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Old 12-06-2012, 10:44 AM
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Fiscal Cliff and Demint Resigns from Office

I thought this was pretty interesting..... I guess he was banging his head against a wall and finally decided he had a headache. I'm sad that his voice won't be in Congress.

It's too bad that he thinks he has to leave congress to become effective.


Only this week DeMint made headlines when he said House Speaker John Boehner's offer for $800 billion of increased tax revenues would "destroy jobs and allow Washington politicians" to swell, not reduce, federal deficits.



http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/demint-resigning-heritage-foundation/2012/12/06/id/466728?s=al&promo_code=11004-1


I think this signals a breakdown among conservatives .... it will be interesting to see how things turn out over the next 3 weeks.

Some have put forth the idea that the Administration is not going to negotiate on any level because the default position - the expiring of the Bush tax cuts - will raise taxes on everyone and the Republicans will take the blame.

Everyone seems to forget that the cuts sliced the lowest tax bracket by 30%.....
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:17 AM
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GOP senator backs tax rate hike on wealthy
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...ike-on-wealthy

A combination of tax rate hike on wealthy and budget cuts (stopping to waste money overseas) perhaps will be the begining in the right direction.
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:21 AM
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Clinton's tax increases on people making more than $250,000 a year tanked the economy so I'm not sure how this is going in the right direction.


http://www.forbes.com/sites/charleskadlec/2012/07/16/the-dangerous-myth-about-the-bill-clinton-tax-increase/


But taxing successful people seems to make half the country happy so I guess we'll go with that and see if history repeats itself.

From the article:

However, with his masterful 1995 flip-flop on taxes, President Clinton took the first step toward a successful campaign for re-election and a shift in policy that produced the economic boom that occurred during his second term.

Welfare reform, which he signed in the summer of 1996, led to a massive reduction in the effective tax rates on the poor by ameliorating the rapid phase out of benefits associated with going to work.
The phased reduction in tariff and non-tariff barriers between the U.S., Mexico and Canada under the North American Free Trade Agreement continued, leading to increased trade.
In 1997, Clinton signed a reduction in the (audible liberal gasp) capital gains tax rate to 20% from 28%.
The 1997 tax cuts also included a phased in increase in the death tax exemption to $1 million from $600,000, and established Roth IRAs and increased the limits for deductible IRAs.
Annual growth in federal spending was kept to below 3%, or $57 billion.
The Clinton Administration also maintained its policy of a strong and stable dollar. Over his entire second term, consumer price inflation averaged only 2.4% a year.
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by txshellie View Post
Clinton's tax increases on people making more than $250,000 a year tanked the economy so I'm not sure how this is going in the right direction.
The actual tax increase is only 4%, come on Txshellie....
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post
The actual tax increase is only 4%, come on Txshellie....
Next time someone wants to reach in your pocket and take out $10,000 ... let me know how fun that feels.

Especially when it's been historically shown to be ineffective.

But hey... it's "just" 4%.... With FICA and self employment taxes the rate is closer to 50% already... hey! What's 55% among friends.
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Old 12-06-2012, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by txshellie View Post
Next time someone wants to reach in your pocket and take out $10,000 ... let me know how fun that feels.

Especially when it's been historically shown to be ineffective.

But hey... it's "just" 4%.... With FICA and self employment taxes the rate is closer to 50% already... hey! What's 55% among friends.
Listen, many young Americans mostly from poor to middle class joint the US Army to protect their country, they risk their life every day, some come back injured and others handicaped.

You are telling me that the wealthy making above $250,000 cannot make the sacrifice of 4% tax rate for their country?

This is disgusting, and I am wondering sometimes in what kind of society we are living in.
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Old 12-06-2012, 12:15 PM
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Listen, many young Americans mostly from poor to middle class joint the US Army to protect their country, they risk their life every day, some come back injured and others handicaped.

You are telling me that the wealthy making above $250,000 cannot make the sacrifice of 4% tax rate for their country?

This is disgusting, and I am wondering sometimes in what kind of society we are living in.
Disgusting?

My father was a 20-year vet. So don't lecture me about military and how I feel about vets. I come from a military family for the last 150 years.

Where is anyone saying that even a penny of this money is going to vets when we are sending $1.5 billion to the muslim brotherhood?

Perhaps our vets should have received that money...

Why don't we instead talk about money going to other foreign countries who hate us... millions of dollars given to special interest groups.... money wasted trying to create industries that are scientifically unsound... let's talk about all the extra money we all pay in energy costs that directly related to poor energy management.....

Let's discuss the zero impact of the stimulus packages that threw money down the toilet.

But if taking $10,000 a year from "rich" people so they can't spend that money and create jobs - even if it's just supporting your local restaurants - when it's been historically shown that raising taxes on the furnace that keeps the economy going is a bad thing all around makes everyone feel better.

Then let's go to it.

Frankly, I think that's reprehensible and short-sighted.
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by txshellie View Post
Disgusting?

My father was a 20-year vet. So don't lecture me about military and how I feel about vets. I come from a military family for the last 150 years.
So you can undertsant my point

Quote:
Where is anyone saying that even a penny of this money is going to vets when we are sending $1.5 billion to the muslim brotherhood?

Perhaps our vets should have received that money...

Why don't we instead talk about money going to other foreign countries who hate us... millions of dollars given to special interest groups.... money wasted trying to create industries that are scientifically unsound... let's talk about all the extra money we all pay in energy costs that directly related to poor energy management.....

Let's discuss the zero impact of the stimulus packages that threw money down the toilet.
That's right, it is always easy to spend the other people's money.

Quote:
But if taking $10,000 a year from "rich" people so they can't spend that money and create jobs - even if it's just supporting your local restaurants - when it's been historically shown that raising taxes on the furnace that keeps the economy going is a bad thing all around makes everyone feel better.

Then let's go to it.

Frankly, I think that's reprehensible and short-sighted.
This great country have a system structure problem and none of both political parties are willing to do something about it.

The way I see it, the society looks like "every man for himself" and that's very bad news.
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:40 PM
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No, it's not every man for himself.

There are plenty of people who give to charities:


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/opinion/21kristof.html?_r=0


But the more government taxes us the less money we have to help other people out ... and hire them for that matter.

That's not being stingy, that's just my personal philosophy that if we give people the tools and a business climate that encourages job growth then people should be able to take care of themselves.

I think that government gets about $.33 value for every dollar it collects or worse so I'd rather use my money myself. <if you know what this figure is Natural, please share>

I grew up in a home where my father worked and extra job in addition to being in the military and there have been times in my own life where I used one credit card to pay another. I'm not talking down from some ivory tower.

Saying that I'd rather more people keep more of their money so that they can spend it and hire people just seems to make good common sense from my perspective.

I think that we do truly need a safety net. But the more reliant people become on the government, the more it removes their natural drive to improve their situation..... we just have to look at macro economic projects in India - where there are some of the poorest people in the world and see how loaning a woman $25 to buy a sewing machine is so much more valuable than giving her a government handout.

Here is an example of people helping others...

http://www.thesewingmachineproject.o...-work/history/

Just because I think that government is for developing infrastructure, maintaining reasonable regulations, maintaining the justice system and national defense doesn't mean that I think people don't deserve a hand up.

You and I just have a different idea of who's hand should be out.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by txshellie View Post
No, it's not every man for himself.

There are plenty of people who give to charities
Charity isn't the solution, many people prefere to work rather than asking for charity and to be honest with you, charity is a kind of dignity depletion.


Quote:
But the more government taxes us the less money we have to help other people out ... and hire them for that matter.

That's not being stingy, that's just my personal philosophy that if we give people the tools and a business climate that encourages job growth then people should be able to take care of themselves.
It depends of your personal perception. People can take care of themeselves but not with $8 bucks an hours which is hypocritical to say: "hey take care of yourself, sorry we cannot pay your more than $8 minimum wages non indexed with the inflation or the living cost, too bad if you are paid this much for years and years."

Quote:
I think that government gets about $.33 value for every dollar it collects or worse so I'd rather use my money myself. <if you know what this figure is Natural, please share>
I don't know exactly, but the federal reserve take several cents for each dollar created, I can look up for you.

Quote:
Just because I think that government is for developing infrastructure, maintaining reasonable regulations, maintaining the justice system and national defense doesn't mean that I think people don't deserve a hand up.

You and I just have a different idea of who's hand should be out.
Sure and that's great to have different views. What I really think is that abuses are in both sides, and people in the middle are the one paying the high tab.
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by txshellie View Post

Some have put forth the idea that the Administration is not going to negotiate on any level because the default position - the expiring of the Bush tax cuts - will raise taxes on everyone and the Republicans will take the blame.

Everyone seems to forget that the cuts sliced the lowest tax bracket by 30%.....

... the expiring of the Bush tax cuts -


"2003 Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act"


Reconciliation in this law was the fact only Republicans voted for the legislation - "expiration" was written into the law by the Republicans - the maneuver prevented the OMB from properly predicting the massive budget deficits the law would produce and the inevitable outcome that occurred, "The Great Republican Recession of 07-09".


Quote:
txshellie: ... and the Republicans will take the blame

had they also insisted on the necessary spending cuts to go along with their legislation the law would have at least been a viable alternative for their perceived abuses by gov't. -

however simply passing a law that helped themselves in the short run but that led to a predictable collapse of the economy is indeed a law the Republicans deserve to be held accountable for.
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Old 12-07-2012, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by txshellie View Post
I think that government gets about $.33 value for every dollar it collects or worse so I'd rather use my money myself. <if you know what this figure is Natural, please share>
Just to give an idea, this is the average calculation. If I find something else interesting, I will post it.


The Value of a Dollar After Much Taxation

Dollars taxed on earning, capital gains, and consumption have to work extra hard just to get back to even. Surprisingly, it can be done with even modest gains.

Quote:
No one likes to pay taxes. Since taxation will not become a thing of the past, regardless of the various reform bills in place, investors should know exactly how much it takes to bring one's money up to the level they are being said to earn through their labor.

This explanation will be simple in that the only forms of taxation that will be covered will be income, capital gains, and sales taxes. Property, health care, and other taxes will not be accounted for. However, tax write offs, such as medical bills, daycare, and business expenses are not being noted either.

Therefore, the actual gains needed to bring a dollar up to its original level after being taxed will vary depending on the taxpayer.

For Every Dollar Earned, the Government Makes Change

Prior to the average person working in the United States receiving money he or she has worked for, the federal government withholds the portion for some of its own overhead. Currently, a person earning between $30k and $60k will only be entitled to receive 75% of his pay as a quarter of every dollar is taken by way of income taxes.
http://suite101.com/article/the-valu...xation-a139574
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Old 12-08-2012, 12:29 PM
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30 Major Corporations Paid No Income Taxes In The Last Three Years, While Making $160 Billion

Quote:
One of the driving forces behind the ongoing Occupy Wall Street protests is the fact that corporations have not been paying their fair share in taxes. A new report from Citizens for Tax Justice will no nothing to alleviate the protesters’ frustration.

CTJ looked at 280 companies, all of them members of the Fortune 500, and found that “while the federal corporate tax code ostensibly requires big corporations to pay a 35 percent corporate income tax rate, on average, the 280 corporations in our study paid only about half that amount.” And those who paid even half the statutory corporate tax rate paid far more than many of their competitors.

In fact, in the last three years, 78 corporations had at least one year where they paid no federal income tax at all, while 30 corporations paid not a dime over the entire three years. Those 30 corporations paid nothing, even though they made $160 billion in profits over that period:

– Seventy-eight of the 280 companies paid zero or less in federal income taxes in at least one year from 2008 to 2010…In the years they paid no income tax, these companies earned $156 billion in pretax U.S. profits. But instead of paying $55 billion in income taxes as the 35 percent corporate tax rate seems to require, these companies generated so many excess tax breaks that they reported negative taxes (often receiving outright tax rebate checks from the U.S. Treasury), totaling $21.8 billion. These companies’ “negative tax rates” mean that they made more after taxes than before taxes in those no-tax years.

– Thirty corporations paid less than nothing in aggregate federal income taxes over the entire 2008-10 period. These companies, whose pretax U.S. profits totaled $160 billion over the three years, included: Pepco Holdings (–57.6% tax rate), General Electric (–45.3%), DuPont (–3.4%), Verizon (–2.9%), Boeing (–1.8%), Wells Fargo (–1.4%) and Honeywell (–0.7%).

As CTJ’s report put it, “just as workers pay their fair share of taxes on their earnings, so should successful businesses pay their fair share on their success. But today corporate tax loopholes are so out of control that most Americans can rightfully complain, ‘I pay more federal income taxes than General Electric, Boeing, DuPont, Wells Fargo, Verizon, etc., etc., all put together.’ That’s an unacceptable situation.” And its one that lawmakers could fix, if they were willing to stand up to the nation’s biggest corporations.
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/201...ions-no-taxes/
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Old 12-08-2012, 04:32 PM
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Corporate taxation is a feel-good illusion for the more naive among the many advocates of class warfare. Corporations don't pay taxes; they just collect them.

Their customers (through higher prices) and their investors (through lower returns) pay the costs that constitute "corporate taxes". Taxes are just one of many costs of doimg business that gets treated like any other.
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Old 12-08-2012, 05:34 PM
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I get the impression obama, notwithstanding his adamant assurance in the third debate that sequestration will NOT happen... Wants to go over the fiscal cliff, and expects to be able to blame it on the GOP. Given he has a complicit media, he can probably get away with it too.

Frankly i dont think our nation realizes we're in a handbasket headed south and its getting warmer. I'm not marginally optimistic this is going to end well, and the sad part is it is going to slam the nation, not just "the rich". The "rich" may at least have enough savings to last thru it. Those that are already struggling are the ones who will be really screwed.

Dont take my word for it... Just come back in a year and let me know if you're in better or worse shape.
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Old 12-08-2012, 05:53 PM
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Rob are you saying you aren't better off now than you were 4 years ago?
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Old 12-08-2012, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Barr View Post
Corporate taxation is a feel-good illusion for the more naive among the many advocates of class warfare. Corporations don't pay taxes; they just collect them.

Their customers (through higher prices) and their investors (through lower returns) pay the costs that constitute "corporate taxes". Taxes are just one of many costs of doimg business that gets treated like any other.
I agree with you, perhaps things must change

Quote:
Originally Posted by robjones View Post
Those that are already struggling are the ones who will be really screwed.
That's exactly right, again what is the solution?
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Old 12-08-2012, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by robjones
Those that are already struggling are the ones who will be really screwed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by natural
That's exactly right, again what is the solution?
If my post suggested i think there's any hope of a solution i apologize for misleading you. I dont think the bucketheads in DC could find their butt with both hands even if they were so inclined.

Our spending so outpaces our revenue there isnt a solution that doesnt involve massive program cuts. Even if we took every dime of income the 1% makes it wouldnt make a dent in the problem, so arguing about what percentage of the American incomes we take is like deciding whether to bail the titanic with a teaspoon or a soup spoon.

Meanwhile the president is calling for greater spending and a permanent removal of the debt ceiling. That'll destroy our credit rating to the level of junk bonds, which would increase our payments on money borrowed. Our debt would increase at an ever increasing rate, like water pouring over the bulkhead as the list of the sinking ship increases. Knowing the players, we'll then try to print our way out of it, generating massive inflation.

We'll not see a realistic solution. That would require serious statesmen making hard decisions, and we mostly have politicians making decisions they think will get them re-elected. Most likely we are going to see sequestration, then we'll see the incoming class try to mollify some of the negative effects as the economy goes into crash mode.

My general opinion is DC is rapidly increasing the pace toward financial ruin. I'm literally in the process of moving to the boonies where i'll have well water and a long clear line of sight from the door to the road. My level of optimism is sub-zero. If we are really lucky, I'm wrong. Not taking the chance on it personally.
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Old 12-09-2012, 10:50 AM
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Like the preamble of the Constitution said:

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

In fact today it is replaced by "We the elite, executive branch, corporations, banking cartel,..."

Actually there are only 4 entities: The People (the slaves), the executive branch (Slave drivers), The corporations (the houses of Lords) and the owners of the system (Masters of the banking cartel).
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Old 12-09-2012, 11:14 AM
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the election is over -

time for the Republicans to begin managing their affairs accordingly, they are the only obstacles to ensuring the tax rates for everyone earning less than $250K remain the same, as per the election results.

or let them all expire to a higher level as written in their own legislation.


either way, the Administration will remain the primary arbiter for all immediate legislation and for the foreseeable future.
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