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Old 12-16-2012, 02:05 PM
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Thumbs down What Meaningful Actions Would Prevent Violent Tragedies?

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“As a country, we have been through this too many times. Whether it is an elementary school in Newtown, or a shopping mall in Oregon, or a temple in Wisconsin, or a movie theater in Aurora, or a street corner in Chicago, these neighborhoods are our neighborhoods and these children are our children. And we're going to have to come together and take meaningful action to prevent more tragedies like this, regardless of the politics.” http://www.npr.org/2012/12/14/167275...chool-shooting
While I certainly can’t interpret what President Obama means by “meaningful action” I can’t help but ask – Could stronger gun control laws prevent the types of tragedies we have seen in the news over the years?

Would people who choose to commit murder decide not to do so if there were stronger gun laws?

Connecticut is thought to have some of the strongest gun laws in the nation.

Did it help?

There have been multiple reports (unconfirmed) that Adam Lanza attempted to purchase a long gun a few days prior to the Newtown tragedy but was unwilling to wait for the 14-day background check. [Resource]

Did it stop him?

There are some who believe that the changes that need to occur involve addressing mental health issues in our nation.

Quote:
"I agree that something must be done. It’s time for a meaningful, nation-wide conversation about mental health. That’s the only way our nation can ever truly heal."
http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.c...thinkable.html
What “meaningful action” do you believe could make a difference and why do you feel that way?

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Old 12-16-2012, 04:35 PM
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For starters, I'm not prepared to assume the same administration that in the process of supposedly controlling firearms got caught peddling thousands to Mexican drug cartels is any kind of authority on "meaningful action".

Noticeably absent from discussions i've seen in the media is any mention of why the shooter at Clackamas Mall went in armed to the teeth and only managed to kill two people. That struck me immediately when i heard the story as being way odd.

Since then there are stories making the rounds about the reason: an armed citizen with a CCW licensed handgun went toward the sound of gunshots and the shooter, who like most mass gun killers anticipated no resistance, retreated when confronted with ANY gun, despite holding superior firepower. Trapped, unable to continue his spree, not interested in capture, he killed himself.

That echoes the events at...
-1- the Pearl MS school shooting in 81 (a principal armed himself with a weapon from his car and the much more heavily armed shooter folded like a card table)
-2- the Appalachian law school shooting where the loon was held until the police arrived, by two students that retrieved arms from their vehicle.

Other examples include robbery attempts gone awry...
-3- the recent attempted robbery at an AutoZone, where an employee retireved a weapon from his car and confronted the armed robber... Who then fled.
-4- the recent attempted melee robbery of an internet cafe, where two men came in, 1 shooting a gun, 1 smashing PCs with a bat. A 72 yr old CCW holder fired at them and they ran like scalded dogs
-5- A recent attempted robbery of a jewelry store, where 5 men entered, some with guns, and screamed at the customers to get down as they fired shots. The lady owner was in the back, and she retrieved a handgun... Fired at the intruders, and all five exited like their tails were on fire.

These gunmen, whether deranged school shooters or just robbers, have a common thread: they're cowards and no matter what gear they have on or what firearms they carry, they tend to fold when armed resistance comes. They dont stay and shoot it out, they hide or run.

Lives can be saved by eliminating the ridiculous fantasy devices called "gun free zones". They dont work. Does anyone think the g that shot children in Connecticut, who had already committed murder, robbery of firearms, and theft of a vehicle, and was on his way to a school to murder small children... was going to turn around because he saw a SIGN?

If they believe that, maybe we just needed to make the sign bigger.

The best thing to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. Arm several people at the school who have the willingness to become proficient, and dont bother telling anyone who they are. Arm as many faculty and staff as are willing to take training. That will either stop school shootings or at least limit the damage.

End gun free zones entirely. They are a liberal fantasy. Lives will be saved.
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Old 12-16-2012, 05:28 PM
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Well I was writing this long essay about how great it is to live in a country that had gun laws; peaceful, free and safe and all that but ...

It's too late for meaningful action in the US. 300 million guns in the public's hands - wow. You'll just have to arm yourselves with bigger and better guns and hope for the best. You probably should try to make it compulsory that everyone carries weapons for their own safety you know. And you'll just have to learn to deal with the occasional tragedy like other countries in similar violent situations like Afghanistan, Irag, Syria, Somalia etc.

I wish you well.
 
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Old 12-16-2012, 05:36 PM
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First and foremost let me once again extend my deepest sympathies for anyone touched by any of these events.

Such events tend to bring out the emotional side in the even the hardest of us. Consequently discussing remedies immediately after such an event are is not the best time frame for discussion.

Having said all that, strict enforcement of existing laws, the elimination of "gun free free" zones for those licensed to carry, swift and deadly action by law enforcement are certainly steps in the right direction. Not one of these people caught at the the scene or in the act should ever live to waste the court's time.

Having listened to a couple of mental health "experts" on TV, I am not convinced that any type of screening program could or would be effective. I am open to discussion on this part.

I personally hold the national media somewhat guilty. If they did not provide the detailed coverage and broadcast the names of the perps, I think it it might serve as a minor deterrent. Mentally ill people can confuse infamy with fame. Calling them what they are, sick F**** (self edited) might prevent at least one of these nightmares. Put them down. Talk about what little minds they must have. Never mention their name.

As antagonistic as this will be to some, more gun control is not the answer. Only law abiding people will obey gun control laws. We need more people , trained and ready to use deadly force, not fewer.
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Old 12-16-2012, 05:42 PM
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Looked at the CDC website a minute ago. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

The current figure for gun homicides is 11,493
The figure for death by accidental falls is twice that... So i believe the time is long since passed to have a conversation about sensible ladder control. [and dont tell me when ladders are outlawed, only outlaws will have ladders.]

Coming in higher was death by accidental poisoning
Roughly three times the death by firearm homicide. What law shall we pass to address this. [Surely everything can be improved by applying the collective brain of the federal government.] maybe we could require that new brides take mandatory cooking classes and pass a test? No, let's not take chances, let's outlaw cooking at home. Surely Dominoes delivery is safer. It's for the good of the children ya know.

Even worse, i saw a figure on another site for death by medical accident: 195,000!
Hmm. You might make a fair argument that for the safety of society... we'd be safer shooting the doctors.

But what about the lives doctors do NOT snuff out?
Dont they save more lives than they take? Yes, but so do guns, and nobody wants to hear that argument with reference to them either.
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Old 12-16-2012, 05:44 PM
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This is indeed an awful tragedy but let's discuss:

Drugs are illegal (meaning cocaine, heroine, etc...) How's that working?
Alcohol used to be illegal. How did that go?
Murder, rape, robbery, etc...are already illegal. So there's no murder, rape or robberies?
Most serial killers (some killing 20, 50 and even 100 people) did not use guns.

The shooter in this case tried to buy a gun and was denied. In turn, he grabbed his mother's weapons. If there was no weapons at his mother's house, this is a guy who decided he was going to carry out a mass murder. He'd have acquired weapons.
 
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Old 12-16-2012, 06:14 PM
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to keep and bear Arms ...


"Arms" - is interpretive and should be clarified by Congress.

and the correct interpretation for the citizenry would be all firearms should be bolt or leaver action with a maximum of 6 rounds capacity, chamber fed.

no exceptions.


the citizenry of a country should not be held hostage by gun enthusiasts for any reason.
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Old 12-16-2012, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
and the correct interpretation for the citizenry would be all firearms should be bolt or leaver action with a maximum of 6 rounds capacity, chamber fed.
Wow. I checked. There's no mention of 6 round bolt or lever action / chamber fed in the constitution, but it does describe the Mauser 98 you own rather well. Think ya might be doing a little self-serving interpretation there Breeze. Funny your own weapon slips right under the wire.
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Old 12-16-2012, 06:35 PM
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The gun free zones are criminal's magnet, it is a free pass for crimes and shouldn't exist at all. Legislators failed to understand that autorities cannot protect kids or people in gun free zones, because criminals don't obey laws.

Restrictions and bans will only affect law abiding citizen, not criminals or deranged individuals.

National Review: Gun Control Doesn't Work
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=128186209
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Old 12-16-2012, 08:57 PM
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Mental health in our country has deteriorated of the years.....

Or the media shows us more instances ......
One has to be crazy to kill another human without just legal cause.....yet it happens every day...

I have been involved in many murder investigations...many without firearms...

Most were for just plain stupid reasons.....
"He disrespected me"....(So go to jail for 25 years)...
Cheaper than a divorce......(So go to jail for 25 years)
He danced with my girl friend.....(Yup...)...
He cut me off in traffic.....

Dope deal gone bad.....(Two down)....
Robbed the corner store...shot the owner...got $25....(Another 25 years)...

In a lot of the instances, IMO, we will find the lack of a solid family structure......hence mental heath problems...

The problem has been building for many years....
Enhanced by the lack of value for human life.....
Video games that feature killing.....when you die you come back...(Really)...

I do however, believe that a well armed trained public is a deterrent...)
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Old 12-17-2012, 08:05 AM
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I agree with Jim here, the problem lays mainly within the family structure.

Thing is (and I hate to say it but) it is only going to get worse as I see no light at the end of this tunnel.

Video games will cause a big problem with children as they become more true-to-life and certain impressionable children will act upon it.

Heck, violence introduced to a child at any level is a bad thing, be it through games, certain music telling people to hate the "man" and the system and "to f*&£ with it all" as some of these tunes say.

People want a respectful and peaceful society when in reality all a lot of people get to see if violence on the news, viloence in films (gloryfying it even), violence in games, violence within music, some lyrics inciting hate.... This is the world in which most all children grow up in and as parents, one can only do their best to instill the proper values into a child and that hopefully the child comes to understand.

The problem is that there are many sides to this situation and no one side will solve the problem.

I am from the UK and don't personally believe that guns help (its a culture thing ;-)) but as the USA seems to be all for everyone having the right to carry one, then I believe that this law should be passed accross all States and mandatory as it could minimise situations like this one. Though the other side of this could be, out of all the "well armed and trained" public, how many of those run the risk of at some point breaking down and doing something crazy? I don't know the answer to this question but I imagine a psychological stats report somewhere would tell us the percentages of society that actually break down randomly and quite severely and arming them with a gun could also pose more problems.
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Old 12-17-2012, 08:10 AM
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+1 on the video games. You can see this demonstrated on the public highways as people zip in and out like they are playing some stupid driving game on a computer.

So if the military looks for people who are good at games to manipulate their high tech weapons what does this say about us creating these little bombs?
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:23 AM
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video games ?

I wonder if any of the recent events can be linked to that medium or any other linkages that may exist ?


is there any explanation why the Newton suspect would shoot his mother then drive to the school she taught at and continue to kill people ?


just like the Colorado suspect - it just seems they have a need to harm people.
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:36 AM
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RE: VIDEO GAMES
Several here have experience training horses, and are familiar with the training concept of "Desensitization". Horses are naturally averse to some activities, like crossing a running stream or walking over a wooden bridge. You can however by repeated exposure to such stimuli, in which they are not harmed, convince them it is OK, if not enjoyable.

You can do the same thing with humans.

That theory isnt new. Prosecutors have been known to not allow butchers to serve on a murder trial jury because the sight of blood doesn't really bother them. Does anyone think kids can watch countless hours of slasher films where victims plead and scream while the bad guy slices them up with a chainsaw or tortures them and be totally unaffected?

There is a strong case to be made that repeated exposure to violent gory movies, bloody first person shooter video games, etc... simply desensitizes children to gore and death. Besides, in their experience death is no biggie, everyone gets a new life when you reboot the game.
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:51 AM
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It looks like one school district in Texas is going to take meaningful action.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,404721,00.html
 
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:57 AM
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That story is dated 2008 Cricket. If like we've been told, allowing some teachers and administrators to carry LED to shootings instead of prevented them, we'd have heard about the school shooting there by now. Four years later, no carnage. Go figure.

I saw a blog post last night that was posted a year after that ordinance went into effect that pointed out exactly that. To the students in that rural community, raised with guns, it was just Ho-hum, big deal. It didnt turn into the wild-wild-west as we've all been warned.
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Old 12-17-2012, 10:05 AM
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WOW! I didn't even catch the date. I wonder why it showed up in my news feed this morning?
 
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Old 12-17-2012, 10:08 AM
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Okay, now I see why. Others referenced this article.

Some sites are just now discussing it.
http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/12...ers-carry.html
 
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Old 12-17-2012, 10:11 AM
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I am curious what role media plays in all of this.
 
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Old 12-17-2012, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robjones View Post
RE: VIDEO GAMES
Several here have experience training horses, and are familiar with the training concept of "Desensitization". Horses are naturally averse to some activities, like crossing a running stream or walking over a wooden bridge. You can however by repeated exposure to such stimuli, in which they are not harmed, convince them it is OK, if not enjoyable.

You can do the same thing with humans.

That theory isnt new. Prosecutors have been known to not allow butchers to serve on a murder trial jury because the sight of blood doesn't really bother them. Does anyone think kids can watch countless hours of slasher films where victims plead and scream while the bad guy slices them up with a chainsaw or tortures them and be totally unaffected?

There is a strong case to be made that repeated exposure to violent gory movies, bloody first person shooter video games, etc... simply desensitizes children to gore and death. Besides, in their experience death is no biggie, everyone gets a new life when you reboot the game.
... simply desensitizes children

the above makes a strong case well taken -


but in this case what was the motivation to travel to a new location and continue the rampage - something more than a learned response was at work.
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