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Old 12-12-2012, 04:25 PM
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Right to work....

Correct me if I am wrong, the main aspect of a Right to Work law is that business owners and Unions cannot form an agreement that a person will be denied employment if not a Union member. This includes a Union member who does not pay their dues losing Union status not being able to be fired.

This being the case, let us start the debate about what is wrong with this? People have the choice to join the Union or not join the Union and be able to work at a place of employment either way.
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Old 12-12-2012, 06:34 PM
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You have that partly right. In some states that are not "right to work states" you can only work at plant A if you join the union. No join, no work. In a "right to work state" of which Kentucky is one you can not be prevented from getting a job simply because you refuse to join a union.

This greatly reduces the power of the unions. And they don't like it.

Now what we gonna talk about?
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Old 12-12-2012, 08:12 PM
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I think all unions are there to make money from workers if they intend to help my forcing people to join them and joining is not free but payable with money!! that is corruption in another way. It is workers right wether to join the union all not but they should not deny them jobs that is not fair.
 
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:01 PM
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Every time I think about it the word "Extortion" comes to mind. I have brought forth the argument in the past to peoples dismay that if you are working for an employer and you feel that the employer is taking advantage of you or treating you wrong that it is simple, find another job. Those who were opposed to that then said they should not have to leave to be able to be treated fairly in their opinion. Thus this argument supported their argument in favor of Unions.

Having looked at those states that allow the Union to make part of the company Union contract that only Union members be able work there, are they not doing the exact same thing?
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:49 PM
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We have a question:
What wage do the non union people get in a divided shop? Assuming you are talking about 2 people, union and non union, doing the same job in the same shop.
 
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:41 PM
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I did not join the union and received the same wage that the union cops got...
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HTMLBasicTutor View Post
We have a question:
What wage do the non union people get in a divided shop? Assuming you are talking about 2 people, union and non union, doing the same job in the same shop.
I think it is the same wage for most jobs, which is another "discussion point" that union members offer. The non-member gets the benefit without the cost. To which I would have to reply that the good employees at auto maker T exceeds the union wage without a union present. They do expect and demand performance as a condition of employment but they pay for it.
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Old 12-13-2012, 08:37 AM
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I really don't "understand" the concept of Right to Work law.

Workers and employers have their respective Unions in my country and people are free to join or not. The wages in my country do not depend of the Unions but rather the Conventions collectives which are agrements between employers and Unions. Unions are still powerful if they are not sided with a political party.

Perhaps for an American it is weird, but in France each side is represented by their own unions and there are many choices to chose from depending of your ideology.
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Old 12-13-2012, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Gillum View Post
I did not join the union and received the same wage that the union cops got...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScriptMan View Post
I think it is the same wage for most jobs, which is another "discussion point" that union members offer. The non-member gets the benefit without the cost. To which I would have to reply that the good employees at auto maker T exceeds the union wage without a union present. They do expect and demand performance as a condition of employment but they pay for it.
Then why would one join the union?
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Old 12-13-2012, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by HTMLBasicTutor View Post
Then why would one join the union?
It takes a tough shell to stand out from the crowd. Why do people join social clubs?

I'm sure there are some backroom deals and perks that also influence the choice. If the schedule maker is union and you are not, who do you think is going to get all the crappy shifts or jobs?
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Old 12-13-2012, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post
I really don't "understand" the concept of Right to Work law.

Workers and employers have their respective Unions in my country and people are free to join or not. The wages in my country do not depend of the Unions but rather the Conventions collectives which are agrements between employers and Unions. Unions are still powerful if they are not sided with a political party.

Perhaps for an American it is weird, but in France each side is represented by their own unions and there are many choices to chose from depending of your ideology.
This might help clear the confusion better than anything I can write: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScriptMan View Post
This might help clear the confusion better than anything I can write: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law
Quote:
a government regulation of the contractual agreements between employers and labor unions that prevents them from excluding non-union workers
Right to Work law means freedom to work for all workers.

If the Union does a good job by protecting the worker's interests, and providing legal help like free lawyers, etc workers will embrass it with no problem.

That's what an Union is made for, protect and assist the workers within the laws and perhaps make some law suggestions or reforms to lawmakers.
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post
Right to Work law means freedom to work for all workers.

If the Union does a good job by protecting the worker's interests, and providing legal help like free lawyers, etc workers will embrass it with no problem.

That's what an Union is made for, protect and assist the workers within the laws and perhaps make some law suggestions or reforms to lawmakers.
So, one of the arguments the Union offers against the right to work law is that employees get to benefit from union contracts without having to pay the dues. My argument is, this is not the case. Rather than following Union contract when an individual goes for the employment they are forming their own contract and the wages while based on what the average is, is also based on what the new employee is willing to work for. Same negotiations as the Union would do for the collective except they are doing it as an individual. If they are not getting something they want then it comes down to the "I want or I don't work" as an individual instead of a group.

Being in the Union can also have bad effects. Example, U.S. Sugar Corporation pays bonuses at the end of every season, or at least they used to don't know if they still do. Back in 2000 the bonus was offered based on price of sugar that year. The Union was not satisfied with it and went into negotiations about it. This delayed the payment of the bonus to union members, and by the time the negotiation was done the Non-Union members actually got paid more on their bonus check than the Union members did. I don't remember the details be it working hours, some other benefits etc. But those not in the union actually came out better than those in the union.

Statistically the Labor department reports on average that the Non-right to work forced union states tend to make about 3.6% more in wages than the right to work states. If you add in the amount that union members have to pay in dues then it is give or take a fraction about equal either way.

But yes, the point is, why are unions given the ability to force people to be members or not be able to have jobs? This is in my opinion counter to freedom and rights that this country is supposed to represent.
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:25 PM
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[QUOTE=webcrafters;1958645]So, one of the arguments the Union offers against the right to work law is that employees get to benefit from union contracts without having to pay the dues.[QUOTE]

Employees that never sign up for Union do not have the same protection, perhaps the same wage but that's only about it.


Quote:
My argument is, this is not the case. Rather than following Union contract when an individual goes for the employment they are forming their own contract and the wages while based on what the average is, is also based on what the new employee is willing to work for. Same negotiations as the Union would do for the collective except they are doing it as an individual. If they are not getting something they want then it comes down to the "I want or I don't work" as an individual instead of a group.
We disagree on that, I guess you are not surprise

So according to you Union contract are bad but purring billion of dollars in lobbyism, evading taxes in fiscal paradis is ok, create foundations with fiscal exempt is ok, but Unions ah not that. You are funny, you just want to deprive people from unions to let them vunerable to the other side super duper organized under other collective forms, bravo!

Quote:
But yes, the point is, why are unions given the ability to force people to be members or not be able to have jobs? This is in my opinion counter to freedom and rights that this country is supposed to represent.
Unions shouldn't force people to sign up to get a job, but that's my humble opinion, freedom is the key to an healthy society, so we agree on this.
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Last edited by Franc Tireur; 12-13-2012 at 12:28 PM.
 
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post

Employees that never sign up for Union do not have the same protection, perhaps the same wage but that's only about it.




We disagree on that, I guess you are not surprise

So according to you Union contract are bad but purring billion of dollars in lobbyism, evading taxes in fiscal paradis is ok, create foundations with fiscal exempt is ok, but Unions ah not that. You are funny, you just want to deprive people from unions to let them vunerable to the other side super duper organized under other collective forms, bravo!



Unions shouldn't force people to sign up to get a job, but that's my humble opinion, freedom is the key to an healthy society, so we agree on this.
What do we disagree on? The statement was that rather than a Union contract dictating what an employee must be paid it is an individual negotiation between the prospective employee and the employer. In other words since the person elects not to be a Union member they do not benefit from the Union contracts be it good or bad. Rather they form their own agreement. Nothing anywhere says that an Employer is demanded to hire someone, nor is it demanded that a person work for a particular employer. This gives both parties bargaining power. If I am a 25 year computer veteran I can negotiate a higher wage when going to work at say the Geek Squad at best buy than could a high school graduate with limited experience. An industrial engineer with 20+ years of experience can negotiate a better package than a recent college graduate given the right circumstances. If the employer doesn't offer as much as wanted then you go looking elsewhere. If the employer is looking for someone that has less experience so they can mold them into what they need then they are more likely to hire and offer the better package to the less experienced.

My statement was not that Union contracts are naturally bad, it was that a person should not be forced to be part of a Union rather have a choice if the Union is present. I simply was stating a point that Unions and collective bargaining do not always provide the best benefit. As to the relation to the billions in lobbying and tax exempt statuses I fail to see any relation to this discussion.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by webcrafters View Post
What do we disagree on?

Union contract dictating what an employee must be paid
Absolutely not, Union represent the employees wishes, they delegate the power to the Union, they are just negotiating what the employees want/accept with the employer/board directors/shareholders.

Quote:
I simply was stating a point that Unions and collective bargaining do not always provide the best benefit.
That's the business of the Union delegates and the employees.


Quote:
As to the relation to the billions in lobbying and tax exempt statuses I fail to see any relation to this discussion.
It is not new that lobbying against unions' interests is frequent, as far as tax exempt on foundations, it is a cheap way to manage think tanks that promote politics and new laws mainly for corporations interests.
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:04 PM
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Absolutely not, Union represent the employees wishes, they delegate the power to the Union, they are just negotiating what the employees want/accept with the employer/board directors/shareholders.



That's the business of the Union delegates and the employees.




It is not new that lobbying against unions' interests is frequent, as far as tax exempt on foundations, it is a cheap way to manage think tanks that promote politics and new laws mainly for corporations interests.
More often than not, the union works for the best interests of the union.
They care very little about the employees in the union far too often.
At least, that is how it seems to work in North America.
 
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:35 PM
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More often than not, the union works for the best interests of the union.
They care very little about the employees in the union far too often.
At least, that is how it seems to work in North America.
That's why it is important that Unions shouldn't force people to join to get a job, freedom and liberty to chose and leave the Union if they are not doing what you expect.
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Old 12-15-2012, 05:17 AM
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Then why would one join the union?
The early union officers were "out for revenge" , rather than improving conditions....

The benefits that they were offering were already being provided by the city....(most employees did not even know what they were receiving beyond the salary).....

And there was no strength in the union position....

A decent cop can not strike.....some one could get hurt....
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