AM
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Perhaps a very controversial post... Be warned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post
If you think deeply about the involment of US in different parts of the world, I will say that the US is the equalizer, perhaps the most dissuasive high tech military presence which provide peace.
Ahh - to go to the other side however. Not everyone (especially in the East) believe that America is providing peace. They have invading countries such as Iraq, Afghanistan flying banners of peace whilst cutting down the natives and there is always civillian loss in war, this would not scream peace to me were I an Iraqi man at the time.

Sure they may have intentions of peace, however what gives them the right?

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How long are we as human understand that wars isn't the solution?
Until forces such as America understand that not everybody wants the Democracy that America has. America has attempted to enforce Democracy on various countries, and invoke peace within these nations and yet supports Israel as they do what they do in Palestine.

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China changes government next week, a very orderly process indeed. They will oversee their country for ten years without opposition. That means that things get done rather than argued about. No hint of democracy whatsoever. Seems to work for them.

Different strokes for different folks and live and let live as the boring say.
Exactly - democracy does not work for everyone. Even Americas Eastern Allies such as Jordan are not a democracy.
 
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Old 11-10-2012, 07:00 AM
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Perhaps a very controversial post... Be warned.

Ahh - to go to the other side however. Not everyone (especially in the East) believe that America is providing peace. They have invading countries such as Iraq, Afghanistan flying banners of peace whilst cutting down the natives and there is always civillian loss in war, this would not scream peace to me were I an Iraqi man at the time.

Sure they may have intentions of peace, however what gives them the right?
What gives the right of Iraqi to invade Koweit, and have plans to invade Saudi Arabia to get the crude oil? Remember Sadam Hussein was broke after the Irag-Iran war.

Quote:
Until forces such as America understand that not everybody wants the Democracy that America has. America has attempted to enforce Democracy on various countries, and invoke peace within these nations and yet supports Israel as they do what they do in Palestine.
I agree with you that not everybody want the American/Western Democracy style.

Quote:
Exactly - democracy does not work for everyone. Even Americas Eastern Allies such as Jordan are not a democracy.
I think you have to make a difference between protection of national interests (it could be whatever reason to be allies, from history, UN decisions, economic to geostrategic) and puppets supported by our Western countries.
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Old 11-10-2012, 07:48 AM
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I probably wouldn't take it very well, but I like to visit both sides of everything I am interested in and put myself in both positions. I do note that no one has mentioned the most populous countries in the world in Asia above though. They have had civilisation for 4000 years.

China changes government next week, a very orderly process indeed. They will oversee their country for ten years without opposition. That means that things get done rather than argued about. No hint of democracy whatsoever. Seems to work for them.

Different strokes for different folks and live and let live as the boring say.
I know that you are meaning to play devil's advocate. Here is my response to the line of thought:

I'm not sure that all of the jailed dissidents, martyred Christians, women subjected to forced abortions and other victims of the communist regime would agree that it's working very well.

Small sampling of background info:

Human rights report:

http://www.hrw.org/world-report-2012/world-report-2012-china


Gendercide and its after-effects:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...lus-males.html

I know that the US isn't going to storm into China. We're still going to purchase Chinese made goods. Perhaps trade sanctions could affect positive change. But since the economic markets are tied into our relation with China, we're fairly impotent.

I suggest we can't ignore or pretend that communism is a benign choice of government - equally valid to democracy when you see the human results.

I'm sure that there are many Chinese, Cubans, North Koreans, Laosians and Vietnamese citizens and refugees who would agree.

I prefer political debate to the fear that I could be taken to prison tomorrow if I hold a dissenting view to that of the government.
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Old 11-10-2012, 01:30 PM
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I know that you are meaning to play devil's advocate. Here is my response to the line of thought:

I'm not sure that all of the jailed dissidents, martyred Christians, women subjected to forced abortions and other victims of the communist regime would agree that it's working very well.

Small sampling of background info:

Human rights report:

http://www.hrw.org/world-report-2012/world-report-2012-china


Gendercide and its after-effects:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...lus-males.html

I know that the US isn't going to storm into China. We're still going to purchase Chinese made goods. Perhaps trade sanctions could affect positive change. But since the economic markets are tied into our relation with China, we're fairly impotent.

I suggest we can't ignore or pretend that communism is a benign choice of government - equally valid to democracy when you see the human results.

I'm sure that there are many Chinese, Cubans, North Koreans, Laosians and Vietnamese citizens and refugees who would agree.

I prefer political debate to the fear that I could be taken to prison tomorrow if I hold a dissenting view to that of the government.
China has human rights problems, as does Australia, as does the US. Not sure that China would take that well to being told what to do, put yourself in their position.

Don't know anything about any martyred Christians.

Gendercide is the result of having a massive population and the government trying to limit people to one child each. The imbalance is caused by families themselves deciding they want a boy to continue their name rather than a girl. A personal choice for each family. It would be a difficult choice indeed for each individual. The alternative is letting people starve or expanding their country.

Cuba, North Korea are poor as the result of sanctions. Someone else telling them they have to change are making and keeping their people poor by doing so.

The people of Laos are doing well, very poor though. The US could help their economy by picking up the 90 million unexploded landmines they dropped on the country during the American/Vietnam War.

Vietnam is doing well and I shall be visiting in the near future all going well. Reports are that it's a great place to go to.

I don't mind political debate myself, but I know a lot of people who aren't interested. You might look at how many voters turned out in the last US election. Was it 100% of the nation who wanted to cast a vote. And there isn't any country in the world where the people are 100% happy with the government.

Is a dissident a terrorist.
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Old 11-10-2012, 01:53 PM
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Gendercide is the result of having a massive population and the government trying to limit people to one child each. The imbalance is caused by families themselves deciding they want a boy to continue their name rather than a girl. A personal choice for each family. It would be a difficult choice indeed for each individual. The alternative is letting people starve or expanding their country.
If this were true then they'd kill boys and girls equally... not just the girls. Take a quick look at the article I posted. Here is a quote:

The authorities, who have no moral objection to abortion itself, have been known to force women to have abortions in their ninth month of pregnancy to keep to the one-child policy.

I still contend that that's not OK... or just another 'way of going about life'.

Nothing can justify this practice.

Abduction is one of the side effects....

In Kunming I saw another of China's harsh faces. You may have seen pictures of children in cages, or tethered to posts, and gasped at the cruelty. But you did not know the half of it.

Their seemingly brutal parents are in fact trying to prevent their children from being stolen.

Boys are kidnapped by families who want a male heir and do not care where they get him. Girls are taken to be brought up as child brides for cherished, spoiled boys, who will not have to worry about the increasing shortage of girls.

This danger is one that China's censored state prefers not to talk about. When I arranged a meeting with the parents of four abducted children in Kunming, I was advised to speak only to the fathers.


Even though I can do very little personally to help these people, I won't say that there is any excuse for treating people in this fashion no matter what the government says.

I can't say that their way is just as good or equivalent to ours and it's just a choice that they get to make.

I can judge them and I do.

Regarding martyred Christians, a quick search will turn up many reports.

Here's just one. The Voice of the Martyrs reports on how and where Christians are killed for their faith all over the world.

http://www.epm.org/resources/2010/Ma...orture-christ/

We take for granted that we can chose or not chose to believe any way we want to.

So, again, I can't say that communism is just fine and is an equivalently good but different government when compared to democracy.
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Old 11-10-2012, 02:13 PM
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Here's the BBC's take on Christians in China.

An excerpt "The government says 25 million, 18 million Protestants and six million Catholics. Independent estimates all agree this is a vast underestimate. A conservative figure is 60 million. There are already more Chinese at church on a Sunday than in the whole of Europe."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14838749

Obviously Christians live freely in China these days. Australia's percentage of Christians continues to drop. Now down to 66%.

China itself obviously struggles with the one child policy. This paragraph alone demonstrates that the people do discuss openly Government policies.

"Though open debate about the policy has flourished in state media and online, leaders have so far expressed a desire to maintain the status quo. President Hu said last year that China would keep its strict family planning policy to keep the birth rate low and other officials have said that no changes are expected until at least 2015."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...e-child-policy
 
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