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View Poll Results: Bradley Manning & Edward Snowden / Patriots Or Traitors
Patriots 5 71.43%
Traitors 1 14.29%
Neither 1 14.29%
Voters: 7. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-11-2013, 08:26 AM
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Bradley Manning & Edward Snowden / Patriots Or Traitors

Bradley Manning & Edward Snowden / Patriots Or Traitors

We've all heard of Bradley Manning and, by now, I assume we've all heard of Edward Snowden.
He's the lad who exposed the NSA spying.

So, are these guys heroes? Patriots? Traitors? None of the above?

What say you?

The poll is private, by the way. (That is, if anything's private these days)
 
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Old 06-11-2013, 10:33 AM
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I wouldn't judge anyone action.

If it was me, I would not say anything and enjoy living in Hawaii making around $80,000 paid.
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Old 06-11-2013, 10:37 AM
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That's a very honest response.
 
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Old 06-11-2013, 12:47 PM
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If we stay silent we invite the government corruption to continue....
Heros expose the actions of a renegade reckless operation that exceeds the bound of public "protection"...

Sort of like an expanding police state.....
Or an "Adolf" process....
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Old 06-11-2013, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Zap View Post
That's a very honest response.
Well I think many people will do the same. The problem of exposing classified information whatever how ugly it is to your own people, you have to think that you also give information to the ennemies.
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Old 06-11-2013, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Brave7 View Post
Well I think many people will do the same. The problem of exposing classified information whatever how ugly it is to your own people, you have to think that you also give information to the ennemies.
I think this is a unique case.
We all knew (or, at least, should have known) it was happening.
So, the only truly new information brought to the table was proof of what we already knew.
And you can bet that China also knew the US was spying on its own citizens.
 
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Old 06-11-2013, 03:59 PM
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I'm not sure you can or should clump the two together.

I felt one way about Bradley Manning and I have a much different attitude about Edward Snowden. Admittedly I may be splitting hairs here but it is my opinion.
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Old 06-11-2013, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zap View Post
I think this is a unique case.
We all knew (or, at least, should have known) it was happening.
So, the only truly new information brought to the table was proof of what we already knew.
And you can bet that China also knew the US was spying on its own citizens.
I mean many people will do the same and say nothing. Exactly some of us know that each governement are monitoring their citizens, the only think we didn't know exactly was the scale.

Anything the Americans are doing is gigantic
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Old 06-12-2013, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScriptMan View Post
I'm not sure you can or should clump the two together.

I felt one way about Bradley Manning and I have a much different attitude about Edward Snowden. Admittedly I may be splitting hairs here but it is my opinion.
I suspect there are a lot of people who feel as you do and I have a theory about that.
Not about you, but about the sentiment and why I think it's shared by so many.
(One of the reasons I chose to lump them together in this thread)

1. Do you suppose that timing might be a factor in your feelings?
You, perhaps, learned about Bradley Manning before learning of some of the more blatant attacks on the constitution, so when Edward Snowden came along, you may have been more accepting of his position?

and

2. Do you think because the constitution was more directly in peril (at least, to the visible eye) with Snowden that it makes more of a difference?
Bradley Manning exposed atrocities (which are probably against the constitution, but maybe not so openly against it that most people see it immediately) but these atrocities happened to other people, outside the US and in a war zone.
While Edward Snowden exposed actions that can directly be traced back to the fourth amendment and are in clear violation of it, on American soil, against Americans.


As an outsider (non-American), it was pretty clear to me from the beginning that both Bradley Manning and Edward Snowden were patriots who saw something wrong and realized that they only had the one option they took.
(I've heard people who are calling Snowden a traitor say that he should have gone up the chain of command instead of going public or gone to the authorities. That suggestion is laughable to anyone who's been paying attention to what's been going on.)
It's true what they say.
Truth is treason in an empire of lies.
These men are both truth tellers, who put the country before their own personal needs.
I believe that history will tell a very different story than what the media is saying today.
 
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Old 06-12-2013, 06:09 AM
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For me it is more along the lines that Manning was in the military and swore to follow orders.

Snowden is a private citizen, not in the military and not even a government employee. As such he has freedom both morally and legally. Though the government will try to squash both.
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Old 06-12-2013, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
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For me it is more along the lines that Manning was in the military and swore to follow orders.
True enough, but didn't we decide after WWII that "I was just following orders." wasn't a valid excuse?
The Nuremburg trials played that out for us.
Aren't soldiers in the military obligated to refuse unlawful orders?
Admittedly, it's murky territory because of the war zone, but atrocities were clearly being committed.

I can tell you that I see very little difference in how the media is treating both individuals.
And I see zero difference in how the authorities are treating both cases.
 
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Old 06-12-2013, 06:45 AM
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Clearly the "I was just following orders." defense is not valid. We all accept that. If I recall correctly Manning potentially place people in harms path with his revelations.

Snowden is more of a whistle blower for acts that if true should anger a lot of common folks.

Quote:
I can tell you that I see very little difference in how the media is treating both individuals.
And I see zero difference in how the authorities are treating both cases.
I mostly agree with that. An oppressive government must squash them both.

Now that you and I are having all our keystrokes monitored will you amend your actions any?
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Old 06-12-2013, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
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Now that you and I are having all our keystrokes monitored will you amend your actions any?
Funny you should mention that.
I've known of the need for quite some time and have discussed this with friends of mine in the past.
I have to admit... I do self censor sometimes, because I know we're all being watched.
Not always. Sometimes, I just can't keep quiet about something. But it does place a filter between my brain and my keyboard.
 
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:40 AM
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Do you express yourself near any microchip? The dishwasher, the Fridge or stove could be listening according to an article I read.
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Old 06-12-2013, 09:03 AM
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Do you express yourself near any microchip? The dishwasher, the Fridge or stove could be listening according to an article I read.
Interesting. I haven't seen any articles along those lines.
Long shot, I know, but if you still have a link to that article, I wouldn't mind reading it.
On the surface, I suppose it's theoretically possible for chips in the appliances to communicate my words to some outside source, but I'm guessing that's not really within the realm of probability just yet.
At least, not unless a specific person becomes a "person of interest".


But, if I seriously want to have a completely private conversation, then I would only do that in person, using voice, and nowhere within earshot of a cell phone.
(And after the latest hooplah about the XBox 1, I wouldn't have that conversation near a game console, either.)
 
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Old 06-12-2013, 09:09 AM
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For your reading enjoyment: http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_te...petraeus_.html
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Old 06-12-2013, 09:23 AM
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Cool. Thanks ScriptMan.
I was thinking about smart appliances when you mentioned that, but knew that smart appliances would have to come into wide usage first.
That makes it easy for them because you pay the cost of connecting them to the grid and bear the burden of it.
With existing appliances, they have to bear the cost and burden of hookup.
(Which I'm sure they would do in the person of interest cases that required it because the POI was aware of the internet and cell phone monitoring.)

Anyone else feel like watching a James Bond movie now?
 
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Old 06-12-2013, 09:38 AM
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Thanks ScriptMan, great article.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zap View Post
Anyone else feel like watching a James Bond movie now?
Not really, but it will be a great movie subject for Tom Clancy

So, is anyone feeling now that we are all in a electronic virtual prison?
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Old 06-12-2013, 09:40 AM
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I cant consider the two as one case because their actions bear marked differences. Manning disclosed reams upon reams of covert documents the contents of which even he didnt know. I believe his intent was to harm the country. Snowden just disclosed the existence of a secret practice the bureaucrats clamed they were not doing. I happen to think the practice revealed violates the oath the bureacrats took.

Just dont see the two as having committed the same offense. Thats not an argument on the legality of the actions... Both imo committed an illegal action. Manning is under a different code as far as trial... The UCMJ vs the US criminal codes. Will be interesting to see how it plays out for both.

Fwiw, i dont think the focus on Snowden is where we need to be. I want to know (1) why my government thinks it can ignore the 4th amendment. And (2) why James Clapper hasnt been charged with lying to congress and lying under oath when he very clearly said the NSA does NOT collect ANY kind of data on millions of Americans. We now know that to have been a flat out lie... Under oath... To a congressional oversight committee. THAT is a crime.
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Old 06-12-2013, 09:45 AM
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To provide a little clarification, here's an analogy of the difference in the actions...

MANNING: Feels all animals should be free... Slips in and opens all the cages freeing them all, including dangerous predators and poisonous snakes.

SNOWDEN: finds out the zoo has an eagle in the back room that they are torturing. The zookeeper has sworn under oath they do not have an eagle and would never torture an animal. Snowden sneaks in and releases the animal they supposedly dont have.
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