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Old 04-30-2013, 04:00 PM
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Thumbs down Has Ron Paul Go Too Far This Time?

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Ron Paul slams Boston police. Has he gone too far?
http://news.yahoo.com/ron-paul-slams...170321289.html

Ron Paul, in a posting on the website of a libertarian activist, accused US law enforcement of 'a military-style occupation of an American city' in its response to the Boston bombing.
Please read the full article before responding with your thoughts...
 
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Old 04-30-2013, 04:50 PM
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In a lot of ways, he's right in his comments.
From the article:
Quote:
In a post on the website of libertarian activist Lew Rockwell, Mr. Paul said Monday that the governmental reaction to the tragic explosions was worse than the attack itself. The forced lockdown of much of the Boston area, police riding armored vehicles through the streets, and door-to-door searches without warrants were all reminiscent of a military coup or martial law, Paul added.
There was a large area of the city that was locked down.

There were a lot police riding around in armored vehicles.

There were people taken from their homes at gunpoint. Their homes were then searched without warrants.

A particularly disturbing photo was taken from an upstairs window. It shows someone in law enforcement standing in the turret of an armored vehicle. He's sighting in on the photographer with his (presumably) automatic weapon. (I'll see if I can find a copy of it to post.)

While I wouldn't go so far as to say that it was martial law, it certainly looked like it.

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Old 04-30-2013, 05:03 PM
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It's a difficult one because they were so desperate to catch this guy and maybe because of this overkill, this may have scared the kid into running away and hiding and eventually getting found. Good thing of course.

The bad side of it is the moment the authorities throw laws out of the window and start searching without warrants and dragging people out of their homes, then like Bob said, it does look like martial law.

The thought in the back of my mind here is - "Is this a sign of things to come for the nation as more of these terrorists pop up".. Probably need to find better ways to deal with this otherwise the terrorists have won. I mean, think about it, terrorism is all about striking fear and terror into your enemy and if a terrorist organisation can cause cities to go into lockdown and terrorising the people, then they are achieving a part of their objective.
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Old 04-30-2013, 05:10 PM
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While I consider myself a committed libertarian I can not agree with Ron Paul in this particular case. The fact that the precedent might be used in future cases disturbs me more greatly.

In this particular case I think the nation needed resolution and finality. I can't say that I would complain if my home was searched with only the intent to find the fugitive. There is nothing in my home except a bad attitude. I doubt the searches were so thorough as to find a stashed bag of anything and I doubt there will be any follow up for most items observed.

I think the situation can be addressed in a legal manner with a simple change in search warrants to allow blanket searches for particular items/persons only while excluding misc. items discovered during said search. That should satisfy most of the reasonable libertarians.
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Old 04-30-2013, 06:49 PM
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I will say exactly like Bob and G10. I will also say that it is very disturbing on many points and they may have been helped.

For me, there are more than these two terrorists involved, and I think we don't know the whole story.
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Old 05-01-2013, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
"The Boston bombing provided the opportunity for the government to turn what should have been a police investigation into a military-style occupation of an American city,” according to Paul."
I just can't help wondering if the NYC, Washington or the entire USA was lockdown on and after 9/11 ..
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Old 05-01-2013, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barr View Post
In a lot of ways, he's right in his comments.
From the article:


There was a large area of the city that was locked down.

There were a lot police riding around in armored vehicles.

There were people taken from their homes at gunpoint. Their homes were then searched without warrants.

A particularly disturbing photo was taken from an upstairs window. It shows someone in law enforcement standing in the turret of an armored vehicle. He's sighting in on the photographer with his (presumably) automatic weapon. (I'll see if I can find a copy of it to post.)

While I wouldn't go so far as to say that it was martial law, it certainly looked like it.
Interesting.
What would be the difference between martial law and what took place in Watertown?
I saw the picture you speak of. It is exactly as you tell it.
Someone in their own home with a camera being targetted by someone in an armored vehicle with a weapon.

Martial Law (defined)
The exercise of government and control by military authorities over the civilian population of a designated territory.

Sounds to me like martial law is exactly what took place in Watertown.
Not something similar to martial law. It WAS martial law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G10 View Post
It's a difficult one because they were so desperate to catch this guy and maybe because of this overkill, this may have scared the kid into running away and hiding and eventually getting found. Good thing of course.

The bad side of it is the moment the authorities throw laws out of the window and start searching without warrants and dragging people out of their homes, then like Bob said, it does look like martial law.
They really wanted to get the guys who started the Reichstag fire too.
We all know how that turned out.
So, maybe disregarding existing laws and the rights of people isn't the best move?

Quote:
Originally Posted by G10 View Post
The thought in the back of my mind here is - "Is this a sign of things to come for the nation as more of these terrorists pop up".. Probably need to find better ways to deal with this otherwise the terrorists have won. I mean, think about it, terrorism is all about striking fear and terror into your enemy and if a terrorist organisation can cause cities to go into lockdown and terrorising the people, then they are achieving a part of their objective.
Bingo. The terr'ists have already won.
"They hate us for our freedoms."
So... the answer is to get rid of your freedoms so they'll like you again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScriptMan View Post
While I consider myself a committed libertarian I can not agree with Ron Paul in this particular case. The fact that the precedent might be used in future cases disturbs me more greatly.

In this particular case I think the nation needed resolution and finality. I can't say that I would complain if my home was searched with only the intent to find the fugitive. There is nothing in my home except a bad attitude. I doubt the searches were so thorough as to find a stashed bag of anything and I doubt there will be any follow up for most items observed.
Would you still feel as welcoming to the militarized police if they were pointing a gun (or several guns) at your face and the faces of your family while they searched your home illegally?
I would argue that it's not about whether or not you have something to hide.
It's about basic privacy and human decency.
You have a right to your privacy and just because there's a criminal on the loose, it doesn't necessarily follow that you no longer deserve your privacy, nor basic respect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScriptMan View Post
I think the situation can be addressed in a legal manner with a simple change in search warrants to allow blanket searches for particular items/persons only while excluding misc. items discovered during said search. That should satisfy most of the reasonable libertarians.
Blanket searches and libertarianism are at odds with each other.

I can't believe that so many in Boston / Watertown were so willing to give up their freedoms so quickly.
If the US government is going to strip you of your rights (regardless of the stated reason) and that's the best the citizenry can offer in terms of protecting their rights, then the battle for your rights appears to be all over already.
The residents of Boston / Watertown were getting a first hand lesson on what the government thinks of your "rights", all the while chanting "U! S! A!, U! S! A!".
It boggles the mind.

[YT]cp069Y_P-9M[/YT]

If Ron Paul is taking heat for his comments, it's not because he's wrong.
It's because he's right when so many don't want to admit it.
And, if the masses continue to shy away from the truth, they will wake up one day with no rights at all and nobody but themselves to blame.
The PTB are counting on the masses to do exactly that.

Last edited by Zap; 05-01-2013 at 08:28 AM.
 
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:27 AM
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Extreme situations call for extreme measures....

Monday morning quarterbacks are very prolific with their advice...
generally from someone who has never had to deal with emergency situations....

The "gun pointer" was an individual with very bad judgment.... (he is lucky he did not work for me)....

Real life and real "bad guys"......
and politicians.....
Which is worse?
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
And while Paul’s position here is, um, not in the majority ...
in retrospect the public may have become more supportive of Paul than an implied minority ...


Quote:


http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative...v-2630114.html

2 US Officials Go Public, There Was No Gun Battle On Boat With Dzhokar Tsarnaev

Two unnamed U.S. officials have told the Associated Press that the surviving suspect in the Boston bombings was unarmed when police captured him hiding inside a boat in a neighborhood back yard. The report contradicts the Boston police department’s own account of Dzhokar Tsarnaev’s capture on Friday – after commissioner Ed Davies described a firefight between him and officers before the terror suspect was captured.

The New York Times also said an M4 rifle had been found on the boat – another claim contradicted by the latest revelations. Officers had originally said they had exchanged gunfire with Tsarnaev for more than one hour Friday evening before they were able to subdue him. But on Wednesday, the law enforcement officials told the AP that no gun was found aboard the vessel.

even if the force was necessary, what is not justified is their taking the law into their own hands and becoming the Judge and Jury as well.
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:42 AM
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When I read this kind of article below, there are some questions to ask about many things. Not to say that I beleive everything in this article, but this event is full of misinformation which tells me that something needed to be hidden for good or bad reasons, I don't know.

The Boston Bombing Web of Lies
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-bos...f-lies/5332981
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Old 05-01-2013, 03:21 PM
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I don't want to put a worse slant on an already bad event but something in that news article interested me, it is something I mentioned and Zap also.
Quote:
Overall, the Boston tragedy is clearly and sadly being exploited to revamp the “War on terror”, justify the police state apparatus in the US and other Western countries such as Canada, and legitimize attacks on our rights and liberties.
In all the terror attacks we have had in England (and we have had a fair few) we have never gone so "military state" crazy as of yet as that just scares the hell out of the people.
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Old 05-01-2013, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G10 View Post
In all the terror attacks we have had in England (and we have had a fair few) we have never gone so "military state" crazy as of yet as that just scares the hell out of the people.
You cannot imagine how many times we had terrorism in France, and we never experienced a lost of freedom and liberties beside military patrols on silkwalk and more police in some areas. Government tell us to be extremely vigilant and people followed the advises, and helped the authorities when suspect packages were found.

I never saw any machine guns on armored vehicules patrolling the French streets.
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Old 05-01-2013, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Gillum View Post
Extreme situations call for extreme measures....

Monday morning quarterbacks are very prolific with their advice...
generally from someone who has never had to deal with emergency situations....
I am just going to say +1 for this comment.
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Old 05-02-2013, 05:47 AM
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Bob, I am not saying that as a one-off that it was wrong, just as long as it doesn't set a standard of things to come as trust me, your government will use this as a "fear" tactic to achieve what it wants and terrorists who watched this will use this "fear" tactic also to disrupt things.

I have spent a portion of my life living through IRA terrorism and have had to evacuate banks and sections of the city I live in due to bomb scares etc.

Like I said earlier, a terrorists main aim is to strike fear (or terror) into people and if they can FORCE governments to act as what happened in Boston on a regular basis, then they are achieving a part of their objective.
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Old 05-02-2013, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Gillum View Post
Extreme situations call for extreme measures....

Monday morning quarterbacks are very prolific with their advice...
generally from someone who has never had to deal with emergency situations....
The PTB are counting on guys like you, saying things like that.
It makes it easier for them to trample all over your supposed "rights".
However, if your "rights" can so easily be suspended, then they aren't rights at all, just temporary privileges.
If you can not defend your own rights when you need to defend them the most, then you have no rights.

It's easier to attack the messenger and dismiss their comments by calling them names like "Monday morning quarterback".
But ad hominem attacks like that won't get you your rights back, will they?
Addressing the root causes of the problem might, but that requires some effort.

And I guess you can add the founders of your country and framers of your constitution to that list of "Monday morning quarterbacks" you're keeping, since they didn't have to deal with the terr'rists in Boston either.
But you know what.... I think I'll side with them on this one.

Ron Paul gets "it". He's trying to wake the citizenry up. That's why he's being attacked.
Unfortunately, he has to be louder and more compelling than the folks in Boston chanting "U! S! A!, U! S! A!" as the soundtrack to the loss of their own freedoms.
In our dumbed down society, that's a tough act to follow.
 
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Old 05-02-2013, 08:05 AM
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Bleeding hearts are the major problem with this country now....
Radicals feed that....
There are rights and there are rights....

There is also public safety.....
Consider searching for an armed murder with crowded streets....

And yes ..Monday morning....
hindsight is always 20/20.....

Our people need to "harden up" a bit more and grow some stones...(starting in Washington).....
Whatever it takes to stop the bad guys.....the real murdering blood bathing bad guys..

These killers give up their rights when they pull the trigger...
(Innocent until proven guilty, of course)
In so many of these cases there is no doubt.....guilt is very clear...

I have seen more victims than I care to remember....
And their rights....
Who speaks for them?
.
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Old 05-02-2013, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Gillum View Post
Bleeding hearts are the major problem with this country now....
Radicals feed that....
There are rights and there are rights.....
I have a different view on this Jim.

The most important step is a very efficient counter-terrorism department, which mean the intel is the primary priority.

I am not sure you read the article I posted. The authority catched one of the terrorist because a citizen called, which mean that the authorities didn't by itself find the guy.

The lesson from many terrorism activity cases, should emphasize the way citizen joint to help authorities, not brutal and injustified intervention door by door in innocent citizen houses, which was inefficient. The key is important citizenry participation to help authorities.

If I may, here is a very good article to read:

France: Europe's Counterterrorist Powerhouse

http://www.aei.org/article/foreign-a...st-powerhouse/
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Old 05-02-2013, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Gillum View Post
Bleeding hearts are the major problem with this country now....
Radicals feed that....
There are rights and there are rights....

There is also public safety.....
Consider searching for an armed murder with crowded streets....

And yes ..Monday morning....
hindsight is always 20/20.....

Our people need to "harden up" a bit more and grow some stones...(starting in Washington).....
Whatever it takes to stop the bad guys.....the real murdering blood bathing bad guys..

These killers give up their rights when they pull the trigger...
(Innocent until proven guilty, of course)
In so many of these cases there is no doubt.....guilt is very clear...


I have seen more victims than I care to remember....
And their rights....
Who speaks for them?
.
.
.



In so many of these cases there is no doubt.....guilt is very clear...


the above should never enter the conscious of an "armed" police person - they are to bring to Justice, they are not themselves Justice.
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Old 05-02-2013, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Gillum View Post
Bleeding hearts are the major problem with this country now....
Radicals feed that....
There are rights and there are rights....
Not quite sure what you're trying to say, there.
"There are rights and there are rights."

Sounds like double speak to me. Perhaps you could clarify a bit?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Gillum View Post
There is also public safety.....
Consider searching for an armed murder with crowded streets....
It's called policing. It happens every single day in some cities, without locking them down or invoking martial law or violating the rights of the innocent.
I'm shocked that I find myself explaining that to an ex-cop.
Did you ever, in all your days as a police officer, act in the same manner that we saw in Boston?
I'll bet you got lots of bad guys without the need to violate the rights of the good guys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Gillum View Post
These killers give up their rights when they pull the trigger...
(Innocent until proven guilty, of course)
In so many of these cases there is no doubt.....guilt is very clear...
Innocent until proven guilty....
Unless, of course, you are a resident of Boston.
In that case, you are guilty until a militarized cop is satisfied that you are innocent.
There is no other way to explain people being forced from their homes at gunpoint and forced to endure illegal searches of their home and property without having done anything wrong.
Being told to remain prisoners in your own home on lockdown until the government says it's safe to go back out?
If that is what is required to combat terrorism, I'd rather take my chances, thanks.
What good is "freedom" when it is fleeting and subject to conditions placed by government agencies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Gillum View Post
I have seen more victims than I care to remember....
And their rights....
Who speaks for them?
.
.
.
I have no doubt you've seen more than your share of evil in your line of work. That's sad.
But speaking out for and defending the victims of crime should not entail violating others.
That just creates more victims to speak out for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Breeze Wood View Post
In so many of these cases there is no doubt.....guilt is very clear...


the above should never enter the conscious of an "armed" police person - they are to bring to Justice, they are not themselves Justice.
I may want to shave my head with a cheese grater later for saying this, but I agree with Breeze, here.
 
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Old 05-02-2013, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScriptMan View Post
... The fact that the precedent might be used in future cases ...
Might be?

"Lockdown" is the new normal.

Quote:
...
Authorities spent Saturday night and into Sunday conducting a door-to-door sweep of homes scattered across hilly terrain, checking storage sheds and horse stables, and even searching attics.

"It is a difficult area to search, it's rural, remote," sheriff's Capt. Jim Macedo said.

Mass notifications alerted residents about the incident and the search for the suspect, officials said.

"I was working on my tractor and a CHP copter kept flying over my house," area resident Roger Ballew, 35, told The Associated Press on Sunday.

A SWAT team showed up at his house Saturday night and told him to stay inside, Ballew said.

"It was nerve-wracking, I didn't sleep well," he said.
...
http://www.newser.com/article/da5v2t...n-n-calif.html

That's from a rural area in California after an 8 year old girl was found dead. Paramilitary police / DHS don't need no stinking badges warrants.
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